Comments on: Can you 'superinsulate' that home, please?

With the hopes of dramatically cutting energy use, a family embarks on an outsized project to put a foam blanket around their 80-year-old house.

[LazloToth]

We have been doing this in Maine for over 20 years. Not everyone, but enough to be noticeable.
And it does not cost $100K.

Nonetheless, it is good to see that Massachusetts is catching up ;^)

Merry Christmas.

[squished]

Can you cite any specific projects? What was the outcome? How much does it "really" cost? You've shared pretty much nothing in this flippant comment except perhaps a propensity to gloat. I've a hard time believing someone as obsessed about energy conservation as this Alex Cheimets would somehow overlook the prior innovations made in other parts of the country. And if so, at least he's getting his story out so others can learn from his experience.

[afterhours]

We built an addition in 2000 that doubled the sq footage f our home here in NC, with zoned heat pumps. Used 2x6 exterior walls, clad with OSB, 3/4" blueboard, hardiplank and very zealous sealing. The ancient building codes here call for only R13 walls, but we nearly doubled that and the cost only went 4% over what the 'to code' costs would have run. In the summer and the winter, the heatpump runs 1/4 as often. Sure, some of that is differences in the age / brand of heatpump, but from the lack of sound penetration (jet noise, in a glidepath for a major airport) compared to the original half of the house, those walls are a big part of our comfort. They've easily already paid for themselves, The entire house has R30 attic insulation and fully insulated crawlspaces. Yankees worry about their heat bills. Down here, we have cooling bills that run just as high as our winter bills. Superinsulating pays you back both seasons.

[LazloToth]

Well, Squished, you can check out the EEBA (www.eeba.org) They have been around for a long time and have been doing this sort of thing since the late 70's.
I personally have done several homes that are at least R-40 and now live in a house that is R-65 walls and roof(all foam).
It uses about 250 gallons of oil for heat and hot water on the coast of Maine.

There are many projects all over the country that have been doing this for many years.
I was not dissing the project as much as questioning the media that regularly "Discovers" something wonderful that has been going on for decades, while everyone has basked in the glow of cheap oil.

As a matter of fact, the first superinsulated housethat was publicized was the Leger house in Mass., back in the late 70's or early '80's.
This Old House has been doing stress skin panels in many of their new construction projects for years. This is a cost effective way to do superinsulated new construction affordably. (Although TOH usually stops short of superinsulation).

Building Science is a great resource, but there are many others also.

I can tell you from experience, that adding four inches of polyisocyanurate foam insulation ($1.60 per square foot for 4 inch) still leaves a lot of room for everything else and you will still be well under $100K, even with Massachusetts labor costs.

[squished]

That's a much better and constructive response LazloToth. Thanks for elaborating.

[NocturnalCT]

Stories like this would be a lot more interesting if they took a look at the economic viability of these types of projects. $100K to super insulate your house? How much energy savings is he expecting? Including interest and inflation estimates how long would it take before the investment is earned back?

To make it *really* interesting we could look at how much carbon and other greenhouse gasses are emitted during the production of the foam and double pane glass and compare that against the carbon savings based on using less oil and electricity. Of course it's hard to find out but the question should be acknowledged. Lacking this information the aforementioned economic comparison (using dollars) will get you close.

I'm glad the dangers of sealing houses have been addressed. Of course it's preferable to have ventilation 'at will' over ventilation due to having a leaky house. That way you can close up the house at night when it's colder and ventilate during the day when it's warmer.

[William Crow]

Knowing the amount of carbon/energy used to manufacture the insulation used might be interesting. One could consider an overall "manufacture to final usage" energy savings over time.
But if having this information is for figuring the total burden on the planet in regard to global warming the amount of carbon dioxide and methane emitted by the installers would be required, plus, the amount of carbon dioxide emitted and methane emitted by people as they read this and similar articles. Afterall, we're after "total impact" on the environment aren't we?
There's an excellent movie that addresses this, "Other People's Lives."

[Manhattan2]

Check out SolarTransfer and Carbon Content solutions. We call this GHG facts and we intend to do exactly that. Track all these "Green" solutions for their true cost. Financially, Natural Resources needed, and GHG emissions to produce and continue to use all these Green solutions coming on to the market.

Everything needs to be considered when selecting the best method to go Green. Sometimes the choice may be to do nothing?

[ittesi259]

Manhattan2 will you someday actually say something about what you troll to promote other than telling us its the wave of the future? The website you used to link all the time only is webpage spouting what you have already said with no information other than it makes PV panels look sad...well tell me how it works, where I can get it, how much it costs, and how its gonna help me.

[dargon19888]

The 100K isn't just for the insulated panels but also for the retrofit windows. That's really where you see a lot of your money being spent.

They thought about a geothermal pump. That would kill anyone's budget.

I think what makes this project interesting is that they are doing a complete retrofit. Not an addition or a new home. So you can't start from scratch or build the house in to the earth and use it as a heat sink.

The biggest concern would be air quality in these types of homes. That's where the fun stuff begins. ;-)

[MadLyb]

"He said experts at the state and at Building Science Corp. told him that air quality and moisture should not be a concern given that enough air manages to get indoors."

That's a pretty unscientific and vague response.

So, go off an seal your house up hard and watch it rot from the inside out, while you expose your family to mold and mildew. Houses have to breath, especially for those of us in high humidity areas like the Southeast. Get obsessed about one factor of environmental management and another will rise up to bite you. If you have any doubt, research the inappropriate use of EIFS.

[BenFlavoredCandy]

I know the language used in that quotation is indeed unscientific and vague, but my guess is that it is just dumbed down to avoid explaining terminology. Architects use a term called "air changes" to describe how tight a house is. Between 0.75 and 1.25 air changes per hour is a target value. Anything around 0.5 you will feel stuffy. However, you can make a tight house and put in ventilation, as this project does with the air-to-air heat exchangers.

Also, I would like to agree with the many other comments about how long superinsulation has been around. Long enough that I took courses on it as part of my masters degree.

[dargon19888]

Air quality would be a major concern. This is why the monitoring of the air quality would have a major impact on future projects.

They are adding an additional air exchanger to help with this issue. Of course this will increase the amount of energy required to run the house.

I'm interested in that they didn't look to using aerogel as an insulator. Much thinner, more efficient and also mold resistant. It would mean gutting the inside of the house's walls rather than removing the siding and adding the insulation and residing the house. Again, this is a retrofit and not a gut of the house so I guess certain options were not considered.

This is funny. I suppose what you can superinsulation is pretty normal insulation in Finland.

All the houses have triple glazed windows lined with urethane foam or other such materials. There houses are surrounded by styrofoam insulation to kep the piper from freezing around the house and rest on a bed of sand so that the foundations do not move when the ground freezes and thaws. The walls tend to be thicker and have multiple layers of insulator material (some to insulate others to keep the wind out and the moisture etc...) which look similar to what this guy is using. There is also usually a space between the roof and the ceiling in the house that is blown full of rock wool.

However there is quite a lot of knowledge to properly insulating a house, so he should ask professional builders from Canada or Finland. I am pretty sure he is not doing anything that they have not done before.

Insulation of houses tends to be pretty abysmal in a lot of countries. Britain (especially bad) and France are bad examples. But my sister who lives in Hong Kong at the moment (and before that in China) also said that she was freezing in the winter time. Even though it really was not that cold.

[volterwd]

I was in WuXi (between NanJing and ShangHai) and there was no insulation. The buildings were concrete. It was 10 C and I was cold all the time (I'm Canadian). The reason is that nothing is insulated (or heated in that area) so i'ts ALWAYS 10 even inside. And their room units suck.

[acheimets]

One of the homeowners here to answer some of your questions:

$100K includes the non-super insulating costs of ripping off the siding and re-siding and ripping off the roofing and re-roofing, which is nearly 1/2 the project cost. The state of Massachusetts hopes that this type of work can be done in phases and be partly self-financed by the home's infrequent major maintenance.

On a strict return on investment, the project competes favorably with numbers I've seen for PV solar. This means if you are only swayed by numbers, but lack any other motivation (such as energy independence, garage gear head, environment, take this oil and stick it, etc, etc) this project does not yet make sense based on current energy costs.

This is a 2-family house with 3000 square feet in total. I cannot compare the costs in other regions of the country but this price in the Boston area is more than fair.

I'm not aware of any super-insulation "retrofit" projects going on in Maine, though that doesn't mean there aren't any. (If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it.........). I am aware of one other completed retrofit by BSC in Mass., and two other retrofits by Mass. homeowners now under construction. The earlier BSC project was 3X more expensive for a smaller one family, so some progress is being made on the cost side.

There was a wave of such projects (perhaps a few hundred across USA and Canada) 30 years ago but the wave crested with cheap fuel.

Whatever retrofit projects going on in obscurity across our frigid northern border, I think that this project is different in that its goals are larger than the simple benefits accruing to this 2-family house. The materials, the costs, the methods and the results will be known, analyzed and used by the State of Massachusetts and NStar (the regional utility) and others. It is my hope that building codes and incentives change to make these projects easier for others who follow us.

There are fossil fuels all over this project. In the blown foam, rigid foam, in the siding, in the roofing, and in the transportation of materials and contractors. The project was analyzed on an economic basis only (at $4/gallon for home heating oil), but I am aware that a high level of "rationalization" is required to move forward on this project as there is in just waking up in this country and turning on the coffee maker. I have thoughts on this subject, but that's for another time. In the end, it was decided that it would be better for all the stake holders if this project were completed. Had we specified a thatched roof, or any number of other lower-carbon choices, this project would not even have started.

[LazloToth]

I suppose that one might also say, "As goes Maine, so goes the nation!" instead of referring to anything outside of Massachusetts as being obscure.

Glad you are doing the project, but there is more going on than BSC and projects in Massachusetts.
As I mentioned, one of the early demonstration projects was the Leger House, which coincidentally was also in Mass.

Europe might be ahead of us, but we are closing the gap. The simple concept of covering the entire thermal envelope on the exterior is relatively easy, cost effective (even in Massachusetts dollars!?!) and a worthy project that is more logical than investing in PV's. The issue is photovoltaics are sexy and "green", while insulating to R-60 is pretty mundane and does not seem high tech enough to the masses who expect some quick technological fix, like replacing a light bulb.

One bone to pick, why are the windows and doors recessed? This is harder to seal and keep weather out of, instead of installing all these new doors and windows out to the edge of the foamed exterior walls.
This would also create some nice deep window areas on the inside.

[acheimets]

In response to LasloToth

No offense intended. I was not referring to Maine. I was referring to any DIY super-insulation project anywhere in the colder regions bordering Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific which has not received media attention.
If I could repeat what was said earlier, I'm interested to hear the other examples you mention in Maine, and the information could be of interest to the Mass Dept of Energy Resources.

Wiindows and Doors are recessed with a bullet-proof flashing system. (See project blog at for flashing details at http://superinsulating.blogspot.com/2008/11/d-walls-day-to-day-blog.html). I'm sure one of the more important reasons is the cost of "finishing" out the interior........ if there is another reason, I am not aware of it. That said, the recessed windows look great, though they didn't sound like they were going to look great before I saw one.

At the risk of preaching to the choir, conservation is rarely sexy, but the success of every alt-energy technology you've ever heard of is based upon aggressive conservation.

Some aspects of this project are more "Cost effective" than others. Running around with a caulking gun probably beats everything, but this doesn't reach the projects goals. Cost effectiveness is a difficult tool to use when energy costs are not burdened with the actual costs of energy use, for example a carbon tax that actually reflected environmental costs.

[acheimets]

In answer to Madlyb: "He said experts at the state and at Building Science Corp. told him that air quality and moisture should not be a concern given that enough air manages to get indoors."

Indoor air quality will be protected by the 2 Fantech heat recovery ventilators which will run at 100 CFM.

Wall condensation is avoided by the thickness of the outer insulation and its function as a vapor barrier. The inner wall of insulation in direct contact with the home's sheathing will be so warm (because of the thickness of the rigid insulation) that the vapor will not condense in the wall..............or at least that's the theory that we are hanging our hat on.

In answer to the Finland, Canada comment. Add in Germany and a bunch of other European countries. Is the United States late to the efficiency party? No answer is necessary.
BSC and the Mass. Dept of Energy Resources are well aware of the work done overseas but the fact is that this is a retrofit of an 80 year old home in Massachusetts and there is nothing like local experience.

[MickATL]

This sounds really cool. Not sure how effective it would be in Atlanta, GA. I have been working to fix the drafts under and around my doors and next I am going to insulate between the floor joists for my first floor.

I have been reading up on insulating and how to get the most out of the heat I am putting into the house. Today, it's about 31 outside. Not sure if a single 2" layer of insulation would be effective for this year.

Also, anyone know the real ROI of replacing single pane windows with double pane? Same question with insulating cinderblock walls?

[dargon19888]

I have a small farm house in SC. To answer your questions...

If your house isn't insulated, then the ROI on double paned windows isn't going to be there. So you have to also insulate your house.

If you're house is raised off the ground, you could add insulation in the form of foam panels and glue them to your sub flooring. (Just make sure you're not interfering with any access to pipes or electrical wires. I'm not sure on GA code but I think you can use ROMEX. In Chicago we have to have all wiring in conduit while ROMEX is ok in SC.

With respect to your walls, I'm going to assume that you have wood studs and drywall inside of your cinder blocks. There you can put up some batting in between the studs. (This would mean ripping out the internal drywall.) I'm sure that there are some other types of insulation available. If you have brick then cinder block then studs and drywall, you probably don't need to insulate. (Talk with a local contractor.) In GA you don't have bad winters and If you insulate your floors, roof/attic, and then replace the windows, you may be ok.

[greentalk]

I can't really tell from the pictures but is the outside insulation covering up where two wood members meet? I think they are called headers, band, joists? The reason why I ask is I have a stairwell where there is a header (facing the exterior of the house) and it is cold. My house has spray foam and it was explained to me that you can't spray were two pieces of wood meet. This exterior insulation, if taped properly, would seem to take care of this problem?

[acheimets]

A problem with insulating the wall cavity is that 25% of the house made up of the structural framing remains un-insulated. (in addition to another 25% of the home which is window).
You can normally see this problem when there's a light snow. If the roof is insulated, you can see the snow melt lines where the rafters are underneath. Rigid foam on the exterior is a thermal break for heat transmission through the home's wooden structural elements. If I understand your question correctly, there is no "cavity" to fill at that location, so no place to fit the foam.

[HeavyJim]

When people quit insisting they "need" these oversize homes, most of which have to have 2 incomes to afford anyway, more money will be saved in heating/cooling cost, materials used, and damage to the environment.

[BenFlavoredCandy]

This is not an "oversized" home. In fact the picture shows that it is a multi-family home [as the term 'co-owners' suggests]. But I do agree.

[rapier1]

Its an 80 year old home. Hardly the prime building period for McMansions.

[LinuxRules]

I wanted to do something like this 15 years ago when I bought my 100 year old home, but I tried to get a Home Efficiency Mortgage, the banks in Erie PA just laughed at me. The banks claimed insulation does not add 'value' to the home. Needless to say I could not afford two loans, so never got insulation. Has any one ever tried to get one of these mortgages?

[LinuxRules]

This is Energy Efficiency Home Mortgage.

[Spanwite]

All the needed knowledge is out there, just not many are interested in to conserve Energy.
No Government in the past did "waste" time on this issue.
The Terms are the more Energy you use the more cheaper it gets.
At the beginning of the current Government they gave big tax breaks ($100000 or more) to company's when the buy huge SUV's.
That mean supporting wasting energy, showing the Detroit3 to continue building those Dinosaur! Same in the Building construction, as cheap as possible, energy is cheap. Dinosaur in every aspect.
Don't conserve Oil, get more, even a war is needed.

Don't look at other Country's, what others do is not the way America want.
Get more OIL whatever it cost! Drill on every Cost America has.
America is light years behind.

[sanenazok]

My house's heating bill is $400 a month, for five months a year. It's two apartments in an old house. Let's say superinsulation costs $200K and saves half of my heating bill (unlikely). So it would take TWO hundred years to get any return on investment! This is a pilot program for begging for government funding, which is the only way to make this feasible. Even if the taxpayers pay for 1/2 the costs, the ROI is still 100 years, oh and that presumes that taxes won't go up in light of this spending, which they will.

[LazloToth]

It shouldn't cost $200K for a two unit building.
And superinsulation WILL halve your heating cost.

I suppose you will be content to continue as you are presently operating.

The concept is very valid. The costs are too high. The costs could easily be half that if not less, if you are a savvy consumer.

[sanenazok]

So let's say it costs 100K (I guess I am a very, very savvy as you suggest). So if I'm saving $200 a month then that means the break even point is 500 months of heating. Let's say global warming does quite pan out and I have to heat six months a year. That's 83 years for a return on investment.

Insulation is a fine concept as are most of the green technologies. The problem is that most ain't feasible, just like this. When you have $100K to blow on this, go ahead! I won't be around in 83 years it would take to recoup the money, which of course presumes that the insulation won't need any maintenance, which of course it will need complete replacement in 20-30 years.

[inachu]

It has beeen noted already that those that do super insulate their home then they also must now buy multiple detectors. Radon,Carbon monoxide. when a home is air tight then the elements do build up. The home will have to be aired out more often.

[cp256]

I priced up PV to cover my average electric usage, $250 per month (small business included) and it came out to $130K. It would take 40 years or so to recoup that. I was given a rough estimate for a wind turbine that would allow me to sell some power back to the utility and that was only $100K. Of course I don't think my neighbors (I live in an upscale city neighborhood) would appreciate a wind turbine tower in the backyard. Add to the initial costs the tax assessment increases and PV and wind are losers for me. I have made great gains in greening through insulating, replacing the furnace, zoning and reducing electric power consumption with more efficient computer servers and appliances. Ten years ago I used to have $350 electric bills and electricity was substantially cheaper back then.

The incremental approach is the only one that makes any sense to me. Green up when you need to do major repairs and maintenance and do what you can where you can. Throwing 100k into an overcoat for your 3,000sf house is only worth it if it really makes you feel good and you have the cash to burn.

[LazloToth]

Look, the concept is valid. Do some homework and consider pricing this out yourself.
The foam costs $1.60 per square foot. The siding removal is a day or two for the average house, with two people working on it. Replace the windows and doors in their proper position, not recessed and the who project is fairly simple. If the house is 2500 sq. ft. this might cost $25-30K to do the walls, with new windows and new siding along with the foam. If you save $2,000 a year in heat and your house is now more comfortable, that is a big step. Those savings are forever. Foam insulation does not wear out.

We throw away that kind of money on cars every 5-10 years.

This is not a "sexy" project, like PV's or solar (I am in the solar business), but this makes a lot more sense then sending that other half of the heating bill to Saudi Arabia.

Merry Christmas!

[sanenazok]

I get my natural gas from Canada and the Mexicans thank you very much! Also, your *extremely* positive numbers don't work out. EVEN if the costs are 30K and the savings are 2K per year, that's still 15 years to recoup the costs! I just had a new flat roof put in, it cost 10K, so you can guess how much work you would get done for 30K? Probably most of the windows, not much more. If you have the time to do it yourself, then you won't have money to pay for the equipment. Well I guess that presumes you're not ghost-payroll'ing, which is common here (Chicago, Illinois). The other alternative is to have Santa bring the labor for Christmas!

[John Sawyer]

sanenazok:

Even 15 years to recoup costs is not that bad. But for many homes, adding superinsulation, etc. generally increases the value you can sell the home for, so for many people who sell their home before they recoup their insulation costs, they'll make up the difference (or close enough to it) in the sale.

[hoverguy]

This is news? Hello? My house in Eastern Washington had this done in the early 1980s.

We have 2 x 6 insulated walls, and then an exterior layer of foam insulation was retrofitted about 15 years after the home was built, with the wood siding reinstalled over that. The ceiling (half of which does not have an attic but is opened to the "roof") was also retrofitted with 2 inch foam board added on the bottom side and 2 inch foam board added on top, above which is plywood and normal roofing materials. This is in addition to pre-existing insulation materials.

On the bottom side of the roof (the ceiling), the foam board is hidden by a type of tongue-and-groove natural wood. Our heating costs seem to run half of similar - but not updated homes - or similar to the newest homes built with the latest in insulation codes.

[darkstar32170]

Superinsulating is a fine conservation idea, but from a ROI approach does not make much sense. Payback is just too long. However, I do believe in conservation but if you run the numbers you'll find that in Massachusetts wall insulation in excess of 35 and roof insulation in excess of 60 is a waste. By way of a simple explanation if 4" cuts your heating bill in half you've saved 50%. If you add another 4" you will save 50% again. However, this is only 25% of the original bill. The next 4" again saves 50% but is only 12.5% of the original heating cost - and so on. I've run the numbers (I am a Massachusetts architect) and this is just a simplified explanation of the concept. Reality is much worse so I counsel my clients to stop at R=35 for walls and R=60 for roofs. Windows, doors and ventilation are other things entirely.

[JJouni]

Superinsulate. Hehe, here in north-Europe this way is standard, not any super...
JJ
Finland