Comments on: Why I want the Palm Pre to succeed

Apple and Palm may be on a collision course over the Pre's functionality. But at least one person supports Palm in its fight: Don Reisinger.

[rapier1]

Okay, I think its important to realize that the latest patent awarded to apple does *NOT* cover things like pinch to zoom and other aspects of the multi-touch UI. At all.

It covers the 1d to 2d mode switching for single finger swipes. For example, if you swipe in the vertical it ignores horizontal finger motion and vice versa. However, if you start with a diagonal swipe it moves the screen freely in two dimensions. This is the totality of what the patent covers. As such, this statement "Apple was recently awarded a patent that covers many of the iPhone's multitouch functionality, including the zoom functions and swiping currently found in Palm's Pre" is mostly incorrect. An aspect of swiping was covered - not swiping and zooming in general.

[why do i need a name?]

Oh, seriously....


Even apple acknowledges in the patent that was issued that there is plenty of art out there on many of the aspects of their granted patent. US 6,690,387 to Philips covered using the finger to scroll a page in the direction of a finger slide. US 7,088,344 to IBM covered scrolling an image that is outside of the viewable area. Sony has a couple in there as well. AND THESE ARE CITED IN THE APPLE PATENT as prior art (where theirs is different) The claims in the Apple patent are somewhat narrowed by this. Would be interesting to see the prosecution history to see where the claims were narrowed and what the examiners said. Of course, no one will do that work until they are the target of an action from Apple as it's expensive.

End result: I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Apple to sue Palm over this.....

[NY_Bry]

I agree with the competition idea. From a consumers point of view, it does seem like these other companies just slopped together some phone, gave it touch screen functionality, and self proclaimed it a smartphone. While the iphone is very good (not great) it is about time another company gives apple some real competition. If for no other reason than to force apple to come up with a great new iphone.

As far as patents go, if the code is just a little bit different from apple's and palm called it "squeeze" instead of "pinch", "spin" instead of "rotate", "slide" instead of "swipe" (as named in Apple's patent for multi-touch/touch gesture) then shouldn't any legal action be moot? I mean, every car has a steering wheel with a horn -- is anybody threatening to sue an auto maker over use of the same idea?

[yreguy]

Keep in mind, it's taken TWO YEARS(since it's introduction) for anyone to come up with a "close competitor" in the minds of reviewers and consumers...

[fixmdude]

Agree 100%

[to_much_time]

same here!

[jakebala]

I understand that apple has the patent but I don't logically see how the "pinch zoom" could possibly be patented or the "swipe" gesture could be patented either.

both of those gestures are simply part of logic. Both of those gestures exist in real life whether it be for film where artists use their fingers to understand depth of screen or simply shuffling papers left and right on your desk.

Take the storm for example. For the calendar you swipe left or right to change months. There is no other gesture that could make sense. What else is going to happen? A patent on the scrolling? No longer can the flick be used for other devices?

I understand that apple innovated the flick and the gesture but that doesn't mean that they should be able to own them. Similarly to how in videogames a company owning the patent for 1st person shooting. That could never make sense.

[jjrodrigo]

I agree with this comment and all other comments along the same line of reasoning. I don't understand how one can patent a gesture. I can understand if they want to patent the SOFTWARE that recognizes the gestures and reacts accordingly. Microsoft recently announced a new product called Microsoft Surface which has a lot of the same gestures that are used on the iPhone. Certain things you do on a phone only have one MAYBE two logical ways of gesturing on a touchscreen. If gestures are allowed to be patented, I know of a few gestures that are used quite frequently that I would like to patent. ;o)

[hhemmati]

the problem with iphone is that it's a half assed product. it's not exactly an ipod and it's not exactly a smartphone. I mean you they boost their ipod features but they miss stereo bluetooth that i have had since my palm 650. they say they are the best smartphone but not only they don't have copy/paste they didn't have exchange support till the second generation and even with the upgrade it doesn't work right. for those of you who think virtual keyboard is cool let me tell you something when you type a lot of emails on daily basis tapping on glass all day long causes nerve irritation something blackberry users who are heaving email users are finding out with storm. so the way iphone stands as of now is only a cool toy not really a true smartphone. Palm on the other hand has always been a great business phone just lost it's cool because it didn't look flashy. I have mad respect for the company. they barely had the budget to keep their current inventory and on top of that they invented a phone better than what we were expecting from them. On the other hand apple with their massive cash to burn hasn't even addressed some basic functionality that the phone is missing not new innovations. the fact that they tell people you don't need to send text message with pictures is ridiculous. i don't know how that's innovation to me that's enforcing what you believe is the right thing to do. I have been given one and i hate the fact that the phone is so limited. it's like buying a Ferrari and drive through school zones all day long.

[yreguy]

I literally could not read your comment. Please learn punctuation and GRAMMAR!

[Ed M.]

I've stated all this before on other forums, and I still believe that the direction that Palm plans on taking the Pre is still somewhat unclear, and does in fact raise a bunch of (albeit compound) questions. For example:

- What does Palm plan to do with their existing, dated hardware that run completely different OSs? What about the software for those OSs and devices, will it be jettisoned in favor of this new hardware and new OS? What impact will that have on the current Palm user-base?

If Palm decides to support the older stuff, isn't it likely that it will induce the very same problems that plagued them in the past when there was just way too much variation among the OSs as well as variation among their devices?

- To what extent will the Pre platform be "open"?

I've posted my thoughts elsewhere on why I believe this "openness" comes with some rather interesting tradeoffs; especially with respect to Android. Pre stands a much better chance of dealing with all those drawbacks that will likely plague Android because Palm's new OS will likely only be limited to Palm hardware (unlike Android where it's likely to run on many disparate devices). On the other hand, they will face similar obstacles and drawbacks depending on how many different carriers they hope to partner with and how many different devices will sport their new OS.

As I've stated elsewhere on the net regarding Android... Like Android, the Pre platform can indeed be completely open - as open as anything can be. However, in the end, there is nothing stopping the various carriers, providers and partners that Palm deals with from imposing their own restrictions, guidelines and requirements (etc.) as they see fit. This will all undoubtedly affect interoperability among users on different devices using different carriers, and has the potential to affect the overall end-user experience in a very negative way. And that's just for the carriers and providers. What about app. developers that will need to support their apps. across (potentially) different devices and different carriers all with their own ideas about what's going to be allowed and what isn't and what software will be supported and what won't?

Depending on how many different devices need to be supported, coupled with whatever restrictions etc. that the various carriers impose; what incentive will developers have to maintain parity (not to mention interoperability) among all the potential variation that may occur? Can anyone say: "FRAGMENTATION" ??

- What about potential security issues among providers and developers that are expected to maintain parity and interoperability? I do believe it might be easier for Palm to address this and less so for Google/Andrid.

- With all these questions considered, how does Palm hope to make things simpler and easier for the end-user while at the same time providing such a positive user experience that consumers will just want to run out and buy it?

And what about third-party hardware support for the Pre and any future Palm device(s)? iPhone/iPod clearly has the advantage, and it's been suggested that this advantage is due in large part to its universal dock connector, the overall form factor(s) as well as the specific number of devices across the product line.

All of these aspects are often overlooked. I read a blog entry by John C. Welch where he was discussing why no one has been able to shatter iPod dominance yet - and it made perfect sense. To an extent, much of what he says just might hold true for iPhone as well. If you want to read his take on it, all you need to do is Google "iDevelopers! iDevelopers! iDevelopers!" and "John C. Welch"

Without a thriving third-party hardware ecosystem, i doubt that the Pre will be anything more than a pipe-dream.

--
Ed

[oneAwake]

Hey Ed

Follow this link:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=6592&uid=32915930478

It is a Q&A on facebook specifically for the Pre, I believe today is the last day for the Q&A!

[disposableidentity]

Just because you think it would be "good for competition" to violate the intellectual property someone worked hard to develop, doesn't mean it should be legal.

In fact, the whole point of granting patent protection to inventions, is to give people an incentive to invest the time and effort to create something new. We as a society grant them a period of exclusivity to market the invention, so that later we can all benefit from it.

Palm, RIM, Microsoft, etc. are all free to compete. They just shouldn't rip off other people's patented inventions. Apple worked hard to reinvent the phone, why shouldn't they benefit from that?

[whizkid454]

And at the rate Apple's going, a monopoly is sure to ensue. You can't patent common sense. The best thing to do is see what happens in the coming months.

[EvilAl]

disposableidentity you're mistaking reinventing with taking existing smart phone ideas glossing them up and mareting them really well.

the iPhone is a great smart phone and it really improved on the touch interface but suing people to stop them from using swiping motions to scroll side to side or pinching to zoom is couterproductive. It seems like a natural progression for these devices to take now that multi touch is becoming the standard.

I hope this lawsuit blows over because with how good the pre is looking I think it'll push apple to fix some of the shortcomings with the iPhone.

[disposableidentity]

If all of these user interface innovations were such an obvious progression, why didn't anyone else design and implement them? There are a lot of very large companies with huge R&D budgets who's very existence depends on staying at the cutting edge of the phone industry. And yet it took a total outsider to re-think how we interact with mobile phones.

I agree that swiping to move up/down or left/right is an obvious extension of scrolling, but pinching to zoom seemed like a totally new UI idea. Same with little pop-up "tabs" that indicate which keys were pressed on a virtual keyboard. What about tilting the phone to change an app from a simple calculator (portrait) to a scientific calculator (landscape)? It seems obvious in hindsight, but then so does the Cotton Gin, radio, and the original telephone.

[gatoverdetodd]

I also agree that we need some similar competing devices on the market for the good of everyone. I have been, and currently am, a Palm user so it would be great to see Palm survive.

That said, I am now an open source user & advocate and the best thing about the G1 is not the hardware it is that the Operating System, Android, could theoretically be loaded onto any device. The G1 is just the first of these devices available built for Android and it may have some issues but many could theoretically be fixed with OS or software modifications. Also many other companies are developing Android phones and they will probably improve on any faults users are finding with the first generation G1 handsets.

[disposableidentity]

@jakebala, my understanding is that Apple doesn't own the actual gesture (obviously) jut that they own the way the software interprets and responds to that gesture made on a touch-sensitive display.

Being able to patent "pinch/zoom", seems logical to me, but as you say, flicking to expose information left or right, is essentially scrolling. There would seem to be prior art for that.

[ResinNation]

Apple has the patent. End of story.
There is no iPhone killer. There is no iPod killer (except possibly the iPhone.)

Pre, I'd like to introduce you to the Storm, the Zune, the Zen, and every other device that's tried to knock Apple from their horse.

[yreguy]

hahahahaHA

EPIC WIN

Don't forget the instinct! You already did? Oh well!

[rissa80]

I hope they make a pink one, cuz i'm savin up for it right now...I got the pink Palm Centro and I love it!!!

[bonesbautista]

There's a few companies - not Palm - that have been ripping off the iPhone interface, including one that's hitting the streets pretty soon - the Meizu M8. If you want to see a blatant ripoff, that's it - the Palm webOS isn't even close to using the cookie cutter that Meizu is using! Even down to the Multi-Touch interface!

Spend a little time at Engadget Mobile's "Keepin' It Real Fake" series will just blow any reader interested in Apple's blast over a bow. The Chinese government is benefitting from Apple's cash, and can't even keep its cloners in line. Apple, bring the jobs back home! Think of the legal fees you'll save!

[wvdf96a]

Couldn't agree more with this article.

But, its strange. On other topics (e.g. NYTimes bashing), the same author is really mis-guided.

[ozoneocean]

Even touchscreen phones weren't a fist. The whole "iphone" look was done by LG before the iphone came out. They had a very nice looking model that was quite popular. Not multi-touch (I don't think), but the "iphone" look was mentioned in the article in relation to touchscreen phones generally. It's important to realise that these companies aren't "copying" the iphone really, that's just an idea based on a common public perception. They're just going for the "touchscreen phone concept" which is popular right now that people want to own, like flip phones before and the type before that. They're not a genre of technology with Apple on top and everyone below- as the tech press seems to paint the scene as.

Yes they're all different and some things make them work better than others, but the hierarchy is made up.

[Millerboy]

The Palm Pre looks like an excellent phone. I can't wait for its release.

[yreguy]

You are instantly dooming yourself by going with Sprint. Wasted two years of money on them. I drew the line when a $497 phone bill showed up for two phones with a basic, 450 minute voice plan and unlimited texting(NOTHING ELSE).

[seah0rse]

Well if Apple sue them that will be the end of Palm, they are barely hanging on now. So if Apple lets them rip off their multi-touch IP they are effectively throwing them a lifeline. Apple revolutionize the smart phone space with technology they develop themselves and with fingerworks purchase and everyone wants to crucify them... LOL. I think that they have proven that they can innovate in the consumer tech space enogh to say bring it on... and let Palm have a go cause if they don't kiss Palm goodbye like win mo.

[poohbearr88]

Is Apple that scared and threatened? How can you patent something like that, sounds unreasonable. And yes, I totally agree that competition is good. Palm, go for it. I am waiting to get the Palm Pre. Wonder who paid the Patent office to accept the patent.

[AppleSuxLeo]

The Pre`s UI with the genius of turning running programs into re-sizable "cards" that can be dragged around and to close one you just flick it off the top of the screen. It isn`t just that the Pre multitasks , it`s the way in which it does it that is truly outstanding. And I`m sure that TI OMAP 3430 CPU has something to do with the fluidity of the OS. It runs at between 800-1000 megahertz and is of a much more advanced architecture as compared to the iPhone.

[yreguy]

Haha! Nice feigned knowledge there, applesuxleo.

[nsmoly]

speaking of who ripped from whom -- before iPhone there was (and there is) a big and not well known device called Microsoft Surface - http://www.microsoft.com/SURFACE/index.html
If you play with it, you'll find that Apple actually ripped off (or re-invented) most of its UI/touch from Microsoft Surface table. It is a big device and is for different market, but the basic UI is very similar. I am guessing that Microsoft patented most of it (or may be it was already know before and so it could not be patented) and so I don't quite see how Apple can sue Palm for something that was well known and was released before iPhone...

[whois101]

And before the Surface, others already did it before Microsoft cloned the concept.

[disposableidentity]

Yes, both Apple and Microsoft ripped off a company called FingerWorks who originally developed a lot of these concepts. The difference is, Apple bought the company and all it's patents.