Comments on: The greening of the city bus

The bus has never been a glamorous way to get around, but it is becoming a showcase for energy efficiency.
Photos: Green buses for San Francisco

[mstapley]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses Prooving Big Hit in London

Although, as with any new technology, they are at the moment
expensive to buy and require investment in new fueling
facilities, the trial of fuel cell buses in London has been a huge
success. The trial has yet again been extended until at least
January 2007 and the mayor has set a target of 70 hydrogen
buses in London to be operational by 2010. See:
http://www.fuel-cell-bus-club.com
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/112

[mstapley]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses Prooving Big Hit in London

Although, as with any new technology, they are at the moment
expensive to buy and require investment in new fueling
facilities, the trial of fuel cell buses in London has been a huge
success. The trial has yet again been extended until at least
January 2007 and the mayor has set a target of 70 hydrogen
buses in London to be operational by 2010. See:
http://www.fuel-cell-bus-club.com
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/112

[mstapley]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses are a Big Hit in London

Although, as with any new technology, they are at the moment
expensive to buy and require investment in new fueling
facilities, the trial of fuel cell buses in London has been a huge
success. The trial has yet again been extended until at least
January 2007 and the mayor has set a target of 70 hydrogen
buses in London to be operational by 2010. See:
http://www.fuel-cell-bus-club.com
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/112

[mstapley]

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses are a Big Hit in London

Although, as with any new technology, they are at the moment
expensive to buy and require investment in new fueling
facilities, the trial of fuel cell buses in London has been a huge
success. The trial has yet again been extended until at least
January 2007 and the mayor has set a target of 70 hydrogen
buses in London to be operational by 2010. See:
http://www.fuel-cell-bus-club.com
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/112

[jamie.p.walsh]

How well would a biodiesel or E85 hybrid do?

better fuel efficiency and lessening the dependency on foreign oil.

I like the progress being made.

[jamie.p.walsh]

How well would a biodiesel or E85 hybrid do?

better fuel efficiency and lessening the dependency on foreign oil.

I like the progress being made.

[Budlong]

Net Energy Used

All this sounds very nice. What is missing is an analysis of the net cost of the energy used to provide the electricy or hydrogen to power these vehicles. In the end, that's what counts. Government subsidies can be used to jump-start, but eventually the technology must stand on its own. Any story that does not dicusss this aspect is missing the whole point.

I've not seen such a discussion (can anyone point me to the right place?). If the net cost to grow the corn and brew it into ethanol, or to mine the coal and make it into electricity, or whatever method is used to free the hydrogen atoms from whatever they are bonded to - if that net cost exceeds gasoline, the technologies don't make sense.

It's not a simple subject. But it's not discussed.

Regards

Tom Budlong

[volterwd]

your missing a big point

the major problem with gasoline is that you import from unstable regions of the world. THAT is the reason you need to get off gasoline not because its more efficient energy wise. However since gas is a finite resource the price will eventually far exceed renewable resource energy costs. Do you want to wait to change until then?

[Xat Nam]

you are correct sir!

It is not economically feasible to produce any hydrogen using fossil fuel technology. It takes more energy to create hydrogen than the energy the hydrogen produces. In fact it is a riduculous process, as doing this is increasing global warming as we speak. Best to concentrate research to isolate the molecules in an energy efficient manner.

[Budlong]

Net Energy Used

All this sounds very nice. What is missing is an analysis of the net cost of the energy used to provide the electricy or hydrogen to power these vehicles. In the end, that's what counts. Government subsidies can be used to jump-start, but eventually the technology must stand on its own. Any story that does not dicusss this aspect is missing the whole point.

I've not seen such a discussion (can anyone point me to the right place?). If the net cost to grow the corn and brew it into ethanol, or to mine the coal and make it into electricity, or whatever method is used to free the hydrogen atoms from whatever they are bonded to - if that net cost exceeds gasoline, the technologies don't make sense.

It's not a simple subject. But it's not discussed.

Regards

Tom Budlong

[volterwd]

your missing a big point

the major problem with gasoline is that you import from unstable regions of the world. THAT is the reason you need to get off gasoline not because its more efficient energy wise. However since gas is a finite resource the price will eventually far exceed renewable resource energy costs. Do you want to wait to change until then?

[Xat Nam]

you are correct sir!

It is not economically feasible to produce any hydrogen using fossil fuel technology. It takes more energy to create hydrogen than the energy the hydrogen produces. In fact it is a riduculous process, as doing this is increasing global warming as we speak. Best to concentrate research to isolate the molecules in an energy efficient manner.

[jonathan.crowe]

Whats so great about this?

So San Fran is buying 56 Hybrid bus's. While I applaud the effort, this hardly qualifies them as a leader in green technology. Did c/net actually do any research about this before they put out the story?

Seattle bought 235 Electric/Hybrid bus's back in 2004. I ride them all the time and they are smooth,quiet and clean. They are articulated and seat 58 passengers.
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/hy-diesel.html


Seattle has somewhere around 500 electric trolley bus's that have no emissions. One cool thing about them is that they use their electric motors to slow down going down the hills and put power back into the overhead grid.
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/a-trolley.html
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/breda-trolley.html
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/g-trolley.html

Seattle also plans to have all 1200 of its bus's running 5% biodiesel blend by the end of 2006. This will mean that they will be buying about a half a million gallons of biodiesel a year which should jumpstart the biodiesel industry in Washingtonstate.
http://www.seattlebiodiesel.com/faq.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/07/seattle_biodies.html
http://www.fuelwerks.com/
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/212618_biodiesel18.html

[alek_nedic]

56 Hybrid bus

http://www.analogstereo.com/mercedes_g_class_owners_manual.htm

[jonathan.crowe]

Whats so great about this?

So San Fran is buying 56 Hybrid bus's. While I applaud the effort, this hardly qualifies them as a leader in green technology. Did c/net actually do any research about this before they put out the story?

Seattle bought 235 Electric/Hybrid bus's back in 2004. I ride them all the time and they are smooth,quiet and clean. They are articulated and seat 58 passengers.
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/hy-diesel.html


Seattle has somewhere around 500 electric trolley bus's that have no emissions. One cool thing about them is that they use their electric motors to slow down going down the hills and put power back into the overhead grid.
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/a-trolley.html
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/breda-trolley.html
http://transit.metrokc.gov/am/vehicles/g-trolley.html

Seattle also plans to have all 1200 of its bus's running 5% biodiesel blend by the end of 2006. This will mean that they will be buying about a half a million gallons of biodiesel a year which should jumpstart the biodiesel industry in Washingtonstate.
http://www.seattlebiodiesel.com/faq.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/07/seattle_biodies.html
http://www.fuelwerks.com/
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/212618_biodiesel18.html

[alek_nedic]

56 Hybrid bus

http://www.analogstereo.com/mercedes_g_class_owners_manual.htm

[feliusrex]

Diesel buses have to go

As much as these hybrids try to tout themselves as 'green', as long as they are burning gasoline or diesel, the pollution is still there. The hydrogen powered busses solve that problem, but the lack of infrastructure to support them is still a ways off. The best solution I've seen for short term are the LNG buses. While not as clean as hydrogen, LNG (basically methane) produces only CO2 and H2O as a combustion product. No more nasty diesel fumes.

[feliusrex]

Diesel buses have to go

As much as these hybrids try to tout themselves as 'green', as long as they are burning gasoline or diesel, the pollution is still there. The hydrogen powered busses solve that problem, but the lack of infrastructure to support them is still a ways off. The best solution I've seen for short term are the LNG buses. While not as clean as hydrogen, LNG (basically methane) produces only CO2 and H2O as a combustion product. No more nasty diesel fumes.