Comments on: In L.A., the hybrid is, like, so last year

While carmakers at the LA Auto Show tout hybrids, the eco-friendly buzz in Southern California is now around biodiesel.
Photos: More from the LA Auto Show

[elwood2]

No greenhouse gases?

Doesn't the burning of ANY fuel create CO2?

Yes

Yes, the burning of any hydrocarbon produces CO2 and H20.

[lingsun]

Burning hydrogen only creates water

Burning hydrogen only creates water.

[posterlogo]

not exactly clean...

Biodiesel is not exactly a "clean" fuel. It still produces CO2 gas. The pro-argument is that this CO2 was already in the atmosphere (and sequestered by plants), rather than buried deep in the earth like fossil fuels. However, the natural cycle is to let the CO2 remain in the biological form and return to the ground. Burning it is just not going to solve the problem we already have. It is a *far* better temporary solution never-the-less than buring fossil fuels, so I am for it in theory. However, the production of usable biodiesel requires the input of energy and chemicals that at some point required fossil fuels to produce. In that sense, it is unclear if these indirect effects negate the positive value of biodiesel.

Greens dont like biodiesel

Biodiesel is a great alternative, and if large scale production could be achieved it'd be a great way to get the US off of imported oil.

That being said, greens dont have much love for biodiesel. For one thing, that 'no greenhouse gas' thing isnt accurate. After you factor in all the increased agriculture and related manufacturing thats required to create the biodiesel in the first place, you may in fact end up releasing more CO2 and methane into the air.

Personally, I couldnt care less as I think this man-made global warming scare is a fairy tale. But even if we shifted completely over to biodiesel, we'd still have the eco-zealots going off about evil SUVs and such.

[indrakanti]

What happen if every one in US

starts driving a biodiesel car? Will the agricultal production of the entire world be able to cope up with the demand, keeping in mind the current demand for fuel?

[marc_90292]

IF WE ALL DRIVE BIODIESEL

and have to raise more pigs to burn them - an idea that gives me the creeps - at least we will flavor the increased C02 gas production with the flowery smell of pigs manure.

[David Arbogast]

It'd be a mess

According to the EIA, agricultural production in the US cannot support 100% adoption of biodiesel fuels. The odds of our ag industry shifting to meet the demand is fairly low given the *true* low demand for such fuels. Why low demand? Because if everybody switched to biodiesel, we'd all have less money... its more expensive.

Already, you see how people react when the price of fuel is increased by 10 or 15 cents... the move to biodiesel will cost everybody at *least* 15 to 20 cents more per gallon... and the fuel will not deliver the same mileage as gasoline or diesel.

[rpms]

Biodiesel: Are we missing the forest for the trees?

It's so funny that we are embracing biodiesel. Within the diesel arena, the real reduction in emissions has come from the introduction of efficient engines and low-sulfur fuel. On a transit bus (a vehicle category for which there is lots of data), biodiesel only reduces emissions by a further 2.8% (net). Biodiesel has a lower energy content, which means one has to burn more of it. Worst of all, biodiesel is not recommended by diesel engine manufacturers. For a sober review of biodiesel, see this presentation, http://www.actransit.org/aboutac/bod/memos/193858.pdf , from which the information in this posting is drawn.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

[towfiq]

Statistics are off

The AC Transit presentation used B20 in the comparisons mentioned -- so the 2.8% number is much higher when using B100.

[furrylogic]

Hybrid and biodiesel are not mutually exclusive concepts

For those who don't understand what a hybrid is, it is important
to note that at its core it is a combination of a combustion
engine and an electric engine. This model can have any kind of a
combustion engine. It could even be an ecodiesel combustion
engine. So, the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

The established goal within the industry is to move to a fuel cell
solution that will produce no emissions. All approaches to get
there (and the final solution) will necessarily have a hybrid
solution. The reason is that in a hybrid solution you are using
several means to recapture energy that is lost by the combustion
engine in the form of electricity. This electricity is stored for
"free" in a battery, which can only power an electric engine.
Rather than using the brakes to slow your car, for example, a
hybrid engine uses a power generator (feels much like down-
shifting in a stick shift) and produces electricity at the same
time.

[lingsun]

No one's going to make an electric / lard car

No one's going to make a car that runs on electricity and lard (excuse me, "biodiesel"). Just like no one's going to make a car that runs on gas, lard, and electricity. Few people would buy either one as well.

[lingsun]

Biodiesel is cheaper than gas

Biodiesel is cheaper than gasoline. The fact that it's "green" fuel probably won't afffect too many people who aren't radical environmentalists.

[David Arbogast]

FLAT WRONG

You really need to do your research. Without taxpayer funded subsidies, the cost of biodiesel is AT LEAST 15 cents more per gallon.

From Energy Information Administration:
Unless soybean oil prices decline dramatically, it does not appear that biodiesel can be produced in large quantities at a cost that is competitive with petroleum diesel. The largest market for biodiesel probably will be as a fuel additive, because EPACT requirements are unlikely to increase significantly over the next 20 years. The ultra-low-sulfur diesel program will offer an opportunity for biodiesel as a lubricity additive and perhaps as a cetane booster as well. Biodiesel may also be marketed for applications in which reducing emissions of particulates and unburned hydrocarbons is paramount, such as school and transit buses. Because additives that improve diesel fuel properties can sell for a price above that of the diesel fuel, the cost disadvantage for biodiesel would not be as great in the additive market.

[AbuLafya]

World burns up 80 million barrels/day

Its not possible to produce so much biodiesel

[val31]

ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS

I THINK THAT IT IS REALLY GREAT THAT THEY ARE STARTING TO BUILD A CAR THAT COULD BE MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE INSTEAD OF JUST TALKING ABOUT IT.. I AM SURE THAT IT WILL BE A GOOD MANY YEARS BEFORE WE HAVE AN ALTERNATE SOURCE THAN GASOLINE BUT IT IS A COMFORTING THING TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE ACTING INSTEAD OF TALKING AND ALSO WE RELY TOO MUCH ON IMPORTED OIL SO ONCE THEY FIND AN ALTERNATIVE IT WOULD BE A POSITIVE BUT THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION- IS THE WORLD READY AND ABLE TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

[ryuko098]

are you sure?

We can produce that much gasoline right now, no prob, even though we're running out. With our current technology, we are actually *overproducing* food! And this food producing technology gets better all the time. There are still many more places where we can grow food, and we are getting better at making more in less space. I see this as a serious possibility for at least the next few decades.

[jhladun]

Biodiesel can be produced from oil rich Algae. There are several development projects ongoing to use algae grown in industrial effluent (from smoke stacks and sewage), which are then harvested and pressed and the oil converted to biodiesel and glycerine (for soap production).

Here is one:
http://gas2.org/2008/03/29/first-algae-biodiesel-plant-goes-online-april-1-2008/

[Blito]

Hydrogen the future

Sure I am excited about all of this diversity but in the end it's hydrogen powered engines that will rule. You can create the fuel in a solar powered fueling station eliminating the need for a refinery. You can run the cars side by side to power whatever you want because of no exhaust fumes; it's safe, its more the future then biodeisal which seems OK but still pollutive, I also think toxic in other ways because of the inconsistancies causeing alergies etc. It's only I think about 40% less emissive thenm oil but naturally the big companies will want o promote biodeisal because it's harder to make and not as efficient. $$$
Still a great start and whatever works at the moment as long as they clean up that air and stop overopoulation.

[airbns]

No, it's not

Because Hydrogen makes things brittle and causes them to fall apart. So you'll end up creating a huge tax on the environment because you'll have to replace your parts every year.

[airbns]

Something else is the future

Back in WWII, the Germans were using rare earth catalysts to extend the milage of diesel engines in U-boats. I've also heard of diesel engines that run on mixtures of oil and water, and on water alone. (energy is releases when you break apart water molecules). The problem with them is that you have to run them fast and hot in order to get them to the point where they can break the strong hydrogen oxygen bond in water, so they tend to break down. This would seem to me to be an easier solved problem than the hydrogen embrittlement problem.

[zaznet]

Alternative Fuel Hybrid?

OK, so we can use other fuels that pollute less. We can make engines that get much better gas mileage. Why not combine these things with a hybrid system to further the benefits?

Ok, sorry, it was too obvious....

[ScullyB]

Used Vegetable Oil

Restaurants have to pay service providers to dispose of it. I save them money, by taking it for free, and all I have to do is filter it twice.

My conversion cost me $5oo, I spend 1 half hour filtering a full tank and my mileage is about the same......screw the diesel, although I still have to run it until I get the vegetable warmed up.

[ContraContrarian]

Hydrogen Myth vs. Battery Reality

I've never seen any store selling hydrogen, but I've seen lots of electricity outlets in my friend's homes. I've never heard of a fuel cell car in production, but they've been making electric cars for over a century. Granted, until the last 10 years batteries have been very heavy and slow to charge. But now that battery technology is advancing so quickly, I think its time to bring the debate to a conclusion. Electric power is cleaner, simpler, cheaper. If GM and Ford won't build them, then the Asians will.

[zaznet]

The many problems of your "Battery Reality"

Electric cars also pollute.

First there is the toxic chemicals of the battery themselves. Imagine having to replace your car engine every 2 or 3 years. All of that being toxic waste every time you replace it. This is also going to be a problem for many Hybrid vehicles that rely on a lot of battery packs to store energy.

Second problem is in how the electricity is produced. There are power plants that still run off coal and that is a heavy polluter. Nuclear power plants are not much better with their hot water byproducts that destroy the habitat of any stream they send that heated water to.

We have a hard time now keeping up with the current power demands of some cities and regions. Add vehicles to the demand and you will see larger energy conservation efforts at the power meter as well as cities unable to sustain the demands.

Electric cars don't show their signs of pollution as directly as do any fuel powered vehicle, but they still pollute plenty.

[Mister C]

Electric just don't get it!

The problem is one of thermodynamics. Simply stated, whenever you have a change of state, say from potential to thermal some of the energy becomes unavailable. It is called entropy and it always increases (without the input of more energy).

In the internal combustion engine it goes from chemical to thermal to mechanical and it is fairly efficient. Around 30%.

With electric vehicles the process has many more steps. The fuel (what ever it may be) still has to be consumed and this is essentially the same as internal combustion (thermodynamically speaking). It is the additional conversions that drive the efficiency into the ground.

First is mechanical to electrical (generator) then transmission losses (power lines) , then electrical to chemical (charge the battery), then storage loss, then convert chemical back to electrical (discharge the battery), and finally electrical to mechanical (make the car go).

With all these transitions the entropy increase becomes substantial. Adding it all up shows that electric cars take 3 to 5 times as much energy to operate as internal combustion ones (at the same level of performance).

And where is all this additional energy going to come from? Only one place, nuclear. It is not at all surprising that some of the biggest names in nuclear power are the biggest supporters of electric cars.

There is another problem that no one talks about and that is distribution. Our current system is taxed to the limit on days of high energy use.

Imagine what would happen if, in addition to the air conditioners, TVs, washers, etc. everyone came home and plugged in their electric car. The system would fry like a crack heads brain. And where is all this additional infrastructure going to come from? Why the same people who built the power plants.

Electric cars are a market hoax brought to you by the same people that gave us three mile island.

[Earl Benser]

Hydrogen embrittlement....

.... this used to be a rather serious problem leading to storage tank
fractures and engine failures. I have never heard that any one has
solved the embrittlement problem. If not, Hydrogen is not going to
be a useful fuel.

[airbns]

Finally someone with a clue

When I first heard about hydrogen cars and fuel cells becoming the rage, I just laughed. You're right, hydrogen is a big problem.

[Mister C]

HE

Prevention or Remedial Action

1. Internal cracking or blistering

Use of steel with low levels of impurities (i.e. sulfur and phosphorus).

Modifying environment to reduce hydrogen charging.

Use of surface coatings and effective inhibitors.

2. Hydrogen embrittlement

Use of lower strength (hardness) or high resistance alloys.

Careful selection of materials of construction and plating systems.

Heat treatment to remove absorbed hydrogen.

3. High temperature hydrogen attack

Selection of material (for steels, use of low and high alloy Cr-Mo steels;

Selected Cu alloys; non-ferrous alloys).

Limit temperature and partial pressure H2.

http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/CPS/cps_a_hic.htm

[hewman1]

Biodiesel not clean!

Burning biodiesel contributes considerable greenhouse gas emissions. It is dirtier than hybrids and even efficient gas-only engines. The only 'no greenhouse' machines are battery-electric (GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 EV) and fuel cell (although making hydrogen generates more greenhouse gases than burning it will save.)

[Earl Benser]

Electric is also dirty.....

.... unless the power comes from nuclear, hydro, wind, or
geothermal power plants.

[mikeathome11]

Fuel Cell Catalyst Limitations?

I hope someone can confirm this, but I have heard that Fuel Cells
have a serious limitation. In order for a fuel cell to work, it requires
a catalyst, and the only catalyst that presently works is platnium. If
this is true, then there couldn't possibly be enough platnium in the
world to make enough fuel cells so that all of our cars wouldn't
need internal combustion engines.

[rafe01]

no... really there could...

... we're not talking a lot of platinum.

[airbns]

Honda Civic

Funny thing about this wonderful new Honda Civic hybrid and its 50 miles to the gallon: wasn't Honda making a Civic that got 50 miles to the gallon *before* hybrid technology came around? (yes) So what's the benefit? And aren't you creating a lot of environmental baggage with the batteries and pocket-book baggage with the extra cost for the hybrid, all for the same milage?

When I first started reading about Toyota and Honda developing hybrids, their prototypes being road tested were getting 80 and 90 miles to the gallon. I have a hard time believing that a vehicle that is street legal for road testing is going to lose that much milage when it goes into production. Something just doesn't seem right here...

[Yet Another Mark Johnson]

I want more MPG

What we need is PlugIn Hybrids!

<href="http://www.PlugInAlliance.com>www.PlugInAlliance.com

[alek_nedic]

PlugIn Hybrids

http://www.analogstereo.com/mercedes_c_class_owners_manual.htm

[bucks777]

How To Easily Increase Your gas Milage Today!

The gas pump right down the street just hit $3.59/Gallon and at this rate does not to be slowing down any time soon.

I have been checking into several different products that claim to get you better gas mileage and help improve emissions at the same time.(another subject on our clean air) and have found the results quite interesting.

There are approx. 4 or 5 floating around on the Internet right now that have all had some degree of Success.
All but one of these products are all made with a petroleum based product and considered an additive to your fuel mixture that helps boost the octane of the fuel.
Some of these products come in a pill form that you just drop into your tank as your filling up, but there have been several report's that they do not dissolve completely and have been known to clog your filter's etc,.

The other product that I found does everything (and more) for your vehicle. It is the Only One that is made from a mineral base and is 100% Environmentally Safe and Non Toxic.

The U.S. Military as we'll as several other Country's are now using this product on a wide scale for their vehicle's, Helicopters and even mixed with Jet Fuel.

This is also the only product with all patented rights that you can add into your crankcase(Oil) and it will clean and restore your Horsepower back to it's Original Condition.

They have been featured on several Major News Stations as they conducted 3rd party tests on Live T.V. as to how we'll this actually works when mixed with you fuel and oil.
If you would like to watch these clips, click here: http://mmgurl.com/efuel

Yes- in the future it's a given that we will all be using some sort of alternate fuels, but until then, maybe we should focus on "NOW". What can each and everyone of us do right now to get the Best Gas Mileage Possible and Help cut down Our Emissions Considerably?

This may not be the cure all to our problems, but "RIGHT NOW" this is the Best Alternative our current Technology has to offer. There is already Millions of Miles of documented evidence that proves this stuff works and will pay for itself and Save You Money.