Comments on: Ahoy! Pirate Party gets berth in European Parliament

In Sunday's elections, the Swedish Pirate Party gains a seat in Brussels on its program of reforming copyright law and getting rid of the patent system.

[rdupuy11]

Even though its difficult to achieve the same success in the United States, because we do not have a proportional representation system...nevertheless the same sentiment applies here.

Many people don't want to only think about how to protect the monopoly of content creators, but also want to balance that with thinking about how to update our ancient laws for the internet age, and allow the spread of culture.

Frankly, the only updates we've done so far, were written by out-of-touch people who don't even use the internet that much. They've enraged the people that do understand the issues, and whats at stake.

RIAA should probably realize that they are sealing their own doom, they can can sue everyone and their mothers, but the law will just be changed.

[aj37viggen]

Yes, the United States should certainly seek similar reforms to make sure that citizens are free to steal any intellectual property they want.

But why stop there? Why not allow the "non-commercial" stealing of personal belongings, cars, money, etc? Bernie Madoff could be our campaign poster boy.

The only real problem with these reforms is how to get intellectual-property producers to keep on producing when they know that they are forbidden from benefitting economically from their work. (These, presumably, are the "out-of-touch" people who don't understand the issues and who haven't yet updated their thinking about ancient stuff like needing to pay the rent.) But throw a few of them into forced-labor camps and I'll bet the rest of them would modernize their thinking very quickly!

[ralfthedog]

viggen, it is not about stealing. I have never once pirated software be it code, music or movies (Other than one time I was paid to hack into a computer to prove it was stolen by an employee from a state agency. I did not use the software I just collected it as evidence). The real pirates are the RIAA and even more the MPAA.

They steal our rights to move the music and moves we buy from one device to another.

They steal our rights to make backups of our movies and would steal our rights to backup music if they could.

They steal our rights to take snippits from movies and use them for commentary and educational purposes.

It is time for the current music and movie industry to die. Those of us who have talent can and will be able to create better content if we are not forced to filter our work through a bunch of useless gate keepers who's only job is to remove any artistic merit, intellectual value and creativity from anything presented to the public.

PS. The MPAA/RIAA are all a bunch of cat sniffers (That's right, you guys all sniff cats!)

[Renegade Knight]

@aj37viggen

You are more right than you know. Corporate media gets in it's own way. Steals the IP of others (Web 2.0 media firms are a a prime example of how to jack IP for corporate profit) and so on.

When you step back from the myopic picture you are thinking of and realize that IP is all around and that the vast majority of it plays by the rules you are complaining about then, and only then, will you realize the truth of things.

[pithenumber]

@viggen
the MPAA says making a backup of a DVD is piracy, ***

[JoeF2]

@aj37viggen:

May I suggest you read up on the history of Hollywood?
The movie producers who came out here were an early form of pirates. They didn't want to pay royalties to the East Coast companies that owned the rights, so they set up shop in the "Wild West" where they could ignore the requests for royalties.
So, it only has come full circle.

[ezeq22]

Just as Disney loves to steal from the Public Domain and then lock down public stories and our culture for centuries? Who is really doing the stealing from who? When you look at the bigger picture there are some extremely troubling issues which simply labeling this as a downloader-theft problem is overlooking.

Another example- there is something really troubling when a company can take a sample of your DNA, patent it, and then sue you if you do anything with you own DNA (There are several cases of this already). This is leading to a corporate dystopia and there certainly are limits to how much companies can steal from the public before individual rights and freedoms are trampled completely. I live in the home of the free. I only ask that my fellow American's be brave in resisting the intellectual property producers in locking down my freedoms and a free and open culture of my future.

[vadik78]

Even better example:
- Develop a new strain of crops (either genetically engineer or using the conventional selection process);
- Patent the strain;
- Give the crop to a farmer for free;
- Cross pollination will spread the crop to near-by farms;
- Sue nearby farms, ordering them to a) stop the sale of the product, b) destroying all seeds that collect from the farm.

Patent should protect real infringement (e.g. the farmer "borrows" seeds from his neighbor an breeds then to create more seeds for his field). However, recent lawsuits established a precedent that it does not matter why a farmer has patented crops. If they have it, they are liable for patent infringement. So if a wind pollinated your field, you are out of luck... you belong to a corporation

[madeinttown]

ezeq22 & vadik78, do you have links for these or more information that may point me in the right direction? They sound like an interesting read.

[ralfthedog]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=D21&ei=mDEtSrC_GorYMN3BydEJ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=monsanto+patent+crosspollination&spell=1

[Renegade Knight]

@vadik78

Said farmers should countersue for damages caused by the harm being caused by the cross polination.

Oh and since genes arleady exist it's a great example of what should not be patented.

[ezeq22]

@madeinttown
Here is a specific newsprint story. The individual cases might be a little less easy of a read...
CNN Story on Human Gene Patents- http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/13/genes.patent.myriad/index.html

[lthornto]

For centuries musicians made there living by performing. Maybe they should go back to worrying about doing a good show instead of how much they should make from recordings, or in Garth Brooks' case the resell of used CD's. I like his music but I will never buy one of his CD's.
The Grateful Dead always allowed the free sharing of concert tapes and for decades they made millions from their tours.

[Renegade Knight]

Most musicians still do. It's not the musicians (for the most part) who are creating the problems. It's corporate media.

I work with no less than 4 performing musicians. When it comes to how they view media they are like everone else. Of course none of them are rock stars. Just ones who play local and enjoy performing.

[Police_States_of_America]

copyright in the US lasts over a hundred years, copyright in the EU lasts 85 years. this is completely unreasonable.

[YlanSthlm]

I am one of those, who a year ago wouldn't dream of voting for Piratpartiet. And I think we need some form of copyright law.

We have however seen some pieces of legislation passed by supposedly liberal (as in liberal, not left wing) parties, that I find seriously violate my civil rights.

Since the left and right agree on that the government should read my electronic communication and that commercial interests may search my house (something not even the police may do, unless they suspect me of serious crime), I have only Piratpartiet and the communist party (sic!) to choose from. And since I am no communist, Piratpartiet is my choice.

We mustn't give government the right to take away our rights. And not let the RIAA et al. govern government.

Humbly, Ylan

[redmarine]

Hopefully it's only a matter of time before the Pirates destroy all the patents.

Europe will be far more capable of dealing with a society without patents than the United States. The United States are far behind when it comes to politics than Europe and lets itself be controlled by companies e.g. entertainment business and Microsoft(no offence Microsoft).

It's a wonderful time to live in Europe!

Sorry for my poor English.

[Michichael]

Well unfortunately for us, our country is only just over 200 years old - the rest of Europe has a far more aged system that has dealt with some of the issues we're apparently trying to deal with in a new way. We definitely need new blood in the political ring here in the US.

[sanenazok]

@Michichael: uhm the US was the first modern democracy. Places like Sweden and ahem Germany were ruled by kings and dictators until after WWII.

[Sjodan]

@sanenazok: http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/%e2%80%9cworld%e2%80%99s-oldest-democracy%e2%80%9d-the-myth-the-reality/

[sanenazok]

@Sjodan: Wow a diatribe by some Indian communists, no way they don't support the US? You mean the Indians think their system is the world's oldest democracy? OK. What a surprise. Democracy does not require full suffrage. Anyways, what India's doing kinda doesn't matter, sorry. It's important regionally, but we're comparing US with Europe here. None of the European countries had a government that approached democracy anywhere that of the US, which was the point of the original comment.

[shootfirst]

Dude we should start up a US version of the Pirate Party. I for one am sick of not being able to do what I want with my digital media. If I want to give a copy to a friend to use I should be able to. If I want to back up my media I should be able to. If I want to modify code so a program works better instead of waiting for idiots to get off their butts I should be able to. I never agreed to follow DMCA or any of these BS laws made by greedy corporate suits, yet how else am I going to play a CD, download a song or watch a movie. I agree they should get their fair share for a good product, but I'm not paying for some dousche to drive a porsche while I drive a beat up pile. I am tired of musicians and artists getting paid more money than I can dream of and having to read about them complaining of their intellectual property being stolen. Face the facts we the people want to be able to do things with media that are not out of the scope of doing so and to limit them and their creativity is just a form of oppression we should be fighting against. We will give your dues, but don't impose fines that we cannot possible pay. Do not place people in jail just for copying your media and reproducing it. Go catch the real criminals and focus attention on making the world better not thru greed, but openness and freedom from BS tyranny!

[sanenazok]

Dude do it. Oh no, work is hard. Well I guess not.

[Sjodan]

Here in Sweden we can do these things quite easily by just taking a strong political standpoint and letting the idea take root in the minds of our people, like PP is doing right now and Miljöpartiet ("the enviromental party" i guess would be the translation) did close to three decades ago.

Doing so in the US with its two party situation might be a tad difficult... Maybe in the individual states it would be possible to make a difference somehow, I don't know enough to give an informed opinion. I would hope so seeing as how EU seem to be developing in to a very US-like entity and if it is practically impossible in the US it might be that it will soon be practically impossible in EU as well.

[zelrik]

Those who think 'piracy' is bad should really try to know how much an artist is paid per CD sold compared to the actual prize of the CD.
They should also realize that calling people criminals for holding information is pure fascism.

[Michichael]

This business model is archaic and dying. The RIAA/MPAA are the only ones that profit from this model. Artists are finding that they can now, more easily and cheaply, distribute and profit from their content online.

[opiapr]

Congratulations to the Swedish hope we can make the same here someday thats true democracy.

[averad]

Copy write laws are ridiculous. Businesses should be expected to have to offer a better product or improved service or risk going out of business if someone else can do it cheaper, better and faster.

Build It. Share It. Profit. Can Open Source Hardware Work?
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/startups/magazine/16-11/ff_openmanufacturing?currentPage=4

[Yelonde]

As much as I am a music pirate, I believe that creating a political party for it is quite ridiculous.

[Sjodan]

That is because you (like oh so many others) think that the issue is about wanting free stuff.... It isn't... It is about freedom, integrity and protection of the individual and the development of modern (sane) economy and business models.

Many say that PP is a "one trick pony", but it just so happens that that "one trick" is one that spans pretty much the entire spectrum of issues in one way or another.

[johnekaes]

Both patent law and copyright have not kept up with changes in technology. When writers could only distribute in printed matter it took years and years to make a large amount of money. But when you could have it on the web and make the equivalent in a week then you need to consider whether 100 years is too long. Shortening copyright for electronically distributed arts would likely stop most of the stealing (i suggest 4 years). As far a patents, if they are for a manufactured product that takes hardware to make they should stay at the 16 and all other patents should all be shortened to 4 years also-it would stop the patenting of ideas just to lock a market.

[Daral0085]

Getting rid of patent law is a really bad idea, because it would pretty much mean the end of commercial R+D. It's completely untenable.

The best solution I can think of would be to shorten the duration of patents to something like 3-6 years, depending on how long it takes to recoup R+D investment.

Perhaps a more radical redesign would be appropriate as well. However, if patent law were completely removed, then business would have a strong incentive to conceal their research, which would hinder it from entering the public domain, to the detriment of all.

As for removing copyright law, that would require all content creators (musicians, programmers, artists, authors, etc) to either develop alternative business models or go out of business. The very easy with which people can copy around electronic media makes the problem more difficult. Ultimately, online distribution only really works if there is some mechanism to limit the distribution to those who pay. If there's no copyright, then there's nothing to ensure that the content creators get paid.

[sanenazok]

This is a total non-story when you take into context the nature of the European Parliament. It's a dumping ground for people looking to earn a pension. One guy out of a parliament of 790 is meaningless. He'll make a couple of minute-long speeches in front of a chamber with 40% of the MEP's present. Further, the parliament hasn't ever initiated anything worthwhile. The non-elected Council of Europe is in charge and has absolute veto power. Maybe in a post-Lisbon parliament he might make a slight difference.

[victor_sf]

very well said

[RighteousSoutherner]

There's a motley socialist crew for you, lol. Only Europeans would allow something like this to take place!

[RighteousSoutherner]

Socialists on the march! LOL!!

[magicmaster]

The nightmare of copyright is that copyright holders are lobbying for longer duration of copyright protection. They basically monopolize the knowledge, suing anyone for anything they find fit.

[X-C3PO]

Not Surprised!, I think the EU itself is a big Pirate Party, use monopoly or unfair competition reason to fine IT companies big Money. I bet the EU will continue to do it.... next will Google. Then circle back to MS, Intel Google ...
US companies become ATM for EU?

[jtjt145]

Go pirates go ... it's time the corporate monopolists get their limits shown!
Although don't expect many changes here in the US, as the Obama/Biden team seems to be already bought into Micro$oft and the MAFIAA organizations.

Sad, really.

[slxzmv]

@sanenazok
Just to clarify: Sweden is monarchy but also a democracy. The roots of the modern Riksdag (parliament) is from 1435. But each "county" had other assemblies long before that where "all free men" could participate. The last king with a lot of political power was removed from office 1809.

Prominent old swedish freedom laws include:

Sweden's Freedom of the Press Act of 1766 is thought to be the oldest Freedom of information legislation

http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord/smorgasbord/natrecspo/nature/every.html
must of course be mentioned, although it just became part of the Swedish constitution in 1994. Have been a customary law since the "beginning of time"

So also Sweden has a long history of freedom

[sanenazok]

The 15th Century Swedish diet was based on classes and remained so until the mid 1800's. Also, it was subservient to the monarch, who decided everything except taxation. In order to extract taxes European monarchs had no choice but to agree to various diets. If 15th century Sweden was a democracy then so was Austria-Hungary, Prussia, etc., all of which had these assemblies. Sure there may have been civil rights, as there are in China now (especially the right to own property), but that doesn't make a democracy.

[slxzmv]

Yes, you are absolutley right that the swedsih king had most of the power for long times (1523-1718, 1772-1809), maybe I was a bit unclear but I never ment it was a democracy in the 15th century. However the class system was not as dominant as in many other countries. Except for the king, the same laws applied to everyone, everybody (male) could vote and be a member of Riksdagen or rise to any other office in the goverment.

Also one clarification to your previuos post: No part of sweden at any time was occupeid by the nazis or anybody else during WWII, the democratically choosen goverment worked well during that whole sad time.

Anyway no matter when a country became a democracy, it is still important to learn from each other, to defend our freedom and democratic principles as being discussed here.

[sanenazok]

I agree with you, no government's perfect. Sweden certainly had the luxury of being neutral during WWII, as far as I'm concerned no major European government remained completely democratic during the depression years.