Comments on: Will Windows 7 stymie Mac OS X's growth?

Is the new version of Microsoft's operating system on its way destined to hold Apple's Mac OS X back from continued market growth? Or will it inadvertently help its rival grow?

[TheForestFloor]

I think it's important to remember that Enterprise adoption is *exceedingly* slow, mainly due to the years of quality assurance testing that goes on. For example, a major multi-national bank (I won't say which, but it begins with a 'B', heh) has just *completed* its migration to XP as it's new standard, but over 50% of the machines in use internally still use Windows 2000. Large organizations that warehouse mission-critical data can't afford to get excited about or quickly deploy new operating systems. Windows 7 adoption won't really accelerate in this space for several years, as it needs to mature and companies have to be ready and willing to invest (at > $400 a seat, it's quite an investment) the time it takes to evaluate and upgrade all of its internal systems. Luckily for Microsoft, since most of these companies have skipped Vista adoption completely, they'll be crying out for an update; they just won't be able to deploy for a few more years.

[pithenumber]

volume licenses, buy one, install on hundreds

[tm_anon]

Or they could switch to Linux and spend no money and get back much much more. No volume licensing necessary as Linux distros are free for the most part.

[D3vildog699]

Tm_Anon:

I hear ya man, im all for linux. Even one company switching would get linux some more press, buuutt your gonna need a few IT guys who know Linux to get that installed. Which can be kinda rare with the windows grip on enterprise

[Starderup]

I disagree with the comment that Windows 7 still taxes a computer. The hardware requirements are much relaxed compared with Vista. As someone who has use just about every operating system out there, and is still a fan of the BEST (no, not OSX - Linux) I have to agree with everything the author says.
I installed the 64 bit version Saturday morning. No problems at all. It is fast, very well designed, and a very attractive interface. Good job, MS.

[stellar678]

One thing you've forgotten in the equation:

Before passing on the latest and greatest notebook to their customer, Hewlett-Packard will take Windows 7 and load it full of bloatware, trialware and other crap because they care less about their user's experiences and more about the money flowing in from the trial software vendors.

[D3vildog699]

So true... gah i hate Dell... next project, building my own lappy... >.<

[Zen-Masta]

stonefingers. Glad you are enjoying your mac. But obviously you didn't put much effort into seeing what was available to make music on windows, or movies for that matter. Windows Movie maker is the obvious freebie on windows. And for music there are tons of apps, and just to name a few, Sonar, FL Studio, Acid Pro, Acide Music Studio. And of course it all boils down to your abilities to use such programs, the OS is irrelevant.

[pecos-bill]

Not entirely true. OS X has far lower (better) latency in their audio frameworks than XP. No idea about future windoze. He wasn't referring to the OS, but the iLife package that comes with a new computer (retail $79). I also don't think he said that nothing existed in that space, but that the quality/features/ease of use as a whole were beyond compare (maybe with price factored in as there are lots of high end apps on both sides though even Apple's Pro apps can be daunting).

[copacetical]

The reason the Mac's market share has climbed is NOT dissatisfaction with Vista. It is simply that any user of a Microsoft operating system becomes an unsalaried employee of Microsoft.

Don't believe me? Check your pay envelope the next time you are paid. Is there a check there from Microsoft for your travails and suffering using MS Balloon or whatever?

I think not.

[D3vildog699]

What the hell are you talking about? I get no paycheck from MS... or envelope, And dammit i LIKE envelopes so i want mine!


... AND THE BALLOON

[KevLeviathan]

I'm posting this using Windows 7 from my Macbook Pro right now. Says something ;)
W7 is looking really good so far, but I'm not sure it will HURT Apple. Though it certainly will not be good for gaining any more converts.

[obmot]

Yes W7 will do very well, at least initially, because people like me who were suckered into Vista Ultimate Crap will - out of pure desperation - buy W7 to end the pain and agony we've endured.

I have a few wishes for W7: boot-up times <3-4 minutes on a 3.0GHz dual core 4GB ram system; fewer than 2-3 "updates" per week (always, of course, requiring system restart); UAC taken out, shot, and left to die; ability to "print" documents without having to manually reset printer port each time system is booted up; recognition of hardware, especially "untrusted" hardware of "unkown origin," for example, a MICROSOFT LIFECAM (oooooh Vista thinks MS Lifecam is sooooooo dangerous!); end of endless pop-ups and warnings; end of meaningless error messages; eliminating HD "hashes" wherein system completely freezes for 30 seconds every few minutes (excruciatingly irritating); an internet browser that doesnt randomly crash several times an hour.

This list could go on and on and on. It makes me wonder if anyone at MS who designed Vista Ultimate Crap actually ever used it? If W7 is another colossal FUBAR OS, I am going to just bag my PC and use my mac mini exclusively, you know, the one that has never crashed, recognizes all hardware, boots up in about 30 seconds (not 3-4 minutes AKA Vista Ultimate Crap), and is just such a delight to use compared to Vista Ultimate Crap.

[pithenumber]

more like <1 minute boot time

[tm_anon]

Don't toss your PC, put Ubuntu on it. It works, recognizes just about every piece of hardware you have, including the ones that don't have drivers made for the "better" Windows OS's, will continue to run quickly and will only prompt for UAC if you're doing something like installing a new program somewhere like the root user account folders or putting up your firewall. It takes roughly the same amount of time to boot up Ubuntu as it does to boot up XP and, when I say roughly, I mean that often it takes less time on my PC to boot up Ubuntu than it does to boot XP. Oh, the best part, when you install it and you find that your PC is running quickly but then you realize that your old OS seemed to run more quickly at first than it did after continued usage, forget your old logic. Linux runs quickly as long as you don't fill your entire hard drive. For the life of your PC, unless you fill the entire hard drive, you will never need to defrag it. If you get one of the 500 viable viruses which most likely have already been patched long before they were announced, you'll find complete instructions on removing it which are simple to follow when compared to instructions for Windows machines thanks to the absence of a Registry. Besides, Linux is free for as long as you're alive, every upgrade is free, every update is free. At the very least, format the hard drive, install Ubuntu and give it to someone less fortunate. If you don't feel like enjoying the benefits of such a good OS then you might as well help out someone who can't afford the hardware. You'll even be able to use it as a tax write-off, just ask the guy who does your taxes.

[marionspd]

First, whether you agree or disagree with Don, you should give him kudos for taking on a tough subject, well done Don!

Second - The only place I think you could find more fan boys is the Xbox360 vs. PS3 debate

Third - I think if you throw some Linux in the debate for desktops and netbooks.. how about Ubuntu 8.10

[tm_anon]

agreed.

[D3vildog699]

mmm 8.10 had issues with the drivers for wireless, then i did a clean install and it worked fine.

[the_piano_man]

Let's see, ms recently "bought" a Linux company - hmmm; I wonder how much Linux code is hidden in this "new" system? Count on ms doing EVERYTHING it can to smash any competition - with the exception of one thing - providing honestly produced high quality software developed WITHOUT depending on others' ideas. This bunch of hypocrites have become the richest group of people in the world by using, "acquiring", hoarding and locking up other software developers' ideas over and over again; all the while indirectly implying that all ms software originates and is written in Redmond, Wa. . Ms has used the law to punish people they call "pirates" who try to use their code in the same way they have used others' code . That said, it is not likely that ms will go away any time soon. They have lawyers, money and the government on their side. They have successfully bullied the feds into allowing them to continue their monopoly (which is a crime that goes miles beyond the Madoff debacle) and in this economic climate the feds will do nothing to stop them.Their "new" system will do quite well in their proprietary world after having thousands of loyal servants . . . ooops - developers test it for them for free.

[sntholiday]

All your allegations are meaningless without proof. Why don't you list some of the "developers' ideas" you mention and the source from where you got your information? It's easy to make allegations. You're a typically MAC/Linux fanboy.

[Alphaman63]

Don,

I wish you'd had some more facts in your article. You said it's "easily one of the best operating systems I've ever used", but the only benefits you describe are that it's fast (compared to what?) and has lots of drivers (compared to what?).

My experience has been just the opposite. The video driver doesn't recognize my hardware, so on a 1280x800 screen, I'm stuck with 1024x768. My audio's not recognized, so my machine is mute. And it's not fast -- using twice the resources on the same machine (both disk and RAM) running XP (whose video and audio works just fine), it feels like I'm dragging my mouse through molasses, and waiting for apps to load is like watching paint dry.

And yes, I meet the min specs.

And yes, I run both Windows and Mac OS (and more) -- the VM in question is loaded on my 2.4GHz dual core MacBook. One nice thing, VirtualBox and my Mac sure made loading and installing W7 easy.

I want someone to tell me what new features are in W7. All I can find anyplace is fuzzy words and market-speak, telling me how "wonderful an experience" it is. I don't need market-speak -- that's what got us into the Vista nightmare to begin with. I get the impression MS thinks they can get away with putting a new label on Vista, just to remove the bad taste from peoples' mouths.

yeah, "new and improved". right. looks like Vista v2 from where I'm running it.

[D3vildog699]

BETA.. funny word... huh?

[FellowConspirator]

Er, no. Win7 won't stymie OS X growth. Because the OS is becoming less-and-less relevant. Linux, OS X, and Win 7 are technically capable of doing anything the other can do (with various give-and-take on the performance based on where each puts it's priorities). They don't -- the operation of each is very distinct and different, but if one cared to put some effort into it (not that much anymore), you can replicate not only the functionality, but also the style of one with the other.

We don't see people doing this because there's no value in it. The three different environments are the way they are based mostly on the way they are used -- and that's dictated more by the application software and hardware integration than by the OS itself.

Windows is intended for commercial enterprise use as a general purpose knowledge-worker boilerplate platform, specifically designed to impose policies and business rules. It's used for games, and multimedia too, but the money for it's in the former, not the latter (as far as MS is concerned). OS X is cashing in on context-free human-centric design. Simple, to the point, yet powerful underneath, and more media-oriented. Linux, aims to be whatever you want, with the onus that you've got to be pretty specific and adept at specify that.

But the OS is increasingly a commodity. You don't buy Windows for the OS, you buy it because it's a prerequisite for something else. It doesn't matter how it works, you're interested in how the application works. OS X too, people aren't buying the OS such as they are buying the middleware and apps that interact with it. You could use any OS these days, but select one on the basis of how it evolves into a focus. Windows 7, OS X, and Linux are rapidly becoming application launchers and application frameworks. The core is sufficiently equivalent between them all at the OS layer as to be largely irrelevant to the user.

[pithenumber]

If it gets you on the internet these days, it works

[The_happy_switcher]

And it's only taken 8 years for Microsoft to finally get to a point where their latest 'software' isn't pissing off their loyal users. I guess that's progress, measured in Microsoft terms.

[Seaspray0]

No, that's just you spouting lies and BS. First off, 8 years ago windows 2000 was just being released (very successfull). Second, you're the pig with lipstick who was BS'ing windows 7 on the beta release day without even trying it.

[D3vildog699]

yup, him and Brian

[mkerwin]

"But it's the average consumer--the person who doesn't follow the tech world, doesn't know why so many people hate Microsoft, doesn't understand the basic difference between Mac OS X and Windows, and simply doesn't care about tech, as long as it works--who will consider the alternatives. She will read about Windows 7 on sites like this, examine the price differences between a MacBook Pro and the latest-and-greatest Hewlett-Packard notebook, use Windows 7 at work, and then pick Microsoft's product over Apple's up for personal use."

Are you serious? The only time in the entire article that you use a gender-specific pronoun is when you're describing the technology-clueless consumer? Frankly, as a female who uses a Mac, I'm glad you're switching.

[tm_anon]

That's the funniest thing I've ever read. I agree with you completely, but it still made me laugh.

Everyone is forgetting about Snow Leopard. Watch out, Windows 7 is about to be left in the dust.. Just adding some OS X stuff to Vista is not the way. Apple is going to provide BLAZING PERFORMANCE with Snow Leopard. Bye Bye Windows.

[Seaspray0]

Won't it will be apple's first 64 bit OS? That alone says alot in how far they've been behind in that area (windows has run 64 bit for years). I'll give them one advantage that microsoft didn't have. When MS released their first 64 bit OS, they had to deal with getting 64 bit drivers for the hardware and there's alot of hardware that runs with windows. Apple will only have to deal with provding drivers for the limited hardware they have in the macs. The one dissadvantage I give them is 64 bit OS will be new territory for apple, and with any new territory you will find bumps and issues that were not forseen. Plus, chances are your current mac has a 32 bit processor and you won't be able to run the 64 bit version. Meanwhile, you keep dreaming that snow leopard will be the "be all/end all" OS that brings world peace to the middle east. I'll keep an open mind and wait and see.

[pithenumber]

dropping PPC support with 10.6

[FellowConspirator]

@Seaspray0:

The current version of OS X, 10.5 (aka, Leopard), would be the first 64-bit version of the OS (Tiger had rudiments thereof) -- in the same vein as 64-bit Vista and XP. That is to say, the OS is 64-bit, but many of the libraries are still 32-bit. Snow Leopard updates everything across the board to 64-bit and presumes a minimum of 2 CPU cores plus one accelerated GPU (which is now available for non-graphical uses).

The 64-bit OS is old hat. Linux beat both MS and OS X to the punch, having moved to 64-bits in 1995 with the port to the DEC Alpha processor -- which is why it was the first OS with 64-bit support for IA64 and x86-64 / AMD64 platforms as well.

Microsoft's issue with 64-bit Windows has never been the OS so much as the driver support. OS X runs on hardware provided by the vendor, so few drivers are required and provided by the hardware vendor who's also the OS vendor. Linux uses a simplified driver model and is open source, providing highly portable and generic drivers so most hardware is supported regardless of the CPU platform.

For Windows, however, the model has always to keep the kernel proprietary, release APIs for drivers, and rely on third parties to develop drivers specific to each device they manufactured. This led to a situation where drivers were frequently different between versions of Windows, and two parallel support efforts were required. The system being closed, and much hardware prototyping already moving to Linux, the effort in making 64-bit ports, albeit not that great, wasn't worth it if people weren't buying 64-bit Windows. And, people weren't buying 64-bit Windows because MS wasn't pushing it, in part because of some debate on whether they could effectively support two nearly identical yet different platforms.

[pithenumber]

@fellow
XP64 has no drivers, Vista is doing much better with 64 bit driver support

Yes Linux is more awesome than any other OS

[bryanwalker]

I wouldn't purchase anything that has a Mac or Apple logo on it or anything that Jobs has touched! There is a reason Mac only has 9.63 market share and consider that a high market share, because corporatations need functionality & versatility, two commodities not associated with Mac!

btw, you Mac freaks see your buddy jobs couldn't make it to CES due to his AIDS infection!

[Seaspray0]

Brianwalker, you are just as bad as the macboys you try to make fun of. This is from someone who uses windows and will defend it against the stupid slander and BS made by people like you. You're just as much the problem as the macboys are. If all you can do is open your mouth and spew garbage and insults without any reguard to the truth, then go away.

[Brian]

You really deserve Windows and the related viruses, spyware, bloatware, adware, malware, vistaware, etc.

BTW, I'd rather be a Mac freak than a Wintard like you.

Sad little man you are, bryanwalker.

[Alphaman63]

bryanwalker, why don't you stop talking about Apple until you've bought an Apple product and know what you're talking about. And I promise I'll stop talking about Windows when I quit buying it and using it. But for now, I own and run both (and others), I make my money working on Windows (and other OSs), but I'll use my Mac any day of the week over a Windows-based machine.

And yes, I'm running Windows 7, too.

[inverse137]

OK, let's be realistic here...this is what we know:

Windows 7, like Vista, will not be released when it is supposed to be. And, un-like Vista, Windows 7 will be released EARLY. Microsoft is desperate to get beyond the disaster that is known as Vista. I predict they will release Windows 7 in August or September at the latest. They have already announced that they will issue upgrade certificates for systems sold in July 2009.

Now, with that said, Windows 7 is still, essentially, Vista v2.0. They have basically the same kernel. Businesses are still about 12 months out from implementation of Windows 7 once it is released. IT departments are rarely early innovators of mission critical software. Why should we do the beta testing on software that is critical to the operation of a business?

I think most IT people feel the rush of Microsoft to get W7 out and forget about Vista. While initial indicators are W7 is Vista "somewhat fixed," we still don't have any real data.

So, in short, NO, W7 will not slow Apple's momentum. I think apple has a very good shot at gettign 15% market share by the end of 2010.

[pithenumber]

W7 will slow Applegrowth down
try W7, its really nice, I would buy build 7000 as a finished product, a couple bugs to work out, but its awesome

[tm_anon]

@pithenumber
There's a reason Vista was crap and statements like the one you just made is it. Apple has a very good chance at getting 15% market share and Linux has a very good chance at getting to show just how incredibly good it is when compared to the Windows crap available today. IT people tend to wait a very long time and be extremely stuck in their ways, that's one of the reasons so many corporations stick with one OS, the IT guys want it that way. The ones who are a bit more adventurous try out a different OS. The ones with a little knowledge actually use the best one for the job instead of sticking with the one that's been in use for so long and the ones who have even more knowledge tend to get fired after spending time creating a very easy to use, well thought out OS based on a Linux kernel, fully capable of making the job that much easier on both him and the rest of the company. He just gets fired because nobody trusts the smart guy.

[pithenumber]

Linux can show how pwnful it is, all they need is advertisements and name brand software. People dislike Linux b/c they can't immediately fire up iTunes and write something in Word, there are many open source alternatives, but people want iTunes crap and M$Word since they think those are the only software in the world that does what they want.

[Chris_Keck]

Why is it that, in an otherwise gender neutral article, "the average consumer--the person who doesn't follow the tech world, doesn't know why so many people hate Microsoft, doesn't understand the basic difference between Mac OS X and Windows", in other words the ignorant person, is described as "she"?

[disneybob]

I agree with Myles Taylor. Don's article completely ignored the fact that, by the time Windows 7 arrives, Apple will have released yet another version of OS X (Snow Leopard, OS X 10.6). This will be Apple's 5th OS release in the last 7 years, proof that Apple continues to innovate and improve upon an already excellent OS. So although I won't claim that Snow Leopard will be better than Windows 7 (I haven't seen either pre-production versions), I can safely say that one of Don's assertions, "the Windows experience... actually eclipses Mac OS X's", is based on faulty reasoning.

Personally, I do hope for a much better Windows than the current Vista. Competition in the marketplace is good for all of us.

[pithenumber]

the biggst thing that 10.6 is going to do is dropping PPC support I think

[FellowConspirator]

10.6 introduces hundreds of changes. The one people are going to complain most about is dropping the PowerPC support. Apple has traditionally supported their hardware for very long periods of time compared to other hardware vendors. While it's been several years since Apple sold PPC systems, Mac users typically hold onto their hardware about 60% longer than non-Mac users before upgrading (ask someone that's supported orgs that use both). The need to upgrade for performance reasons, etc. is perceived to be lower for some reason.

Anyway, 10.6 drops PPC support. The whole OS is refactored and optimized, typical apps are less than 1/2 the size and more than twice as fast. Multithreaded code is considerably more pervasive (more so than Win7 by quite a bit), and it implements OpenCL, which makes the pipelines of your GPU available as multipurpose programmable co-processors (if you want). The OS also minimally requires 2 CPU cores and a programmable GPU. 10.6 also migrates all the OS frameworks to 64-bit versions, and Finder is replaced with a much faster Cocoa-based one.

Actually there's a lot more, but it's pretty clear that the emphasis has been on refactoring the OS for compactness and performance. I presume this would serve dual purposes -- first, 10.6 beta already makes Win7 appear both big and sluggish in comparison, so it's partly a marketing ploy to address the substantial improvements in Win7. Second, the changes clearly indicate directions for the hardware and OS platforms: it would seem to presage smaller form factors (embedded in more classes of devices) and moving current form-factors to more CPU cores with farm more deliberative cache control.

Unbuntu Linux is also a Unix based (like OS X) operating system that is very stable and fast. You can erase that buggy Windows and get some use out of your PC, Apple and Linux both provide a level of performance and stability that you cannot get with Windows. Hate Mac and Linux all you want. Microsoft is not providing a good product and all the "Mac Attacks" will not change the sad state of MS.

Unbuntu Linux is also a Unix based (like OS X) operating system that is very stable and fast. You can erase that buggy Windows and get some use out of your PC, Apple and Linux both provide a level of performance and stability that you cannot get with Windows. Hate Mac and Linux all you want. Microsoft is not providing a good product and all the "Mac Attacks" will not change the sad state of MS.