Comments on: Chasing the Toyota Prius' 50 mpg nirvana

CNET News' Martin LaMonica, an early buyer of the 2010 Toyota Prius, finds that the car gets good mileage but there's clearly more to learn.

[gerbercon]

Has anyone looked into comparing buying a $22,000 Prius vs.a $12,000 Yaris+$10,000 worth of solar panels?

[owlafaye]

Yes, I looked into it and you are absolutely correct. It makes perfect sense. I can use that extra $10,000 most effectively...thanks for the direction.

[wfolta]

Hey, what a great idea! Even better, get a $300 bicycle and spend the $21,700 you save on solar panels AND a windmill! The Yaris is not the same size as a Prius, and even with it's cramped little frame doesn't manage to get close to the mileage of a Prius.

[wfolta]

I really don't see how you don't achieve 50 MPG. I drive in a mixture of some Interstate at 65-70 MPH, some Interstate backups (15 MPH max), and lots of city driving and get 55 MPG. You need to drive assertively (not babying the car), but smoothly and be on the lookout for chances to coast with the accelerator slightly depressed (to eliminate the bar completely on the main display).

The idiots who don't understand hybrids are just making fools of themselves. I get 55 MPG, so I spend less than half what I used to on gasoline. The car has two electric motors in addition to the engine, which might seem more complicated, but with computer control it means that all three major components work more efficiently and experience less stress as well. It also eliminates the transmission -- most complicated mechanical component in a car -- and the starter, and results in about 80% less wear-n-tear on the brakes as well.

It's way beyond saving a little gas.

[westrajc]

The current generation of hybrids vehicles, including the 2010 Prius are far more hype than help for either the environment or the car industry. I would like to see a reputable organization do a complete side-by-side comparison between a Toyota 2010 Prius or similar type vehicle and the latest generation of German Turbo Diesel automobiles/powerplants.

The comparison should cover:

> Total energy required for manufacturing
> Total energy required to produce suitable fuel
> Total amount of green-house gas produced by production/generation of required fuel(s)
> Total green-house gas produced by operation of vehicle
> Timetable required to retool US automakers, for production of this type of vehicle in sufficient quantities to meet 50% of the demand for higher mileage vehicles in the next 1-5 years.
> Feasibility of using turbo-diesel power plants in retrofit applications. For example: a(2002 Turbo-diesel Ford Explorer.
> Amount of energy required to recycle the vehicle at its end of life.
> Amount of hazardous waste produced by the vehicle as a by-product of its lifecycle

Last but not least, adding up all of these factors, I would like to see a Total Cost of Ownership, Total US Industry Benefit and Total Environmental Impact number generated for both technologies.

Here is what I think you will see. Switching to Turbo-diesel technology, with an emphasis on low-carbon bio diesel fuel is the BEST short (1-5 year) solution to our energy dependency, automobile manufacturing revitalization, and environmental challenges. Those who continue to fawn over the Prius are making their decisions without the benefit of all of the data necessary to make an informed decision and are doing so largely because of the "Cool Factor."

[grouchyoldman]

We bought a 2006 Prius in April of 2006; we liked it so much that we bought a second in June of 2006. We generally average 52-54 mpg in cooler weather, though that drops several mpg during our very hot summer months (105 - 115 degrees F) here in Tucson. We have only had one significant repair (on just one of the two), which was covered under warranty. We get our best mileage around town, where the speed limits are 45 mph or less, and our worst mileage on freeways (43-45mpg at 75 mph).The very best mileage is achieved using "pulse & glide" technique, which you can look up on the Internet; but it may make you the "public enemy #1" of some of your fellow drivers. Strangely, the mileage on both cars went down somewhat after they reached about 25,000 miles - neither my dealership, nor Toyota can explain it. I will probably replace at least one of the two Prii (which is plural for Prius, if I remember my latin) as soon as they offer the Litium Ion batteries and a Plug-In Hybrid (it was supposed to be available on the 2010, but they had problems with the Li batteries - they must have planned to buy them from Dell). My personal observation is that our cars REALLY like going 39 mph and dislike hills, which we have a lot of where we live. You should be able to get about 10-20% better results with your 2010 than I can get with my 2006s. Very cold and very hot weather both decrease mileage, as does increased Ethanol content in the fuel and longer lasting tires (stick to the factory standard, I put Pirellis on one car and immediately lost 4 mpg). Do NOT use high octane fuel, as it actually can damage the engine and do not trust the calculated mpg on the display.

[owlafaye]

Well, time to drag out my old brag,.......I AVERAGE 50 mpg in my car. It is 20 years old, a 4 door hatchback, weighs 1565 lbs, is easy to work on and parts are cheap cheap. Tires last forever. Yup, its a 1989 Geo Metro 3 cylinder, 5 speed manual. 53.4 mpg on the freeway....Suzuki had it nailed many a year ago...what did GM do? They "upgraded" it to a 4 cylinder, made it heavier and cheaper and ruined the whole concept. Then they outright stole the design from Suzuki and called it a "re-design" or some such. GEO METROs folks, mine cost me $300 and I spent $875 bringing it back up to good running, safe condition. Then I bought three more for $250 each average, parked them in the back lot and use one for a parts car and am re-building the best of the other two.

[owlafaye]

I am the Geo Metro owner...I just did the calculations on a brand new Yari exactly like my Geo Metro. I was entertaining a new VW Jetta diesel, however I found that in 5 years the Yari was $8885 cheaper than the VW diesel. Purchase price and gas/diesel usage at 12,000 miles per year. $2.50 gas/$2.80 diesel...The Yari gets 35 mpg and the VW aprox. 53 mpg. rough calculations yes, yet any serious error would still lead to huge savings buying the Yari. I will spend a few months pondering this one...laughter

[SenorFrog]

As someone already wrote, Toyota's system for disposal/recycling the batteries is safe and NOT a problem for the environment. This Cain (Diesel) vs Abel (Hybrid) battle is stupid. Two related camps that care about fuel economy consistently bash each other over the head. Both diesel and hybrids are a stepping stone to plug-ins. Telsa Motors has proven that you can cater to both the speed demons and the gas misers. Diesels will still be used for people that need the hauling power. Hybrids will be the vehicle for driving cross country to go to grandmother's house, and that plugin will be a city car (or if it's a Tesla, dad's attempt to pick up a 20 year old during his midlife crisis).

[gybognarjr]

I drove the 2009 Prius in town (Los Angeles) and in a week, over 400 miles I got 52 mpg, but I was driving for mileage and watched the computer and after 40+ years experience, I can stretch the gas. By the way, I got 32.6 mpg with a Nissan Altima 2.5S on the same distance and driving mix a week ago. No passengers, only the driver in both cars.
Question!? If everybody would drive plug in electric cars from tomorrow, who would pay for the road repairs and construction? What would the states do, since they would loose a lot more taxes for lack of gasoline sales and tax only on electricity? would everybody loose their jobs in Oklahoma, Texas and Alaska, for low oil production? What would happen to the gas stations, tanker trucks, refineries and pipelines? If we are so smart, why don't we think about it now, before the crisis is here?

[monkeyfun14]

A group of people losing their jobs is better then everyone losing their lives when it becomes unlivable here.

[scottyrob]

If you want an inexpensive, environmentally friendly car, get a Jetta diesel. A prius, believe it or not, in the long term, is as environmentally harmful as a medium size SUV. The area where the batteries are built suffer from terrible acid and how do you dispose of the batteries properly? I'm not a fan of hybrids. Due to the added cost, added wait, inefficiency and range of batteries, and lack of joy in driving. Give me a EU spec BMW 120D or 320D so I can fuel economy and fun at the same time. Heck a 730D can get around 35 mpg.

[vaivaiprala]

just watch in youtube the top gear show about; Prius More Enviromentally Damaging Than BMW M3. And please keep way from the FAST lane owners of turtle cars.

[datamuncher]

Yeah, you should believe everything you see on youtube.

The Prius may be a bit gimmicky and but it's the most convenient, comfortable, utilitarian 46+MPG car you can find. Everything works well, including the GPS, bluetooth hands free, etc. Better than my former Mercedes and Bimmer.

[greytguy1]

Read all the comments, twice. Daughter's mother-in-law bought a Honda hybrid. She and her husband love it. Good for them. Their choice. I've been following the specs on the prius for several years. Very much in favor of the lines, especially the front; Even more so with the ever-increasing interior size, and, of course the gas/electric mileage.
my mind's made up - the Prius! We've been driving a 2001 PT Cruiser since it was brans new. It's gas mileage in a word: HORRIBLE! If we are extremely lucky, maybe 20 mpg. Argh!

Now, if only i can save up the money, and my wife selects the color...

[bwilson4web]

We paid just over $24,000 for our 2010 Prius, tax, tags, and everything. It replaced an aging 2001 Echo we sold to a co-worker who is now getting better than 32 MPG versus the 24 MPG he was getting with his pickup truck. The Echo automatic transmission works great for his wife and it is new enough to have air-bags. Unlike the pickup, the Echo has seats for the whole family including the kids, lacking with the pickup.

For us, my wife's new 2010 Prius has more space and better handling than the Echo. In the meanwhile, I continue to commute in my 2003 Prius getting better than 52 MPG after 70,000 miles. So we are now a two Prius family and quite happy, even smug about it. Like the busy ant who stored away food for the winter, we don't care too much about the price of gasoline.

Now most of our driving is in town and the suburbs so we have no interest in a highway-only vehicle. Also, we don't have kids so we don't need a land yacht. We like quality, 'quiet' and comfort and don't need the VW advertised "vroom vroom." As for oversized loads, I have a trailer for my 2003 Prius and used just this last week to pickup a motorized wheel chair.

Now I understand some folks make up fictional disposal and construction costs. But I've throughly looked at my invoice and there is no special "construction" or "disposal" cost element. These are pure fictions because they never seem to show up in the purchase price. Furthermore, Ebay shows an active market in salvage Prius parts. The batteries are easy to recycle and Toyota offers a $200 payment for used ones.

Best of all, I get a 10% discount on my Prius insurance. It turns out the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports the insurance costs and the Prius is the second lowest in its class of vehicle. Saving on insurance again saves money.

So for those who like older, noisier, smaller, less efficient, manual transmission vehicles, I'm glad you like them. The "Dashboard" report indicates there is a 10 day supply of 2010 Prius on the lots, which means everyone is pretty much sold as it arrives at the dealership. The Prius supply matches the demand and that is perfect.

So what it comes down to is all of this anti-hybrid noise does not impact Prius sales, which are still supply limited. It does mean those gullible enough to believe that nonsense are getting exactly what they deserve. No one ever said life is fair. For us, we've made our choice and are very happy with it.

Bob Wilson

ps. Last summer when gas was $4/gal., we still had spare change to send to our successful candidates running for office. In contrast, our less efficient co-workers were a little 'cash strapped' ... a good thing.

[cwerdna]

I bet these claims "environmental damage" from Prius batteries is all coming from people who believe the thoroughly debunked CNW junk "science" (Hummer is greener than a Prius, Tahoe is greener than a Prius, etc.) w/full of numbers that are pure fiction and that refuses to die along w/shows that have virtually no factual content such as Top Gear. If the above were true, where are the press releases from GM?

The Prius' NiMH batteries are fully recyclable and Toyota has $150 bounty on them. The claim about the nickel mine at Sudbury was retracted. See http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html.

The pack is 117 lbs (http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-battery-pack) and has 32 pounds of nickel in it. You read what http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp has to say about the batteries and the junk science.

Examples of others who have questioned and debunked the junk "science":
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_versus_prius.html
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf
http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth
http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/september/hummervprius.html - finally Toyota responded

For those who suggest VW Jetta TDIs, have fun w/poor VW reliability and go look at how poorly the so called "clean diesel" 2009 Jetta TDIs do at http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/. Select Look Up, check both checkboxes and select 2009, California. Sort by air pollution score. They get a 6/10 which puts them in the bottom 10%. Go to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm and lookup a non-"clean diesel" version of the Jetta TDI such as a 2006. It gets a horrible 1/10 in terms of the EPA pollution score (Tier 2 Bin 10) and was unavailable in California and other CARB states. BTW, these pollution numbers have nothing to do w/greenhouse gas emissions either of which the it's inferior to the Prius (

The UK guy citing his 50 mpg Renault is most likely using (larger) UK gallons. 50 miles in UK gallons = 41.63 miles per US gallons. I bet that Renault wouldn't meet US emissions requirements.

For those llke Top Gear who make a big deal about shipping nickel and batteries, I suggest you look at http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com/ngcblogs/inside-ngc/2008/04/human-footprint---our-driving-imprint.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdhpdqCQAA regarding a Ford Crown Vic, for example.

I've gone through debunking CNW's junk many times but here's another http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/64178-prius-not-green-car-3.html#post888439 about their pure fiction.

[RichSC]

I have just over two weeks on my 2010; I put it in ECO mode and leave it there for all my driving and haven't been troubled with acceleration. Average mileage around town was 50 for the first 350 miles, 52 for the next 400. Interestingly the average speed is 26 pretty consistently, which tells you how much time we spend on even a short commute here in DC.

[raechris]

Hi,
As an environmentalist, I wonder why you did not choose the Jetta TDI Sportwagen? It offers the manual, more space than the Prius, and does not have the problem of a superfund site under the rear seats when the car is totalled by the next teenager. Add to that the nickel mine that Toyota uses to create the Prius batteries, which has polluted the surrounding environment to such an extreme degree that NASA uses it as a lunar testing ground. Add to that, clean diesel is cheaper than unleaded regular and spirited (not old man driving techniques) drivng returns in the low to mid 40s mpg. Imagine the mileage if you did drive like an old man. In fact, it (Jetta TDI) won an mpg battle against the prius recently.

[doneeee]

Hi raechris,

As I was actually around when men landed on the moon, I know that happened in 1969, and the NASA man-on-the-moon program was over by the end of the 70's.

As the first Prius was sold in Japan in 1997, about 20 years after the NASA moon program, it seems to me to be disingueous to bring up the Sudbury nickel mine as a reason not to participate in Hybrid car advantages. So much so, that the original London Tabloid that made this connection has retracted the article a few years ago. Yet, such lies develop a life of their own on the Internet, and your comment is just one more parrot. Indeed, long before Toyota bought Nickel from this mine, it was winning enviormental awards for reclaiming of the 1970's moonscapes it created.

Indeed, what did all the nickel mined in Sudbury before the Prius get used for? Nickel main usage is as an anti-corroision alloy for steel. Ever wonder why your exhaust system in your car now lasts 10 years, but back in the 60's only 3? Nickel. Ever wonder why you do not get tetanous eating off steel knives and forks? Nickel. Ever wonder why restraunt kitchen are not great sources germs? Nickel used in the stainless steel tables, diswashers and utensils. Ever wonder why more jet engines do not self-destruct even though the planes fly through all sorts of weather? Nickel in the turbine blades. Hey, a TDI has a Tubine right? I wonder if its full of Nickel from from Sudbury? I do know it takes allot more energy to machine a diesel engine block than an aluminum Prius engine block.

What about all the lead in the starter batteries a TDI is going to go through? Its a much bigger hazard than a metal we eat our food off of (Nickel) , and three such TDI starter batteries have more metal mass than a Prius traction battery.

[cwerdna]

The claims of the site you mentioned above (Sudbury) all happened well BEFORE the Prius. The story's been retracted: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html. I also cited http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/mrgreen_mailbag.asp in my earlier post.

Diesel is not cheaper than unleaded, at least not all year. I see that it's currently cheaper in summer around here but definitely not during most other times of the uear. See http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/diesel_faqs.asp "On-highway diesel fuel prices have been higher than regular gasoline prices almost continuously since September 2004, a break from the historical pattern of diesel fuel prices usually being lower than gasoline prices except in cold winters when demand for heating oil pushed diesel fuel prices higher." During the height of gas prices in California, it was more than super unleaded See http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/CAmetro.asp.

As for VWs, to quote my earlier post:
"For those who suggest VW Jetta TDIs, have fun w/poor VW reliability and go look at how poorly the so called "clean diesel" 2009 Jetta TDIs do at http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/. Select Look Up, check both checkboxes and select 2009, California. Sort by air pollution score. They get a 6/10 which puts them in the bottom 10%. Go to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm and lookup a non-"clean diesel" version of the Jetta TDI such as a 2006. It gets a horrible 1/10 in terms of the EPA pollution score (Tier 2 Bin 10) and was unavailable in California and other CARB states. BTW, these pollution numbers have nothing to do w/greenhouse gas emissions either of which the it's inferior to the Prius"

[usbseawolf2000]

Jetta TDI Sportwagon cost $2,000 more and when will the premium pay for itself? That's the kind of argument people like to make against Prius vs. Corolla for example.

Clean Diesel is still dirtier than Jetta gasoline in smog emission. If you are truly an environmentalist, have you driven the 2010 Prius?

[eeee]

truckdrvr said it best. I had a Chevy Sprint as a car in 1982 and yes it had 3 cylinders and was basic transportation with an Automatic and AC and saved a ton in gas since it averaged over 45 mpg all the time in driving. NO reason we cant have something like that in the mix of cars we Americans can buy but what is it no longer offered. Because not enough people bought one.
Rather, many of us respond to the cutesy Prius and Insight advertising, hippie commune images of ever happy people driving their flower fuming hybrids and we plunk down $22,000 to $30,000 for one
Great !!! (that is sarcasm in case you dont see it )

[gcell]

I have never driven a Prius. I live in an area of coastal roads, and driving behind a Prius is a challenge. I thought this may have something to do with the driver responding to the eco-indicator. Sometimes concentrating on a display in your car may not be the safest way to drive.

We've got a 2007 Prius and average 48-51 mpg on every tank, highway or city. Our worst tank in 35,000 miles was 46 and our best was 57. One thing that boosted the miles for us, besides the tricks noted by the other high mileage drivers, was adding a KLN lifetime air filter. We've put their air filters into all our cars, hybrid or not, and it has always boosted both mileage and power.

As for the battery issue, here in California, we have hybrid battery recycling programs. (Since SoCal is the biggest consumer of hybrid cars, it also has the biggest need for battery recycling.) We also looked into diesel cars, but diesel here can be more expensive than gas, and our apartment didn't have the space to filter vegetable oil and make our own fuel. We just bought a house, so now we're waiting for the Tesla electric sedan; we'll be able to fuel our car from the solar panels on the garage.and lose the cost of fuel all together.

[usbseawolf2000]

Jetta TDI is ideal if you never need to brake or stop at the red light. Geo Metro is ideal if you never get into accident. Both of these cars get somewhat better MPG if you are willing to be part of the transmission; human manual labor.

Prius is ideal for all the real-world needs and still provide more room, better MPG and cleaner emission.

Those making a big deal of Nickel, I guess you don't use the 5 cent US coin. Your current car also has hundreds of pound of Nickel in the steel (6% Nickel).

[kevinskrause]

Human manual labor? I'd hate for you to have to break from your BigMac and super-sized Coke to make an upshift. We purists thrive on every opportunity to spin that flywheel. I am not part of the transmission, the transmission is a part of Me.