Comments on: 'Power plants' in the basement heat up

Combined heat and power system sized down to the average home packs on-site power generation and high energy efficiency.

[jamie.p.walsh]

I like where this idea is heading.

Eventually, homes will be constructed with various supplemental energy/heating systems that could help alleviate their dependence on the grid.

[tundraboy]

You're barking up the wrong tree

Dependence on the grid isn't the problem. Dependence on
carbon-spewing fuels, primarily of the fossil variety, is.

[StanJasek]

Bush should offer subsidies on this!

The poorly laid out and uncreative Energy Independence plans of George W.Bush, should have includued substantail tax credits and subsidies for this mini-CHP technology and other distributed generation technologies versus the continuing support for the ethanol "heavy" plans.

Combine the min-CHP with a solar/PV system and consumers will be FREE from the enslavement of the monopoly electric utilities. Distributed Generation(DG) is getting a huge boost with the mini-CHP.

Efficiency and cycle efficiency are key to saving energy and money. The mini CHP with 90% cycle efficency is going to be a huge market winner. Bring'em on!

[phrogdriver71]

Get Free

Hey Stan,

If you want to get free....join the Amish since they don't use any
electricty. It's not just the "W"s plan but also the responsibility of
congress.....oh yeah....and the voting public!

[sbwinn]

Free?

First of all, the 90% efficiency was for gas heaters not a gas
operated engine. This thing will produce energy and use the
heat by-product to warm up the house. When a heater is just a
heater it can be up to 90% efficient. When this thing is
generating electricity (which is really the whole point) it won't be
anywhere near that.

It would be very nice of Bush or any other government figure to
offer subsidies / rebates on something like this. I think it might
be a little too expensively for them to afford personally though.
So they would have to do what government always does, stick a
gun to someone's head and force them to give up their money
so someone else can get a cheaper energy appliance.

If mini-CHP technology turns out great energy savings for its
owners, people will be running to it on their own. If on the other
hand, they prefer to not have dishwasher noise 24/7 and an
inflated gas bill, they might wait for something else to come
along.

[Too Old For IT]

Disaagree, but only in part ...

My fear is not so much enslavement by the monopoly electric utilities.

I am truly afraid of some Islamic mullah or caliphate deciding that the good citizens of the United States need to fork over the Jizyah tax (as if we don't already via bloated oil prices!!), and our foreign-oil addicted government is too weak to say ?no?.

[FutureGuy]

No...

you are talking about Bush remember. I don't think the oil companies would approve, they would rather have that money as tax rebates.

[Below Meigh]

I predicted this years ago...

and just wait until the Japanese industry gets into it (ie Honda, Fujitsu HI,...).
Imagine a unit that recycles water (into potable or steam systems), waste (into fuel and inert potting matter) and heat into home system power plant. Heating, cooling, waste-recycler and electricity. All consumer friendly or partially-serviceable.
Companies like Lennox should see that the homeowner needs to be independent from the grid and local sewage, municipalities.

[sanenazok]

err, say what?

potting matter? Are you nuts? Go ahead, YOU can do that. Once I put "something" down the drain I don't want it in my house no more. Sorry, waste purification is too complex for a home-based unit. Plus how would that generate electricity to make the home efficient from the grid? Purifying water takes a ton of chemicals and energy, not to mention open space.

Looks like your idea is a "little" different from this one inasmuch as your idea is impossible and pointless while this is an actual product that works.

[MKenzie]

FIAT TOTEM

Sound like the Fiat totem, that used the Fiat 124 engine, and was available back in 1979.

[iconoklast]

minor correction

The base engine Fiat used was the 127 unit. This engine uses much more conservative timing and induction porting to gain economy. The 124 was designed for performance rather than economy.

[jjaser]

Micro-CHP great, but.....

Home heating is perhaps the only case of extremely efficient use of fuel- a a common natural gas furnace/boiler runs well in excess of 90% efficency. The proposed system uses natural gas to create electricity not really novel, but is cool from a distributed generation perspective. However, an internal combustion engine in my basement doesn't seem to be much of a breakthrough- just packaging. Now if it gasified your garbage and junk-wood into fuel-gas and ran off that, well that would be something.

[ben::zen]

Probably the next step

Well, it's not really viable right now, but soon, that should be possible. Garbage compaction and fuel production rolled into one? Intriguing idea, especially if organic plastics are developed. Right now, it takes hundreds of years for plastic bottles to decompose, but once we develop easier methods, and safer materials, the technology will become availiable.

[TV James]

What about power outtages?

Does it work when the power is out? That is, if the power company that provides power to the house goes dark, will this unit, since it burns natural gas, continue to function and produce electricity?

That alone would be a huge selling point for me, being a Puget Sound Energy customer. I'm tired of the power outtages.

[climateguy]

Backup power mode

As the article suggests, the system is designed to run as a backup power source in the event of a grid outage. In this mode, the system can generate 2.0 KW. This is not typically enough to supply a whole home with power, but it is enough to run some really important loads, such as your heating system, a well or sump pump, refrigerator, and some lights. Enough to protect the structure and its occupants when there is no grid power.

The advantage of this system over a larger backup only generator is that this system will pay for itself instead of sitting unused 99+% of the time.

[IanrJ]

Some questions

This system uses natural gas, so how is this cost incorporated in the "savings". Yes it reduces electricity bills, but what effect does it have on gas usage versus the normal gas furnace? In short does the honda combustion engine use more or less gas than a normal gas furnace?
Also: Presumably, in winter, the Honda natural gas powered engine gets quite a work out. WHat's the life cycle of sunch and engine and what's the cost of eventual replacement?
ANother Question: What's the noise level associated with a combustion engine in the basement? I have friends with back up engines for electricity, but these are always located OUTSIDE of the house. Any issues here?
Thanks

[mlamonica]

some answers

From talking the company and a customer, I can take a stab at answering some of these. It's not clear that your gas usage will go down dramatically, but the heating unit itself (separate from the power generator) is very high efficiency. Also, the generator creates heat, which means in theory the heating unit shouldn't work as hard.
Don't know about the projected life of the Honda engine but clearly heating units are designed for a long time.
The customer I spoke to said he can hear the generator working. Noise level on the order of a dish washer.

[bucks777]

Solar Power

There is another similar company using Solar Energy that rents the system so there is no large cash out lay (just a deposit)
http://www.clickaudit.com/goto/?18961 The cost is the one Biggest Problems why more people are not using this Technology and maybe they have the answer.

[Sparky672]

That solar setup is 80% less powerful

What is the physical size of Solar system that can put out 1.2 KW,
the same as this home generator?

That would be bigger than your house.

I clicked your link and found out that that solar system puts out
only 250 Watts during peak or one fifth the power of the Honda
generator in the article.

[Sparky672]

Not as much $aving for some states.

quoting article: "That's because the power generated in their
homes--about 1.2 kilowatts--offsets their monthly, grid-
delivered electricity and is subtracted from their bill. If the power
produced exceeds the electrical needs at a given moment, the
meter runs backward as power is fed back onto the grid."

This is just not true for states like Illinois where you are not
allowed to tie into the grid directly. If you want to do something
like this, the law states that you are not allowed to run your
meter backwards. You have to install a second meter to track
outgoing power separate from incoming.

Because in Illinois, they only pay back a fraction per KW-hr of
what they charge you to use a KW-hr.

In other words, if you're not home using the power you're
generating, you're not offsetting the charges on a 1 to 1 basis.
It's still great if you don't have to purchase any power but you
won't be making as much money as you would have paid them
for the same amount of power. I don't have the exact figures
but they only pay you something like 25% of what they would
have charged you for the same amount of power.

Why? They also maintain the power grid, they argue. So they
believe they are entitled to charge more for the electricity.

Illinois started deregulating this month where they have separate
line items on the bill for power and for distribution. I'm not sure
yet how this effects everything else I said.

[climateguy]

NetMetering

Most states allow "Net Metering" for renewable energy technologies such as solar and wind. Many other states are adopting the same rules for Micro-CHP systems like the Climate Energy Freewatt system described in the article. Net Metering will give owners of such a system full retail credit anytime they produce more power than they can use.

The Freewatt system is not sized to be a net producer of electricity, but rather to replace a significant portion of the power that you would normally have to purchase from the grid.

[jessadam]

Then there's the rest of us...

... who live in sunny climes, prefer cooling most of the year, and
would get little use of this product. Here is where solar has the
most potential. If I find the right product, I'd use it with or without
government incentives. Maybe for a change the consumer can drive
the decisions rather than industry lobbyists.

[boggart]

Old Idea, New Sales Pitch

This idea has been around for nearly thirty years. The reason it has not caught on is the maths are flawed.
Even if you use free fuel like pig or chicken **** you need an expensive plant to convert it into combustible gas. And the surplus heat from the engine is nowhere near enough to heat a home.
Micro - generation, like wind power is a total non starter. They are a great profit maker for unscrupulous companies who don't care abour accuracy in their sales literature. Solar power has potential but tidal and run of river generation schemes offer the best way forward but can only work with massive public investment. So we have to abandon free market capitalism to save the world.
Which would be two steps forward at once.
BTW watch out for micro-generation based pyramid selling schemes. That' how dodgy the idea is.


http://machiavelli.blog.co.uk/main

[climateguy]

Thomas Edison

Combined heat and power has been around since the very first power stations were being built. Even Thomas Edison recognized the inherent waste of producing electricity at low efficiency and throwing away the resulting heat. Typical power plants today throw away enormous amounts heat that could be better utilized.

The heat output from the engine is enough to heat a decent sized home on a moderate day, and provide more than half of the total heat required to a home during the course of the year. Remember that heating equipment is normally sized to meet the demand on the coldest day of the year, most of the time much less heat is needed.

[Too Old For IT]

Methane

The city of Dayton, back around 30 years ago, tried power generation using methane from dump sites and waste treatment.

The biggest problem was that the meters, regulators and pipes rotted in weeks from the highly acidic gas.

[ruffrider44]

Great Idea ....

but hardly new .. Mechanix Illustrated(May 82) cover page .. a study done by GM .. in the article using then current technology the system would be the same as a 95% efficient furnace(common today) but todays engines/electrical systems are much more efficient... possible savings(35%) or even better. BTW the article was written by a Paul Wiessler .. i tried a Google search but all info was recent .. I too have thought of this system since reading the article .. i also have a 3KVA UPStation power backup... maybe that could be tied in to run electrical without the engine running constantly.. also hot water heat under basement floor .. Hmmmmmmm it might work, Joe

[ruffrider44]

Great Idea ....

but hardly new .. Mechanix Illustrated(May 82) cover page .. a study done by GM .. in the article using then current technology the system would be the same as a 95% efficient furnace(common today) but todays engines/electrical systems are much more efficient... possible savings(35%) or even better. BTW the article was written by a Paul Wiessler .. i tried a Google search but all info was recent .. I too have thought of this system since reading the article .. i also have a 3KVA UPStation power backup... maybe that could be tied in to run electrical without the engine running constantly.. also hot water heat under basement floor .. Hmmmmmmm it might work, Joe

[llapanowski]

How much Natural Gas does it burn, What about propane

How much Natural Gas does it burn in relation to say running a high efficiency natural gas furnace?
Is there a propane model available?

[climateguy]

Gas Usage

When compared to a 90%+ efficient gas furnace, the gas usage will increase modestly, approximately 5%-7%. However the resulting value of the thousands of kilowatt-hours of electrical production more than offset the cost of that additional gas.

It's important to note that most people who purchase a Freewatt system will be replacing older, much less efficient equipment and as such will see no change or even a reduction in their heating fuel usage.

The system will run on propane as well as natural gas.

[nmoore6676]

Home power generation

It sounds good, except for the feeding back to the grid. When you install a backup generator a fail safe transfer switch to isolate your system from the grid is mandatory. The rationale is that power crews restoring downed lines could be injured by an unexpectedly energized circuit. The transformer that steps down the high voltage distribution would step up the back fed power. I don't think you would be allowed to feed the power grid.

[Sparky672]

you certainly can...

You are confusing two different systems.

Two things are needed to feed power back onto the grid...

1. Permission from the power company. (and maybe a second
outgoing meter depending on your state's laws)

2. A special synchronizing switch. It's an expensive electronic
box with a switch that syncs the voltage phase of the generator
to the grid before tying it in. <<- This is your new fail-safe
device.

It's the same system you'd install with a windmill generator.

Otherwise you'd be correct. If you just plugged a regular home
generator into the grid, you blow up the generator, your panel,
and maybe something else.

[tundraboy]

Not a long term solution

Do I want all my neighbors running internal combustion engines
day in and day out spewing pollution and green house gases
into the air? Naaaaah.

Do I want to pay for the infratructure to monitor all these
engines to make sure their emissions controls are being
maintatined properly? Naaaah.

We need to get away from burning fossil fuels. And this doesn't
do it.

[climateguy]

Medium term solution

The natural gas driven Freewatt system has a 3-way catalytic converter that produces less emissions on a per kilowatt-hour basis than the electrical grid in aggregate. Also, because so much of the fuel energy is captured for useful purposes, the overall fuel usage is significantly lower than the combination of a power plant and heating system.

Micro-CHP represents a large step in fuel efficiency. It certainly does not eliminate the need to use fossil fuels, however it does use fossil fuels in a much more responsible and efficient way than we are doing today.

It would be great if in the blink of an eye everyone converted to solar heating and electric or if there was a breakthrough in nuclear fusion. However the reality of the near term is that people are going to be replacing their fuel burning heating systems with other fuel burning heating systems and the Freewatt system allows us all to use the fuel that we are going to be burning anyway to get the most value out of it.

[pn235]

Next step in power generation.

60% of our electrical power is generated by coal burning power plants that are the dirtiest way to produce power we have. If I can reduce that by using natural gas which is the cleanest producer of power than it seems like a good trade-off. Co-generation plants have been around for years because they make good economic sense. Not until the anti-nuke crowd sees the light(sic) will we be able to get away from fossil fuel generated power.

[tundraboy]

But on a positive note . . .

How about if you replace that Honda engine with a fuel cell that
runs on natural gas?

[Sparky672]

because...

quoting: "How about if you replace that Honda engine with a fuel
cell that runs on natural gas?"

Probably because instead of $13,000 for a 1.2 KW device, you'd
be paying several times more for a fuel cell of that size. That
makes this technology impractical for the average home at this
time.

When you compare KW to size, nothing yet comes close to the
practicality of just rotating the shaft of a conventional generator.

Even wind-power which uses the exact same type of generators
are not practical when you compare the size of blades required
to generate the same rotational forces as super-heated steam or
hydro-electric turbines.

[El Kabong]

What about methane?

Any chance the Honda could run using fumes from a farm, landfill, or sewage plant?

[dmm]

Heat house with appliances

My kids like to leave on the TV, the PCs, the lights, etc., which of course generates a lot of waste heat. In the winter I don't mind so much, since it just means I'm heating the house with electricity instead of the gas furnace (so it's slightly more expensive). But in the summer....AAAARRRGH!!! TURN OFF THE $#%@!* LIGHTS!