Comments on: The plot behind killing electric cars

Why are we still driving gasoline-powered cars? CNET News.com's Michael Kanellos says there's plenty of blame to go around.

[kombibus]

How to build an electric car

I've heard all the talk and debate on whether go electric or conventional gas. Conventional gas autos suffer from one significant flaw that the whole debate is about, "Power to Weight" ratio. I used to own an ISUZU Rodeo with a miniscule 4 cylinder motor. It sucked as much gas as one of those GM boats made back in the 70's. Volkswagen on the other hand made a good car that ranged from 25 to 32 miles per gallon, but the conplaints of the EPA put that car into museums and car collection. Power to weight ratio is just that. You need the right power plant with enough output to equal the "Weight" of the carriage that it is pushing down the road. My suggestion would be a 1.3 liter powerplant to carry a Polycarbonate carriage. This would work fine for a conventional auto, but for an electric car, I would use the polycarbonate chassis with a Lithium ion battery and a turbine generator the size of large soup can. The power to weight ratio would not be as advantagious, but one could power the batteries and maintain sufficient power to increase a driving distance. The problem is making the chassis in large quanities to supply the demand. But this would be my designs for an efficient automobile that would use less fossil resources, and provide an altenative to the already laughable products being pushed onto the consumer as "Energy Efficient". People need to wake up and smell the oil profits.

[the.sw.man]

Biased and inaccurate

Okay, some good points in the article, but it seriously biased and contains numerous inaccuracies. Apologies for the length of my post.

I'll respond to each of his points:

Points 1 and 2: He harps on 'conspiracy theory' repeatedly. This straw-man term is invoked by opponents of electric cars, not supporters. I do not personally believe that any conspiring between oil producers and car makers was necessary to kill the electric cars of the 90's. Entities do not necessarily conspire simply because they share the same goal. So all the points he makes showing how unlikely a conspiracy would be, are just silly.

Points 2 and 3: Toyota's electric car disappeared from the market because the batteries did. The patents for the NIMH batteries used in the EV1 and Toyota RAV4 EV were obtained by GM and sold to Chevron/Texaco. Toyota was then sued by the oil company (through Cobasys, the company they formed to manage the patents.) Toyota was forced to stop making EV sized NIMH batteries, and signed an agreement specifying exactly what they could use NIMHs for.

Incidentally, why did Cobasys stop the manufacture of all large-sized NIMH batteries? There are other markets for large capacity batteries, too (golf carts, boats, power leveling, etc.) Why did they give up all those markets for large batteries? (Cobasys is beginning to relent now that there's competition in the EV battery business. But just a little.)

Point 4: '...Sales weren't great and neither were the cars. There was a lot of customer curiosity, but few walked out of the showroom with a sales contract...'
Why do the EV history revisionists continue to pretend that these cars were for sale? Only leases were allowed, and for most of the RAV4 EVs life, only fleet leases were allowed. Only a very few RAV4 EVs were ever permitted to be sold. Those few used RAV4 EVs sell for record prices on eBay now, usually for double or better their original selling price. What does that say about potential demand?

The EV1 had a waiting list with at least 5,000 people on it - just to lease the car. If the car had been marketed, and was actually for sale, then conclusions could be drawn. You certainly can't comment of the sales of cars that weren't for sale.

Point 5: '...The battery still only had a five-year life. It didn't last the life of the car, so how do you handle that issue?'
The Toyota RAV4 EVs from that period that are still on the road today have well over 100,000 miles on the original NIMH batteries. Newer EV batteries, like Altairnanos, promise lifetimes 2 or 3 times that. Ditto supercapacitors, if we ever get that technology. But even lead-acid batteries aren't so bad. My own EV has a $800 battery pack that lasts about 20,000 miles. That's 4 cents per mile - add that to my electricity cost of 1 cent per mile - and that's 5 cents, which handily beats the 10 to 30 cents/mile that gasoline costs.

Point 6: '...There is no Moore's Law for batteries that allows them to get cheaper, faster and better at a steady rate over time.'
That statement would have been true 20 years ago, but not now. It's no coincidence that there has been little progress in batteries until recently. That's because it's not autos that drive battery innovation (car makers couldn't care less), it's cellphones and notebook computers that are spurring research. So the pace of battery research is suddenly lurching forward. There's lots of exciting battery technology evolving now, like Altairnano, EESTOR, Firefly, NIMH, and A123, just to name the better known ones.

Point 7: '...Batteries are expensive too.'
EV battery expense is mostly a function of low sales volume. But even with expensive batteries, if the cost is amortized over the miles driven, as I did in point 5 above, battery costs can be offset by low operating and fuel costs.

Point 8: '...consumers are cheap and don't want to be inconvenienced by a car that will die on the freeway'
I'm cheap, too, and it is exactly why I drive an electric car (an inexpensive conversion - EVs can be found inexpensively. See http://squidoo.com/cheap-electric-car ) As I pointed out above, my cost per mile is only about 5 cents, several times cheaper than my gas vehicle. I don't like cars that die on the freeway either. My EV, built in 1981, has never stranded me, or had motor trouble of any kind - electric motors are extremely reliable. Running out of charge is not sudden, like running out of gas. You've got plenty of time to find an electric outlet somewhere. But I don't run out of juice on the highway for the same reason I don't run out of gas on the highway - I'm not stupid!

[cidman2001]

I don't understand how you got this far...

All bombast aside, this has to be one of the most poorly written and researched article I've ever read here at CNET. This guy needs an editor above him....

[rendered]

What about now.

Well, whatever the argument on the past might be does not matter as much as what we do now. Personally I think the time of the electric car is now. What convinced me is the Nanophosphate Batteries from A123Systems. A battery that last ten years, fully charges in about five minutes and can stand 480° without the threat of exploding is the answerer. This kind of battery is here now.


The only thing left is the eclectic grid issue which is why I think in the long run solar panels and electric cars will have to go hand in hand.

[UITD]

Are you kidding?

Keep spreading the fear and doom of the non existent global warming BS. Smooth move, ex-lax. No one with a brain inside their skull believes that Gore bullsh*t.

[inachu]

Also a plot to kill water powered cars as well.

Go on youtube and search for water power:
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=water+power&search=Search

Using plain tap water is a viable energy source.
Of course the critics want to make you think it is impossible as they are paid by the oil companies to shut the free power source as it hurts the oil companies.

[xcgeek]

You have got to be kidding

anyone who believes the "water fuel" myth hasn't passed high school chemistry or physics. There is no such thing as free energy, it takes HUGE energy to extract browns gas (hydrogen) from water via electrolysis or microwaves. Where do you think THAT energy comes from, it has to be stored in batteries of course and if you are storing so much in batteries anyway why not go straight to an electric motor to power the car and forget all the middle crap as all those energy transfers produce loss and inefficiencies.

[K A Cheah]

Agreed That Not Only A Plot But More is in place to suppress Water Power

Water Power, the divine gift as the Alternative Fuel

In our school days we have learnt in Physics that it is possible to split water into its basic the atomic components with the application of electricity but even great scientists overlooked the fact that Water is the better and safer storage of Power, an Enormous Amount of Power is stored efficiently, the promise water has as an alternative fuel has been unlimited using a simple process of using electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen only when required, where both the hydrogen & oxygen (HHO) gases power to drive a car's internal combustion engine will also recharge the battery that originally did the electrolysis splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen and also the hydrogen & oxygen gases will be only produced when needed just before starting the car's internal combustion engine and the electrolysis process will be switched-off when switching off the said car's engine at the same time. This said hydrogen & oxygen gases-run engines will run cars, SUVs, trucks, buses, trains and airplanes so cheaply and successfully that no other alternative fuels would ever be needed. Only the minimum of 9 volts of Electricity would be sufficiently required to split Water by electrolysis successfully that could be gotten from any Car's inherent existing Car Battery without needing any additional or extra Battery that would be needed to be added to work the HHO gases supply to run the car. The same principles will also be applicable to run the present Coal or Gas Fired Power Stations which will save most money from fuel costs and they can reduce their present tariffs by 80% with hydrogen & oxygen gases (HHO) as their final fuel source, the released of Greenhouses gases, CO2 & NO2, would also be eliminated. But these technologies will be suppressed owing to big business money and political scams from Oil Producers and other vested interests. They might even commit murder to suppress these inventions from gaining popularity and flourishing successfully.

Please watch related report of the Murdered Water Car Inventor:- Link Here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU&mode=related&search =

[drivin98]

Better and better

It's great to hear someone is taking advantage of the electric vehicle technology that exists now. Have heart, batteries are steadily improving. They are steadily becoming better and once we can get a little mass production going, much cheaper. I think i.c.e. powered vehicles will be a bad joke in twenty years. I've read some folks at G.M. say the demise of the i.c.e. will be sooner.
I'd be nice if we can have a war on gasoline to speed things along.

[drivin98]

ooops

That was meant to be a reply to "Batteries Still Suck"....sorry

[brundlefly76]

Tired of the electric car hype

I dont know why people are so upset about the electric car when their are HYBRID cars. IMHO, an electric car is never more appealing then a Hybrid, not because of the limited range - but more specifically the inability to refuel enroute.

I mean, why would people choose to buy an electric car, which cannot be refueled during a trip to create virtually unlimited range, vs a hybrid, which has *near zero* emissions, never needs to be plugged in, and has the exact same utility of a traditional car?

Yes, I understand most people drive an average of 29 miles a day, but that doesnt mean all their trips are under 70 miles, not by a longshot.

[the.sw.man]

Hybrid Hype

The next generation of hybrids - the plug-in kind - will be exciting, because those will be true electric cars, with gasoline as a backup for longer trips.

The present generation of hybrids, however, are only a modest improvement over gas-fueled autos, since all the energy to drive them still comes from gasoline.

Electric cars, and plug-in hybrids are exciting because the cost of fuel is so much lower - as little as 1 cent per mile when driving off grid electricity.

[ksom2006]

Electric car cannot survive on its own

In order for electric car to flourish, a lot of things has to happen.

First, oil price has to go up, much higher than what we have today to drive people to use other energy source.

Second, we cannot extract electricity from the ground. Solar, hydro and wind power technologies are far behind what fossil fuel can provide us. Unless people come to their sense and embrace nuclear energy, it would take more than just a few decade for human to find an alternative. Of course, there is also the option of going back to the stone age and not drive a car.

[solrosenberg]

Electric cars a step backwards

Electric cars don't reduce emissions, they just relocate them to the power plant. If people want to drive cars, they should have to live in the environment created by their emissions. Thus by shifting the environmental costs elsewhere electric cars are actually a step backwards.

[Unblver]

Electric cars a step backwards

Assuming that electricity is being generated by coal or oil, you are still wrong. A stationary generating plant can be, and are, run cleaner and more efficiently that millions of individual vehicles. And electricity can be generated by clean technologies. Wind, solar, geothermal, hydro-electric. Internal combusion engines will always pollute. Electric motors can be 100% non-polluting. And I can charge my EV with the solar panels on my roof. Can you refine oil in your backyard?

[the.sw.man]

Don't believe oil-industry disinformation

EVs are much cleaner, even when power plants burn dirty fuel - because the efficiencies of power generation, distribution, and utilization are far higher for electric cars.

Source:

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/electric-powered-cars.html

"...in a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs were significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity generation process produces less than 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to 3000 pounds for ICE vehicles."

[nbvail]

Where will all of the electricity come from?

If we all drove electric cars the grid would fail daily.

[Unblver]

Where will all of the electricity come from?

Most EVs charge at night when there is excess power generation capacity. And anyone aware enough to drive an EV is likely to invest in solar panels to offset daytime charging.

[Reachstacker]

grid

That can be fixed easy enough :)

[drtyrell]

Love shill pieces

These pieces never really mention any facts, but try to take you
down a journey of convoluted thought to rationalize away the
idea that is blatantly true. GM leased the first electric car and
refused to sell them to eager buyers because it was a conspiracy
from the beginning. Some owners were willing to pay $60k for
the car, and they were denied as they watched their vehicles
towed, and shredded.

I dearly hope there is a special place for shills like you Mr.
Kanellos. You must think there is a special place for you at the
top next to the Rockefellers? It's obvious that those who have
been used by those in control always get a plush spot at the top
with a fat salary and equal riches. Oh that's right, they actually
don't. They get used up, destroyed, and often times killed off.

C|NET is forever a manipulated beast of yellow journalism.

[kulro]

amazing

Reading the article and the responses to it remind me of the
sayings, "the less someone knows about a subject, the easier it is
to do" and " at this step a miracle happens". It seems to me there is
an addition to these "if i dont get my way it must be a conspiracy".
Conspiracies are difficult to maintain so the first saying supports
this also.

[the.sw.man]

Electricity comes from the wall socket...

There's plenty of juice available off-peak, when EVs will be charging. Source:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061211221149.htm

Mileage From Megawatts: Study Finds Enough Electric Capacity To 'Fill Up' Plug-in Vehicles

Science Daily ? If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics.

[angelfast]

Some helpful tips....

Here are some tips on how you can buy and have a quality used car, so as you would not be replacing unnecessary parts along the way...Hope, this might help...
Tips & Warning
? As a final precaution, take the car to a mechanic, who should charge a reasonable fee to check over a used car. The seller should agree to this, but may require that you leave a deposit. If the seller won't let you take the car, offer to meet him or her at a mutually convenient garage.
? If you give the seller a deposit in order to take the car to have it checked, make sure to write out an agreement stating that the deposit will be returned immediately if you decide not to buy the car.
If the vehicle's mileage appears unusually low, have a mechanic determine whether someone has tampered with the odometer. If so, the seller must refund any money you have paid and may be liable for punitive damages under federal and state odometer laws?
This is how I acquire my car; I inspected all its auto parts from exterior and interior aspect down to its nissan aftermarket parts and other accessories. By doing so, you could be sure of the quality of vehicle you are getting?=)

[SincereHor]

Wonder who manufacture the most vital ingredient in the batteries for the electric car ???