Comments on: It takes a village to sell an electric car

Mainstream plug-in electric cars will be available in two years, but auto makers will introduce them in welcoming communities first to boost their odds of success.

[larosese]

where are you going to get the electric in a freezeing storm and all the power is ous

[man290663]

have a wind power installed then when you lose the grid yu have yur own wind power during stormy conditions that can run the house as well as charge the car!!


Personally I like the idea of battery swap outs rather than charging stations.... less drain on the grid as they can be trickle charged a liesure using cheapest and greenest power... easy access to upgraded power packs taking in Lithium ion or whatever comes around. no power pack life cycle limitations easy upgrades...

[freemarket--2008]

That's called an emergency and a rare event.

Plug-in hybrids will still be able to run on gasoline once they deplete their batteries.

As stated in the article, there will be public charging stations, so unless the entire city is out, you will be able to find a place to charge up somewhere. Filling stations will likely have fast charging points as well.

[b_baggins]

It's not that emergency or rare. Major power outages happen every freaking winter in the northeast. Read the news.

The whole electric car movement is a big piece of crap being shoved down our throats.

[bwest33]

And today's gas pumps run on what exactly? Hopes and dreams?

[b_baggins]

Gas pumps run on electricity. But when you only have to fill your car once a week, a power outage isn't as significant as when you have to recharge your car twice a day.

[mikehill33]

I'll stick to my G35 and its 21 mpg, I have no interest in driving an econo-box solely on mileage potential.

The premium you pay for electric cars, given their uncertain long-term maintenance and disposal needs simply don't make it worth looking at electric.

Why pay the fan boy tax?

[technoguys]

Who needs a car? It will break down, it can't jump over fences, there is no paved road...I will stick to my horse.

Your G35 is too slow compared to what an electric car can be...Reminds me of "What's wrong with the horses
"A normal gas engine spins at 6,000 rpm," Garcia says, noticing my surprise. "This motor can spin up to 12,000 rpm," which means there's no need to change gears. "You don't have the normal car problem where you need first gear to get off the line. We just took the original transmission and stuck it permanently in second."

Just google "Shai Agassi and Wired" & read more about what the overall picture means. Here is the link to the original article...
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-09/ff_agassi?currentPage=7

Thanks!

[b_baggins]

Energy in one gram of gasoline. 47 million joules. Energy in one gram of battery. 600,000 joules.

End of story. Electric cars will always be anemic, underpowered and short-ranged. Stick your fingers in your ears all you want, that wall you are slamming into is called physics and it won't go away.

[iff2mastamatt]

No, bub. Remember that you need what for a battery? Lithium. Duhh. How would you expect such a vast amount of lithium to be used for a cars when there is less raw lithium than oil. It's an element (aka non-renewable raw material). Lithium batteries loose their charge very quickly (the larger, the worse), yet you expect hundreds of millions of these to be made? It's a good idea, but it's not going to physically happen. However, most people think that "technology" will improve over the years and these batteries will be able to drive for 400 miles as opposed to 40 miles. Not going to happen.

On the other hand, yes, electric cars are faster than gasoline consuming ones. Watch the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7352118104883452737

[OStrolphant]

you can recoup the extra cost of the car with gasoline savings pretty quickly.

[QMT]

Electric cars will continue to be a non-issue until they become affordable for the proletariat.
Build one that sells for less than $20K, and actually performs in the same league as a cheap $20 gasoline car, and then, only then will electric stop being a fantasy.

[b_baggins]

And it will never happen for the simple fact that batteries can never deliver the same energy density as gasoline. It's called physics and the environmentalists can pretend it doesn't exist until they are blue in the face. It will still smack them down.

[OStrolphant]

when was the last time you bought a car for $20?

[330DA]

Who pays?

Who pays for the public charging stations?
Who pays for the power to recharge these things from these public charging stations?

Someone other than the taxpayer better be paying. I'm tired of subsidizing every freeloader who comes along. 5% of taxpayers pay 60% of income taxes and that's too much. Get your hands out of my pocket!

[OStrolphant]

who's a free loader? people pay to use these? you can't charge for free. electricity coasts money.

[bj1126]

Driving to Americans is about freedom. You're not going to sell econoboxes that have a limited range to the masses and you're only going to **** them off, as many have demonstrated in these comments, by forcing them to pay for it on the back end through higher taxes.

Same thing with wind and solar power. People are trying to push these as alternatives using tax incentives in an attempt to show cost parity to current solutions. It cannot work like that and be viable.

[nakhaei82]

Didnt they already make these cars like 10 years ago and they had to take them of the street because Oil Companies didnt like the ideas. Another idea to take more money from people again. your should remember GM EV1, Toyota Rav EV, Honda EV.
Watch the movie called "Who Killed Electric Car"

[Wak_Em]

The electric car was not killed...just a poor shot...just winged-em.

[theBike45]

"Didnt they already make these cars like 10 years ago and they had to take them of the street because Oil Companies didnt like the ideas/"
Sure, whatever the oil companies don't like something, they remove it. Perhaps the fact that those electric cars sucked and cost a fortune and couldn't take you on a trip or haul anything MIGHT have been a factor in their non-acceptance by the public (battery costs were $4000 per year, swallowed by GM , but not Toyota). GM could never lease more than 80% of their electric cars at any one time. The electrics were total flops - they didn't need any conspiracies to disappear.
With ignorant folks like this one around, what hope is there for our future? And one just as brainless will move into the White House in January. He's teling everyone that the coastline is being submerged and that Katrina was the result of global warming, despite the fact that the past 10 years have been cooler than normal.

[AppleSuxLeo]

The Birkenstock crowd in San Francisco would buy the overpriced caskets with the 30 mile range. You know , the type that go on YELP because you didn`t refill their water glass in a timely manner.

[duggerdm]

I am very much for alternative energy. However, if you examine it's current status you will find a genuine lack of both environmental and economic efficiencies. Some of those inefficiencies (solar and wind) will go away with better technology and economies of scale, some may not. Unfortunately, the press is a terrible reporter of the facts - favoring more exciting hype.

One of my favorite examples of these fuzzy reality/economics is that you don't hear much about the real cost efficiency of electric cars. Have you ever seen a complete analysis - starting where you generally loose 30% of the mechanical energy expended to generate electricity, then you have the losses in the distribution the electricity from power plants to sub-stations to the users house or charging station. Now consider that the environmental cost associated with electric car construction is a lot higher than gas cars - especially when you examine the chemical waste products associated not only with battery production, but most especially in battery reclamation and recycling. We don't even have a working dry cell recycling system.

When you loop back on all of these costs and efficiency loss numbers to a power grid that is more than 85% dependent on fossil fuels for electrical generation no matter what time of day it happens - there are some very serious examinations that need to be very publicly made on whether an electrical car system actually puts us ahead economically (financial or energy economics) and environmentally. Or if these our strategies are just marketing tools by those in a position to gain from their adoption.

We are just now trying to come out of an extended period that has been totally characterized by political corruption, cronyism in collusion with corporate larceny at a scale never before imagined and where the US public/tax payer has been repeatedly lied to and date raped (Bush-Iraq, Blageovich, Madoff - just to name a very few). A period where US leadership (political or corporate) has no credibility what-so-ever for logical an unbiased decision processes for the public good . We really need to re-examine and re-evaluate the entire electric car strategy - our entire future energy strategies.

[stopcrazypp]

I have done the calculations using figures provided by the DOE:
US average fossil fuel powerplant efficiency (renewable and nuclear not included): 0.328, transmission efficiency:0.924
Take a RAV-4 EV (should be a good representation of what you can get with a practical EV) efficiency of 112mpg (this is plug to wheel, so it includes charging inefficiencies and battery inefficiencies already) equivalent combined: you get 33.94 mpg in the end. Slightly better than a Highlander Hybrid. Keep in mind this doesn't factor in the renewables and nuclear.
So the excellent efficiency of the EV makes up for the losses of the fossil fueled powerplant.
And on the issues of battery recycling and energy intensiveness of manufacturing, haven't seen any good rebuttal to the current accepted claim that we can handle it, given the accepted research showing around 80% of a car's energy use is during driving. I'm sure you have seen the heavily criticized and debunked report that found the Prius was worst for the environment than a Hummer after considering the manufacturing. Batteries are getting better and better, nimh still has the issue of nickel, but many of the new lithium based batteries are landfill safe. The manufacturing of these batteries really shouldn't be any more harmful than manufacturing a heavier car, given we no longer rely heavily on truely toxic batteries like lead or nickel cadmium. Of course lithium raises issues on the cost of recycling (material recovered is worth less than recycling cost). We can learn a lot on hybrid battery recycling, which seems to be going fine currently and I believe the ultimate burden of recycling will be on the manufacturer (esp with the proposed leasing program by Project Better Place) and it will be factored into the cost of the battery pack (costs a couple hundred to recycle a large pack last I looked). Using the used packs on the grid for load balancing is also a good alternative to prolong the usefulness of such packs.

As a new technology it will have to be subsidized in some ways in order to get things rolling (true of any of the alternatives we are considering). This means at least either incentives or direct money put into research. Currently very little is put into EVs comparatively (a lot more into ethanol and biofuels). I wouldn't mind if more money and incentives are spent with this in mind, especially to make the infrastructure to prepare. The time seems to be ripe for EVs because auto manufacturers are coming and offering EVs voluntarily this time.

Sources:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2003&make=Toyota&model=RAV4 EV&hiddenField=Findacar
Warning, PDF link:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2000_register&docid=00-14446-filed.pdf

[gdmaclew]

I have a question.
How do you heat an electric car?
If you use an electric heater it will drain the battery really quickly?

[b_baggins]

Yes. Ditto air conditioning. Ditto towing. Ditto driving uphill. There's a reason electric cars have failed every time they've been tried, and it isn't an oil conspiracy. It's because electrochemistry sucks at providing the energy density needed for truly heavy duty applications.

[nnormore18]

What is Charging stations Charged themselves up at night. and Charged our cars in the day time. That would take the load off in peak hours. Just a thought. Also research Nano Gate ultra capacitors, Japans new capacitor. Very interesting. Just some ideas.

[willdryden]

Fact - The U. S. grid can charge 70% of all vehicles if they were electric right now between the hours of 10PM and 4AM without adding capacity.
Fact - It will take 10 to 15 years for electric cars to reach that saturation point because of people who know nothing but run their mouths off.
Fact - Plugin hybrids like the Volt do not need public charging stations, or Utility involvement. They draw less than a plasma TV.

[duggerdm]

Speaking running mouths, it would seem technically none of your assumptions are facts. Since none of what you state is actually in existence and therefore has it been reproduciably demonstrated - a factual requirement. It is all based on theoretical calculations, I suspect quite a few "expert opinions" - not facts, wherein lies the range of this debate.

[Wak_Em]

Fact...get your facts straight, then you can distort them as you please.

[GregBlencoe]

This article is only the beginning of all of the problems with plug-in battery technology. There is a reason that Honda (an extremely smart company) has completely rejected th technology.

I would highly recommend reading the following article which is titled the "Top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery technology:"

http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/top-25-quotes-from-toyota-and-honda-executives-criticizing-plug-in-battery-technology/

Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.

[Poddy Mon]

Oh great. Now we've woken up the hydrogen nim nims. And your interest in talking down plug-ins would be? (answer to rhetorical question: A commercial one.)

A few things for you to ponder:
1. Toyota and Honda talk down plug-ins because they don't want to focus on the market. This is a commercial decision, not necessarily a technical one.
2. Hydrogen technology, like plug-ins, requires those little electricity thingos. It comes from the same places the little electricities that power the plug-ins come from. Oh, and it requires storage the likes of which make petrol and LPG tanks look primitive (and cheap) by comparison.
3. What's that you say? Hydrogen Fuel cells? Yep, they work, but the manufacture costs make Li/Ion batteries look cheap by comparison. And yes, the cost will come down as the technology improves, but the same argument goes for battery technology.
4. What is it about alternative energy/alternative fuel proponents that makes them talk down all the others? Limited investment funds compared to proven technologies (petrol/gasoline, coal, LPG/LNG, and yes, even nasty nuclear). It is all about the grab for cash. Far be it for me to suggest a more united approach might serve everyone's interests.

This is going to be a long race to the finish folks (look how long petrol has been around). It won't be over by 2012, or 2020. In fact, with a bit of luck, the innovation will keep going. Including better, more efficient/cleaner petrol and diesel engines, better hybrids, and better plug-ins, with better/cleaner processes to provide the power for all of them (and let's not forget better public transport to give us more options).

Ultimately though it is up to we, the consumers, to vote with our feet and wallets, and also at the ballot box for those who encourage development of greener transport and energy technologies (note the deliberate use of the plural folks).

Electric vehicles.
OK, problems: short range, longer stops to "gas-up" with electricity, the possibilities of brown/black-outs, and the (environmental and monetary) costs of generating electricity.
OK, solution? small, on-vehicle turbines that produce electricity to both charge batteries and/or power the motor(s)....use the batteries for getting under way, and a wind powered generator (turbine) to begin powering the motor at say 10-15mph, collect air at the front of the vehicle, funnel it through a venturi to increase it's speed, and direct it onto fan blades connected to the wind powered generator. Simple, easy, minimal drain on existing power plants, and cost effective. Fans to make a vehicle work better? I wonder what Jim Hall would think of the idea.

[Wak_Em]

...exactly...use solar panels to power a wind mill...what a concept.

[iff2mastamatt]

Wind turbines would cause more friction than power. Duh.

[OStrolphant]

this is called perpetual motion and does not work well in reality. the venturi and the turbines would pull more energy from drag than they would produce in power.

[billeeyum]

I think electric cars are all hype. Biodiesel is where we should be looking for the future. It works with technology thats been around for decades, it is cleaner than gasoline, requires minimal changes to both fueling stations and driving habbits, and is renewable. Efficient, Clean, Here, and requires not technological break throughs.

[iff2mastamatt]

Spot on!

[markb1967]

GM could have been the apple computers of cars in the 90's with the EV-1, but greed made them cancel and recall the cars once california ruled in their favor. Why did the EV-1 get 100+ miles per charge, loved by anyone who drove it, and was very reliable get crushed in the desert by GM?

GREED, GM wanted to sell more expensive cars, maintenance, and their good friends the oil companies...15 years later and none of the big 3 can come close to the EV-1...what's the problem?

[Tinman52]

If they were so good, why didn't a new competitor get into the market? We're seeing new entrants from Asia doing very well over the last 10 years. If the electric car is so great, why didn't someone just copy the technology and start a new company?

I'm all for renewable energy and change, but I've yet to see something conclusive on the electric car being the solution. Like people have previously said, it looks like we're shifting the problem from the consumer end to the utility side where it's more hidden. You solve one problem and create 10 more.

[kfourog]

So much negativity on "Electric Cars". If GM can resolve it's present problems and gets the Volt on the show room floor in 2010. I think they will be pleased with the public's response. I look forward to buying one or an import EV when its available. If you don't like the EV for what ever reason...don't buy one. I like having the option available.

[tj4fa]

I got tired of waiting on GM (and everybody else) to develop Electric Vehicles.

Below is a link to my Battery powered Electric Vehicle (BEV) that I converted for less than $10K on weekends for about 3 months give-or-take. I use it to drive to work, around town, and back home daily then I charge over-night and get 45-60 miles of range on a charge. I can also plug in at work and get more range if needed.

[url]http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o42/jaynethecat/Ranger%20EV/[/url]

Soon, I will add a 30KW generator to make it a series hybrid and have all that the GM Chevy Volt will ever have except the big price tag and their expensive OEM price replacement parts for when their "new" technology parts fail.

Below is a link to others who have done conversions to cars they have. You can do a search by make/type of vehicle at the top of the page to see what other makes have been done and view them as well.

[url]evalbum.com[url]

[markb1967]

Awesome dude...how much to do my 98 kia sportage?
You should start your own conversion company.

[dennisl59]

Would someone please explain to me the "love affair" with Electric Vehicles? Why not proven Compressed Natural Gas technology?

[tiktin]

Gas stations need to become charging stations. Cars need to be charged in five minutes or less, not three hours. That means massive amounts of electric power will have to be fed into gas stations. You are right that we need international charging standards. It is not a technological problem. The standard for plugs will have to involve something like a hundred pins mated to something like an old fashioned shower head, each pin charging one cell of the battery pack, in order to transfer that much power in so short a time. Of course there will have to be safety features so that people don't electrocute themselves. Government may well need to jump start the process, as you say, but once there are a significant number of electric cars and a charging standard, it will become a source of profit for utilities and gas stations and they will install the necessary hardware on their own.