Comments on: PG&E sees plug-in hybrids as potential profit centers

California's electric utility has demonstrated a method of letting owners of souped-up hybrid cars sell power back to the grid at a profit.
Photos: Hybrids that give back to the grid

[Orion Blastar]

We need a $10,000 Hybrid not a $10,000 battery

Until companies start making hybrids affordable to 85% of the planet, the majority of people won't be able to afford them.

$10,000USD for a battery? No wonder it is a high profit product? Amazing that they use global warming in order to scare people into buying their highly priced technology and then go on to brag about how profitable it is to them? What more proof of a scam do you need than skyhigh prices on technology that is supposed to fight global warming.

Make it as affordable as an economy car if you are really serious about fighting global warming and you don't want to have it labeled as a scam.

[enovikoff]

Simplistic

Orion,
Your point is good, but too simplistic. Any radical new technology (and plug-in hybrids are *all* about radical new battery technology) is going to be very expensive. So, a few people buy them at high prices, hopefully with some government subsidies, and then the economies of mass production kick in slowly and the prices drop. However, expecting the car to be $10k is a bit tough: what can you really buy, car-wise, for $10k nowadays? Not much.

[chuck_whealton]

Re: We need a $10,000 Hybrid not a $10,000 battery

I couldn't agree with you more. That's been my biggest gripe, most people simply can't afford today's hybrids.

I understand that vehicle manufacturers need to make money, and I'm all for it. But if the average person can't afford a hybrid, what good is it in terms of reducing pollution?

Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

[billmosby]

Storage could make sense...

Adding the storage capacity of a lot of plug-in hybrids would allow
a greater percentage of inherently-variable wind and solar
electricity to be added to the grid. I'd want to look into whether the
batteries are cycled more than they would be otherwise be, though,
and therefore whether or not they would wear out more quickly
before I signed up for a program like this. Could affect the
profitability of the scheme for the car owner.

[disco-legend-zeke]

i only go 20 miles a night anyhow.

Having a heat engine on board makes sense for longer trips.

Maybe it could be trailer mounted, and left behind for local trips.

[weebnuts]

what?

this is the stupidest idea I've seen. It's all a marketing ploy, and has nothing to do with actually making a difference.

[theBike45]

Don't mess with my battery!

Don'tr these folks know that every charge/discharge cycle reduces the lifespan of a battery? Do they really think I want the utility company to wear out my battery so they can find some use for their mostly useless wind powered electricity. Build nuclear plants and stop wasting billions on errecting wind turbines that
mostly do nothing eccept screw up the grid's operations. I'm tired of being held hostage by California's environmental morons. Ask those folks how much those 100 megawatt windfarms REALLY produce (about 25 megawatts) and when they produce it (in Texas during 2006, wind generated a pathetic 2.5% capacity during peak demand, which means all that money for turbines meant nothing when it came time to increase capacity. New power plants still have to be constructed every single year and just as many as if wind power didn't even exist.).
Wind truly sucks.

[billmosby]

Nukes would make more sense!

Thanks for mentioning it. I have gotten a bit tired of mentioning
nukes myself, given the responses I sometimes get. Did you ever
take a look at the Integral Fast Reactor concept? Greatly reduced
waste mass and lifetime, increased fuel use efficiency, increased
reactor safety, reduced proliferation risk, etc. Google it sometime if
you're interested.

[twotall610]

Still not the answer

The Hybrids are still not the answer. They still contribute to the
problem. No matter if they get 100 mpg. You still end up putting
the same amount of CO2 into the air, it just takes a little longer.
One technology that answers the problem is the compressed air
car that is being developed in France.
http://www.theaircar.com/
Even this is a stop gap because you can switch over to run gas.
A compressed -air car using Angelo Di Pietro design would work
better.
http://pesn.com/
2006/05/11/9500269_Engineair_Compressed-Air_Motor/

The existing infrastructure could be use,just convert the gas
pumps to air compressors. No pollution from gas spills,fumes.
During sunny days,use solar to run the compressors like the
Hydrogen filling station in Las Vegas, without the danger of a
fire or explosion.

[Renegade Knight]

Hybrids a partial answer

You are right in that hybrids still create CO2. You are wrong in that they create less per mile. Over the life of the car the Hybrid will create less CO2 than a non hybrid. They are a partial answer and a way to slow things down. Which may not be perfect but it's a step in the right direction and it's one that people can take right now instead of waiting.

[grant_stevens]

Re: Still not the answer

The energy required to compress that air still has to come from somewhere. As sexy as the thought of an "air engine" is, chemical batteries and electric motors are far more efficient than compressor pumps and compressed air motors.
Also, electric motors have been around for more than a century and are a well-understood, easily deployable technology. Air motors of the scale necessary to move a vehicle are the domain of fanciful French day-dreamers.

[`WarpKat]

I'll Take the Cheap Jab

Hexavalent Chromium Batteries.

[Orion Blastar]

I'll take the expensive jab

Antimatter Dilithium Crystals.

:)

[Rbohn]

DC to AC conversion makes idea pointless

The concept of charging a hybrid at different times of day is
good, but it will never make economic sense to sell back from an
auto into a central grid. This would require converting the car's
DC power back to AC, which is hundreds of dollars capital cost
for something that would only be used 100 hours per year. Add
to that the lower inherent efficiency of an auto engine burning
gasoline (compared to a power plant burning oil), and the wear
and tear of running the engine. Even if you "ignore economics,"
or in PG&E's case persuade its ratepayers to subsidize the whole
project, the CO2 impact of this concept is dubious, as others
have suggested.

[billmosby]

Engine probably would run

Thanks for pointing out that if the electricity sold back to the utility
came from the car's engine, it would be pointless. Maybe the idea
would be just to use the "top" portion of the battery charge, and
save enough charge to get you to work and home, perhaps using
the engine only as much as you might without selling power.
Sounds doubtful that would work much of the time, though.

[fcekuahd]

Not true

All you need is an inverter. You can buy 12V DC to 115V AC inverters for about $10. The larger issue would be the switching and metering required to make this scheme work.

[disco-legend-zeke]

Off Peak >>> Peak == profit.

The differential between "dump," "off peak," "peak," and "spot" electricity prices make any form of off-grid storage a profit center.

Any renewable collection system relies on a DC storage component. Net Metering, a federally mandated program that requires the electric utility to pay you the same price that they charge you for electricity, is a great deal for the utility and for owners of solar to electricity capacity, the most power is generated during the afternoon hours, just when the demand is highest. Then in the evening, when the homeowner no longer is a net seller, the grid has plenty of overcapacity.

This is just the opposite side of the coin from storing late night and selling it. This here $10,000 battery only holds $.90 worth of electricity at Las Vegas retail prices.

If you could fill the battery every night with penny electricity, and sell all of it for full price every day, you would make 80 cents a day.

Assuming no other maintainence cost, your battery would pay for itself every 30 years or so.

BUT: If you could run the engine of this car on natural gas, which is plentiful and cheap, the electrical energy could be sold to the grid, and the "waste" heat used to heat or cool the home.

Pacific Gas and Electric is the perfect energy company to benefit from these scenerios. They get it, and aren't afraid to fund research.

And, of couse, every lifeform on earth benefits from the carbon savings.

[fcekuahd]

The real problem with this scheme...

is that if people move to electric or plug-in hybrid cars in any significant numbers, the "off peak" hours will quickly cease to be "off peak" because people will be charging their batteries overnight.

[twotall610]

He's a salesman

This guy is a "Car salesman",he makes it look like you will make
millions off of his scheme. Charge at night, sell back in the
morning, then run on gas to get to work. Defeats the purpose.
Why not just buy a load of batteries, store them in the basement
and charge at night , sell back in the morning.

[twotall610]

?

How did this guy become a vice -president. Not on brain power.
Must be related to the CEO.