Comments on: Vista reminds us that we have a choice

Vista has been so bad that it has reminded us that we have real choice again in computing.

[irperez]

Competition is always a good thing and only benefits the consumer.

[parttimeaw]

Oh yeah I forgot for you Apple gamers out there Microsoft just owned you with Direct X game over!

[john55440]

More silly Linux Fanboy / Apple Fanboy anti-Vista propaganda. Vista SP1 works just fine.

Windows has the best and largest library of available applications, the best/largest hardware driver support, and the most widely supported ecosystem, of any operating system.

Mac is the most closed and proprietary computer on the planet. You can run Windows and Windows Applications no HP, Dell, Toshiba... Customer Built, and Self-Built computers. With MacOSX and MacOSX Applications, your only hardware choices are Apple, Apple, and Apple. When someone trys to run MacOSX on non-Apple hardware, Apple sues them.

No optional Blu-Ray drives for you Apple Fanboy. Dictator Steve says that you are not allowed to have that choice.

Desktop Linux is too geeky and inconvenient for mainstream computer users.

[catch23]

Not to mention that Vista, in under 2 years, has ~20% market share while Apple is struggling to break 9% after 20 years.
Apple, and everyone else for that matter, wishes they had such an 'ever worsening outlook'.

[Jon N.]

With all due respect, I disagree. Vista has many problems, first of which, is legacy driven software. Microsoft needs to put security first, and not operability first. Apple is really good in this area. Operability should come second only to security. Linux is great, and NOT too "geeky". In the beginnings of Windoze, You had Windows sitting on top of DOS. Back then, you had the option to fix the problems at hand, by going into the DOS, and fixing the .EXE file, etc. Now, you can't even change a simple registry without permission from M$! Linux on the other hand, allows the user to understand how the OpSys works, and with just a couple of lines of code, you can do ANYTHING that you want in terminal mode. If people were told about the control they could have, and the peace of mind offered by knowing their OpSys and how it works, Linux would be on top. Unfortunately, right now, everyone wants their OpSys vendor to fix it for them. Yet another problem with M$ & Vista, as well as Apple. Apple is great, if you want to pay twice the price for the same hardware on the market because it runs "OS X". Try Ubuntu Linux. It's less "geeky" than you think.

[mikestatic1]

More Windows apologists ignoring the obvious... close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears, and you can ignore the painful truth for even longer - the operating system you overpaid for and installed on substandard equipment is a dog. Deal with it.

[Penguinisto]

Wow - if wishes were fishes...

Seriously - Vista got slammed and passed over by most of the enterprise. The reasons why or why not no longer matter - point is, once XP reaches EOL (2010), the holdout companies will realize that it will be equally expensive and painful to switch - either to Windows 7, or to something else.

The benefit of something else is that once you switch, you're no longer chained to the upgrade treadmill, to hideously expensive CALs, or to resource-hoovering anti-malware solutions.

the only reason Vista has nay marketshare at all is due to two reasons:

1) MSFT counts any Windows workstation sale as a "Vista" sale - even if the owner ordered the machine with XP, or ordered it with "downgrade rights"

2) OEMs now sell it by default, and most consumers either don't know enough to demand XP, or they simply wipe the HDD and install XP off of their old install media once the box gets to their house.

Seriously? Marketshare-by-inertia is nothing to brag on.

/P

[catch23]

Penguinisto
so 2010 is going to be the year of the Linux desktop? Again? You promise this time?
Talk about wishing.

Companies stayed with XP because it works for what they are doing. XP had about the same uptake at its release. Sadly, little 'wishers' are refusing to see facts. Companies and people choose MS, because it saves them money or works the best for what they are doing.
When that stops, you might see a swing. Until then we just hear the apologists making every excuse in the book as to why MS still dominates

[MaggieRed]

Dude you have no clue about Apple products.

Do everyone a favor and kept your comments to yourself.

[odubtaig]

Yup, vendor lock-in is an 'excuse'.

[Mark_Anderson]

ITT Many people who don't really understand anything about adoption rates.

Anyone want to hazard a guess at XP's adoption rate after two years?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Anyone?

Oh and Glyn Moody? LOL! He makes Randall Kennedy look sane.

[tm_anon]

Competition makes the world go round. Linux is great, I'd just like to see a more mainstream approach to advertising it. I've gone into computer shops and asked about the Linux products they have available and most of them have to hunt down where they put anything even remotely Linux related.

[kast5089]

It has nothing to do with advertising. Get this: people complained about Vista because they changed the way the Windows Control Panel was organized. That was a major gripe by a lot of critics. Now imagine what happens when people realize that they can't run iTunes on Linux, or that they can't use most of the handheld devices with it, or that it won't run 99% of the games on the market, or that software comes from repositories. Uh oh.

No. Linux just can't compete. It won't ever compete until the free software freaks give up and start giving proprietary companies a reason to play ball.

[Penguinisto]

"people complained about Vista because they changed the way the Windows Control Panel was organized. "


...and UAC, and driver incompatibility, and the "Vista Capable" debacle, and software incompatibilities...

...and the expense in money and hardware, all for zero perceived benefit and some pretty transparent windows (which require a massive hardware upgrade to get working smoothly).

[kast5089]

I'd love to see Linux gain on the desktop, but I doubt it will gain any serious market share due to Vista's poor reception. Linux is always a few steps behind the competition, and it offers nothing that Windows or OS X don't already do better... unless, of course, you're a developer in the UNIX environment and don't need or want a GUI. In that case, Linux wins.

@john
I agree about Vista. It really isn't that bad. I think it's far better than XP and it's a massive improvement in a lot of critical areas. Also, don't forget that Apple is a hardware company. I'm no apologist, but I see Apple's strategy as no worse than Microsoft's. Whereas Microsoft has Windows Genuine Advantage and all that crap, Apple just restricts its OS to its hardware. Problem solved. At least Apple innovates, whereas Microsoft just steals, patents, and then sues. They're both anti-consumer, but only one is anti-innovation.

[dragonbite]

"behind the competition"?
I was sitting at a computer club meeting watching somebody go over Vista when it had come out and saying to myself "Linux has that".. "Linux has that too", etc.

Unfortunately I did not have a system powerful enough (P3 500MHz w/128 MB Ram) to show off ALL of the stuff the Vista guy did (like the 3d and eye candy stuff) but was still able to duplicate some.

[medezark]

Bad news there, Apple doesn't innovate either. Their core operating system is borrowed open-source. The only inovation they really have done is in making pretty cases. They also are the last two embrace cutting edge technology. Open any Apple case and you'll find hardware components that were abandoned by the major PC manufacturers two years ago.

[dragonbite]

Competition is good, and Linux has moved a great deal to being a true competitor!

I know of at least one person running Vista without any problems, but he's outnumbered by the people that do have problems.

Linux, on the other hand, has come a long way to the desktop and is doing a fantastic job. I have yet to HAVE to go to the command line to set up my laptop or desktop with Ubuntu Linux. The only time I go to the command line is when I am doing advanced system administration work which most people (like my brothers, parents and in-laws) would never be doing.

It has become easier to install Linux on a clean system than it is to install Windows and that is without the need to purchase any licenses or applications to make it functional if a cross-platform ( "cross-platform" meaning Windows, Mac, Linux, possibly Solaris and more, not just Windows and Mac) application is not available.

[Chapmaniac]

Linux has a LONG way to go to becoming a true desktop OS for the common consumer - no news there, nothing shocking to those in-the-know either. I've installed several different distros and they are looking more polished than before (better artwork for the icons, etc.) but almost no discernable improvements in the last few years. I'll admit they're easier to install and the desktop is complete as most users who need a basic computing experience will need - but there's where I have a problem with Linux; it's basic.

I'm running Vista Home Premium 64-bit on a quad core system without a hiccup and have full access to basically every utility I could possibly need or want. Sure there are Linux alternatives - but you just don't see art classes in the real world sitting down to teach students how to use The Gimp. You're gonna need Photoshop to compete out there. You get a spreadsheet with an Excel macro embedded and try to open it with OpenOffice and you're in for a rude awakening.

There are options out there for your desktop - it just doesn't really bode well if you're restricting yourself to a Linux experience.

[odubtaig]

Once again, I fail to see how Photoshop is a feature of Windows, especially as it can be run on Linux just fine with a compatibility layer. Applications that could be written for any system are not a feature of that system and therefore not a measure of its worth.

[MSSlayer]

Thanks to Novel, VBA support in open office is coming along. Not that it is a good thing, macros are ripe for attack.

For 99% of the population, gimp is overkill.

Why do you think more and more hollywood animation and CGI is being done in Linux? Because it sucks?

[vladimir221]

if Vista reminds you that there are other OSs, you remind me that the real problem is located between the chair and the keyboard. It is the best OS I've had, fewer compatibility issue than xp64( didn't compare the 32-bit versions, don't care). The one that wants to see real bugs could try my Mac out. Linux or Unix like Solaris is a waste of time for mainstream users due to complicated config, very little feedback. Vista does have steep hardware requirements, but hardware should evolve like software and not stagnate, and on the right config( fast system, much ram) Vista rocks. The biggest part of the criticism is plain old retarded hatred against Bill Gates and MS and not a prof opinion.

[Jon N.]

What?! Little feedback? I have gotten most of all of my problems, queries, and workarounds from Linux/Ubuntu/Debian forums. I get my answers in a day or less. My Ubuntu rocks fast at 4 GB. Many computers will be going to 64 bit soon. When that happens, at $350, you WILL care! Try Ubuntu Linux. Unless you're a hard core gamer, or a graphics designer (which The GIMP works excellently at, BTW!), then Linux is much more secure, customizable, and best of all, it's FREE! OpenOffice.org does everything that Microsoft Office does, reads and writes to the files that MS Office creates, as well! OOo's presentation app is better than M$'s and again, it's FREE! Hardware. It's not like M$ is taken by surprise by the new hardware out there. They aren't. They are just so busy trying to fix the glitches and new security breeches in Vista, that they don't have time to create drivers for the newest hardware or for that matter, new software. Another reason that M$ Windows needs to be overhauled from the ground up, starting with security. I am so thankful for all my helpful Linux users (penguins) out there. They've made my Linux experience a blessed one. Penguinisto, YOU ROCK!

[odubtaig]

OK, Jon, Sorry, going to have to pull you up on one thing. Until GIMP does Gamut Warning or even understands what CMYK is it's completely unusable for graphic design. That's only one of a myriad of reasons why it just can't touch photoshop.

As for Vladimir, only a poor programmer automatically blames the user. If the user is the problem when you have to explain to them how to get OpNet running and what 'compatibility mode' is then I guess we'd better give up on them all as a lost cause, throw in the towel and burn all the computers.

Vista reminds people that there are other O/Ss when they install a widely used firewall program then upgrade to service pack 1 and watch as it enters an endless reboot loop until they enter safe mode and remove the firewall software. Oh yes, that would be me.

The problem Vista has is that a tiny minority have had a trouble-free experience (and act as though it were the norm in the face of a mountain of evidence) and there's no compelling reason to upgrade.

[Jon N.]

To Odubtaig: You're right. GIMP isn't the Graphics designer it could be, that's true. I am pretty sure Photoshop can work under Crossover by Codeweavers. If not, there is Pixel (not free) & Inkscape (open source). There are some programs out there that, like iTunes, have very few open source rivals. Patents only last so long, and if there are no new innovations to that product, then that product goes open source anyway. If a business folds, there is always a grab for the copyrights & patents of those products in which they had pioneered. I may not live to see it, but I think that the future of the software industry will lie in the people, creating its innovation and evolution, not in corporations who, with their patents and copyrights, stifle innovation, creativity, & progress.

[dragonbite]

GIMP may not be the perfect tool for Graphic Designers but most people aren't the level of graphic designers that the features missing from GIMP are a game stopper. I believe the GIMP fork CinePaint can handle CMYK, or at least can handle a higher bit depth of color.

Inkscape and Xara Extreme are SVG graphics apps and are more similar to Adobe Illustrator than Photoshop.

One thing to keep in mind is Adobe has been getting more open to the idea of providing for Linux. While there is a long way to go they are being more up-to-date with Flash for Linux, they release AIR and even their FLEX SDK (beta? not sure). If they see business sense in providing it, then they would port Photoshop and others to Linux but their focus is now more on Cloud versions which will still be cross-platform.

And for those that really need Photoshop and the others, they still have an alternative; Mac.

About iTunes not having any rivals, really it is only its integration with the iTunes store that Rhythmbox, Banshee and Amarok are missing (or not missing as the case may be), but that doesn't mean any one of these can't turn around and so something similar with Amazon instead.

[odubtaig]

I certainly see F/OSS making proper inroads over the next 10 years. Now that Linux has reached a reasonable level of maturity it's a lot easier for projects like Ubuntu to concentrate on the user-friendliness; it's got to be said, Vista may be a millstone around the neck of the user but Server 2008 has made a huge number of improvements over 2003, not least in ease of administration and security.

The other problem with projects like GIMP and Inkscape is that the efforts to port them to Windows and OSX are half-hearted with features delayed and show-stopping bugs. No Windows user is going to be convinced that F/OSS can ever make the grade when GIMP for OSX fails to actually load valid PSD files (which Win and Lin versions handle fine) and WinGIMP has glitches that break the 'move' tool until you reload it and a tendency to crash 9/10 times when you close it. Inkscape for Windows also seems to have picked up a glitch in newer versions where you can't choose a font. These are not issues in Linux.

My main issue with GIMP at the moment is that I wanted to get some printing done with a company that provides cheap printing through a largely online system. Their templates are in CMYK photoshop PSD format which GIMP can't open because it can't handle CMYK. It doesn't take long to work out the measurements for myself (after all, I've got a very good head for maths) but it's still extra time the pros can't afford.

For a couple of other points. Cinepaint was created to handle HDR images but is not going to be actively developed as this is now being worked into GIMP. Flex is at Alpa 4. Development on Xara Xtreme has all but ground to a halt after people realised that Corel wasn't going to open the core; really, they just wanted free development on 90% of the port only to then sell the whole package at full price. Bloody freeloaders. I can see a lot of really good, useful, software coming in the future but there's still a lot of work to be done. Until then, the commercial apps win.

[irperez]

When you have 90% market share, everybody will have a complaint. Given their market share, I'd say Microsoft has done a pretty good job. It just seems that Microsoft is going to have to have split something here. They have to please the Legacy crowd, but also please the Future/Security Crowd. And this can't be done overnight. You have to ween off the legacy crowd from their legacy products, while still being competitive with the latest and greatest. Thats very hard to do. But I'll guarantee that a future OS is being developed from the ground up that is somewhat compatible, but only Vista forward... Microsoft isn't stupid... (This is exactly what Apple did a few years ago and cutoff legacy compatibility)

[ppgreat]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people come out of the wall when an article like this runs and use the "quantity over quality" Windows arguments.

"We have more apps." " We have bigger market share." "We run on more machines."

And my new all-time favorite: "Don't switch to anything else!! Windows 7 is coming! Windows 7 is coming."

The most ringing endorsement that people are coming up with for Vista: "Vista SP1 runs just fine."

It stands to reason that if people aren't happy with Vista, and Windows 7 is going to based on Vista, how much more excited are they going to be with Windows 7?

And how stupid does Microsoft think people are?

You can run an enterprise without several versions of Windows, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, SharePoint, Exchange, Visio, Visual Studio, Dynamics, Silverlight, and a dozen Server products.

Don't believe me? Do your homework IT folk. There are multi-billion dollar organizations out there running without paying the Microsoft tax?biotech firms, computer companies, and governmental agencies, to name a few.

[rdwalton]

I think these guys must get points or bonus' based on the feedback they get on articles they write. Seems that anytime they have nothing worthy to write about, they bring up the Vista "woes." Of course the Vista woes only seem to come from the CNET writers and such.

How can you sell more 100 million copies of something and it be deems a flop? I just don't get it. Apple sells 85 million iPods and they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but Microsoft sells 100 million copies of Vista and it's a flop - go figure.

[MSSlayer]

They didn't sell 100 million copies, not even close.

[dragonbite]

Out of those 100 million, how many are those that are counted as Vista (because it's only a license) but includes XP which is what is actually installed?

Our company has licenses for Vista but we are all running XP with no plans on going to Vista until we have absolutely no choice. By then maybe we'll hop over to Linux.

[thrasherht]

I would just like to start by saying that, yes, every OS has its pro's and its con's.

but i would also like to say,

all consumers out there that have not run vista on an up to date system have no room too speak.
vista is built for high end systems, so when it is run on a lower end system then it has problems keeping up.

all over people who run on mac need to think of the fact that they are unique in the fact that they have good stuff, just not the right stuff for some users needs.

i personally have run on all three systems, i love them all.

Linux is extremely stable.
windows runs just about anything you want it to.
mac has extraordinary media editing ease and media organization.

so all users who have not run a on a system before, do not complain about it.

"Don't complain until you have experienced it for yourself."

[MSSlayer]

*** should a desktop OS need a "high end" system to run? Do you even know the purpose of an OS?

Linux and OSX has all the same eye candy, but can run on very old systems.

[thrasherht]

i ask you, have you run vista on a high end system.

and if so then what system was that.

because if it was a store boughten system then its not high end.

[erichmercado]

I agree that Vista presents options to consumers. A lot of blogs and people that I know bash Vista. I'm using Vista and has lots of advantages and it even works on my 4 year old computer. But like anyone else, I cannot persuade everyone to use Vista. Others will stick with XP or even 98. Can you believe that?

Here in Manila, Philippines, Apple is picking up. Apple even opened it's online store for the local market. For the very techy guys, there is Linux wherein you can program, tweak, rewrite codes with freedom.

As of the moment, consumers right now have lots of options to choose from and it will help us not be dependent in one operating system.

[vip_m]

The thing is, a Mac offers the best of all worlds: you can run Mac, Windows, and UN*X apps. Macs also offer the greatest value: my first Mac (Powerbook Lombard) lasted 8 years of continuous usefulness (it still works up to now). My latest Mac has been running for 5 years, using the latest OS (Leopard) no problem--I just added more memory and am using an external Firewire drive.

[d--keller]

If you added more memory and a hard drive you can use an 8 year old PC. Don't be a fanboy.

[d--keller]

Help! I can't figure out how Media Player works! I can't find songs on Amazon! I can't figure out how to wipe! When is the I roll coming out? $10 per roll is a deal; the interface is so easy.

The whole premise of this article is ridiculous. Vista works great unless you're an apple fanboy. I grew up on macs, I'm typing this on an Ubuntu laptop; all OSs have issues and all have upsides. Linux is free but you've got to really know your stuff to do much with it. Windows is not free, but you need to be able to read at a third grade level to use it, and you can't go trolling for Paris Hilton videos without a good antivirus. Apple is expensive and won't work with anything that doesn't start with "I" unless you spend even more, but you can be an illiterate 3rd grader and still make a wedding picture montage.

[odubtaig]

OK, you just gave you your right to call other people fanboys Mssr. Pot. Next you'll be claiming the BSOD is a thing of the past.

Note: tomorrow I'll be spending some time helping a friend whose laptop runs Vista and keeps BSODing so think hard before replying.

[medezark]

odubtaig, check the SoDimm's. Only time I ever had a non-booting system with Vista was when one of the ram sticks went belly up.

[odubtaig]

Always do. As for my friend's computer, I told him not to get that one; haven't looked at it yet because I woke up ill instead. I'll be adjusting the settings so he can get the error code off it first. With XP I've seen causes from a flakey 3G modem driver to Game Guard running with Comodo as the system firewall (although this causes an instant reset rather than a BSOD) so I'm not ruling anything out yet.

[d--keller]

I'm a hater, not a fanboy. :) BSOD is not completely a thing of the past, but it is increasingly rare. Appleheads like to pretend that because their screen doesn't go blue when their system freezes it doesn't count. It counts when it freezes on me; especially when you spent $2000 for what would have cost you $1000 on a pc.

[Roinator]

Competition, as previously stated, is a always good for the consumer. True, but having competition does not mean the product will be more open. It is completely conceivable that these two computer giants may develop to be more competitive by closing their software. The iPod sells well because it is the only thing that works on an Apple machine, and because it also works on windows. Imagine if Microsoft closed up so iPods didn't work anymore. Suddenly the Zune is much more viable.

[jlshearer]

Having come into some "found" money recently, I considered replacing my aging Dell laptop. But having worked with a friend's Vista, I decided instead to upgrade memory, replace the dead battery - in other words, bring my XP system up to snuff. Glad I did. Saved some bucks and have a reliable OS.

While I don't think it's nearly in the same conversation as upgrading to Vista vs. staying with XP, you can go back to CD's and cassette tapes instead of using iTunes.

Not an Apple fanboy, and admit iTunes isn't ideal. But I'm getting tired of everyone blaming Apple for the record company's DRM and the baggage they need to carry because of it. The only reason we have iTunes (and the legit digital music revolution) in the first place is because Apple made DRM possible via online distribution in a viable form. How quickly we forget what the landscape for legit digital music distribution was just 5-6 years ago. And how many labels and artists STILL fight their assets being sold digitally.

I think the issue of whether to upgrade or not has been on the horizon for longer than Vista. I remember working with an EDS team that was dismayed that a Fortune 500 client was dragging their feet in upgrading to 2000 back in the day. (They ultimately ended up skipping an upgrade and went from 98 to XP.) I just think this swelling backlash to the stability and imposing costs of hardware and application upgrades are finally bringing this issue to the front page vs. some internal PPT or water cooler rant.

Also I hope your readers realize that running Linux with Ubutnu is relevant for about 1% of the population, esp when there are other options (XP, Vista, OSX) out there. I think geeks (aka most of your readers) take for granted their perspective, comfort, and amount of complexity they need (yes need) in their set ups. Why else would they be seeking upgrades every day. Or trolling sites like CNET? It's not about what works today, but chasing the next challenge to stroke your ego in staying steps ahead of your mother. Death to Nick Burns, long live Nick Burns.

It reminds me of my neighbor and his car - he has to own certain (esp vintage american) cars because he is a car geek and "has to" constantly be tweaking, upgrading or just work on his ride. While that was perfectly normal for him, for 95% of the population, it's not. Not even for a brake job or an oil change.

Your readers are part of the, say 5%, that actually have a clue how things work. I work with IT departments, and forced to play translator of geek-speak - I thought it was a isolated function - now I'm going on 15 years of it. I understand your argument that pitching an upgrade to Beehive, operator confusion, and OS instability (even the BSOD) equates to job security, but to what constructive end?

And proclaiming that everyone SHOULD be able to do X or Y, (and know how to config their print server) or they're idiots is just arrogant and of course ridiculous. And it doesn't help the cause.

I do wish MS would just make their products more secure, more stable. But that's not they're MO apparently. They STILL (another geek-driven phenomena) think it's about features vs. the (average) user experience. When they learn that lesson, this upgrade or not to upgrade issue will go away.

[moddedcomputers]

I have 3 computers at my appraisal firm, and 5 personal machines at home. All my work machines run XP since Vista and Linux cannot handle my Quickbooks or my appraisal form software for my appraisal work.
I'm a major geek, but when you run a business, I just don't have time for any crap that won't run, right out of the box.
I have 2 machines running Linux at home, all busy downloading movies and building ISO files for DVD's. For basic computing Linux is great, but has a greater learning curve.
I've noticed with any new OS, I feel a little frustated when I cannot find the feature/program I'm looking for and I think this is a little of the frustation with Vista.
I have one laptop running Vista 64, an old POS Dell with XP for editing my website. I've never owned or had a chance to play with Apple/MAC since you have to pay to play.
I remeber people hung to Windows 98SE for a long time, even with it's security problems. I think XP will be the same, people will hang on, well past it's natural life span.
Most computers users do not read well or maintain their machines at all. Vista has tried to fix this in a futile effort to "fix" the end user.
Personally I think Vista will be fine in a couple of years with SP4.