Comments on: The payoff for plug-in hybrids: 95 years?

Plug-in hybrids get better mileage and pollute less than standard cars or regular hybrids--but they're also tough to justify economically.

[rambasek]

The below link is to research done by Dr. Frank, a PHEV expert at UC Davis - he calculates that electricity in California when plugged in at night only costs 75 cents/gallon of gas equivalent. That is a huge savings and much better than this article suggests.

And to calculate the repayment rate based on a 30,000 $ or so retrofit kit is ridiculous - in the real world when Toyota markets the PHEV Prius it can't cost that much more. A regular hybrid only costs 2-3 k more than a similar car. Going one step further can't add that much more.

If one uses 75 cents/gallon cost of electricity and a realistic 6k premium for PHEV and the current $4 /gallon gas the payoff will be very reasonable.

And then there is the cost of dead American soldiers and Iraqi citizens caught in the crossfire of our fight for oil - how do we factor the cost of that bloodshed into the above equation?

We need plug in hybrids - they are our best immediate answer for getting un-addicted to oil - and they will be cost effective when mass produced.


http://www.team-fate.net/wordpress/?page_id=11

[nelsontt]

It's a shame this author completely misses the point of hybrids. The problem we have is one of pollution and global warming, not saving money on gas. Break-even period? That's a specious argument.

When someone decides to spend an extra $5,000 in options on their new car, what's the break-even period for that? There isn't one. What's the pay-back period for heated leather seats? There isn't one, but people get leather seats anyway and nobody tells them how impractical they're being because the it'll take 2,000 years to break even on those leather seats.

If someone decides to buy a $30,000 Camry instead of a $10,000 Kia, what's the break-even period for the extra $20,000 they spent? There isn't one, and nobody ever even frames their decision in terms of break-even period. They spent the extra $20,000 because they wanted to and could and the features of the Camry appealed to them.

Likewise, with plug-ins, people are motivated more by other (and more powerful) factors such as reducing their carbon footprint, reducing dependence on Saudi oil, reducing pollution, doing something about global warming, etc.

Stop talking about a break-even period with hybrids, unless you're going to apply it equally to all the other things people spend lots of extra bucks on when they buy a car. The issue for most hybrid purchasers is not how much money you're going to save driving a hybrid, but rather what you're doing to help the environment.

We'll appear insanely stupid to our descendants if we ruin the planet because it wasn't "cost-effective" to do something about it.

[PhilisHybrid]

There is one simple problem with gasoline cars, you must always put gasoline in them and you have no choice about it.

This article has been written carefully in order to make one point, based on one assumption, "If the cars get driven for 40- to 50-mile trips". Well I don't drive 40 -50 mile trips. I drive 12 miles per day. If I never run out of electric power then I never use any gas!

Plug in hybrid cars vary in their gasoline usage based on how far you drive before the battery runs out. In all elecric mode, when the battery runs out then the gas engine takes over. Comparisons of plugin cars versus gasoline cars should be made on a scale of 10 mile, 20 mile, 30 mile 40 mile, per day with no recharging at the destination. So you see it begins to get a bit complex. That is why the main article has been written very carefully to present one case only and to point out the negatives of that one case. Plugin-hybrid users drive different distances. Some plug in at home and when they get to work. Some have solar power on the roof of their house. Some buy electricity from renewable energy suppliers. And who is to say the solar cell manufacturers aren't using renewable energy?

The difference here is choice. With a gasoline car you have no choice, you have to put gasoline in it, no matter how little you drive. You may never have to put gasoline in your plugin if you only drive a little.

[cb736]

The article fails to recognize that the benefit of a plug-in is only realized if the battery is big enough to cover your average commute.

Included in the bail-out bill passed by the Senate last night, HR1424, which goes back to the House now, is a $2,500 benefit for buying a plug-in hybrid with at least a 4 kWh battery, an amount that is increased by $417 per kWh up to $7,500 for cars (with a 12 kWh battery) and as much as $15,000 for large vehicles over 26,000 pounds (with a 30 kWh battery). It is essential to call your Representative today and ask that the bill be amended to change the minimum to $5,000 with at least an 8 kWh battery. Why? Because there is no benefit to America to have 250,000 vehicles running around with 4 kWh batteries. The EV1 used 0.168 kWh/mile and the Prius uses 0.26 kWh/mile, so with a 4 kWh battery your range is only 15 to 20 miles, and since the average commute is 29 miles it is only going to double your mileage, while if the minimum was an 8 kWh battery, your range would be 30 to 40 miles and anyone buying one would not need to buy any gas most of the year. Doubling a Prius mileage saves about 150 gallons a year, based on 15,000 miles a year, the same as going from 20 mpg to 25 mpg. Think about it, what effect does having 250,000 vehicles getting 25 mpg instead of 20 mpg out of a fleet of 100 million vehicles have on our dependence on oil? Nada - nothing. That's only a quarter percent of our fleet. Now on the other hand if you could take a quarter percent of our vehicles off gasoline completely, now that is worth it. In 50 years there will be no oil left, only ethanol and biodiesel, and only enough of those for 10% of our fleet, meaning that the remaining 90% will need to be electric. A 4 kWh battery is a useless teaser. An 8 kWh battery is actually useful, so I hope you will all call your Reps today and ask that the bill be amended to substitute $5,000 and 8 kWh instead of $2,500 and 4 kWh.

[EliasShedd]

"A plug-in costs a driver $1,168 to operate for 12,000 miles (with gas at $3 a gallon plus electricity at 8 cents a kilowatt hour) while a regular Prius costs $1,010 for the same distance"

Looks like the $1,168 and the $1,010 were switched. (Typo)