Comments on: Hawaii unveils plans for Better Place

Shai Agassi's company to bring a network of battery exchange stations for electric cars to the islands.

[HlLLARY CLITON]

I didn't know the batteries were that easy to replace

[Thunderbuck]

If I recall, the vehicles were extensively engineered to accomodate this. It's done with a robotic mechanism, and takes place in roughly the same time it takes to fill a gas tank.

[forever4now]

One role Better Place could potentially play is that of driving/coordinating the standardization of the electric car grid components. For example:

- charging station plug configuration (more important in Europe)
- charging station power requirements (slow charge, quick charge)
- battery swap stations (battery dimensions & power requirements)
- vehicle-to-grid technology
- billing system
- etc.

Once these things are more-or-less agreed upon, any vendor could offer a solution for any of the components, quickly driving the costs down through competition.

[faboumen]

another asinine ploy to nature, meanwhile "they" build hotels by the millions & pump all the waste & sewage into the sea, "they" are also so bold that huge pipes now occupy the sidewalk what a tool!

[Thunderbuck]

I like Better Place's business model, which could go a very long way to making EV infrastructure practical.

First, the idea of using renewable energy specifically for recharging is excellent, and probably the sanest use of the most variable renewables. To tie wind into the grid sounds great, but causes a lot of headaches for distributors as power production fluctuates.

If Better Place's recharging stations are tied to wind power production levels, though, then instead of trying to juggle other generators, Hawaii Electric can just vary BP's consumption. Might take a little longer for their batteries to charge, but it reduces overall instability for the entire grid.

Note that in the longer term this model would work fabulously for hydrogen production, too.

In the meantime, consumers aren't burdened by worries about individual battery failure, or the need to recycle spent batteries. Better Place can do this in bulk far more efficiently, and while the consumer would still pay (via battery lease), the lower overall cost should benefit consumers in the long run.

Relatively isolated places like Hawaii are ideal test-beds for this kind of initiative. I'll be keeping an eye on this.

[©APPLE©]

So what happens when you mix oxygen, salt water, and metal?

[askalako]

Apple,

are you saying you can't have cars in places like hawaii or any coastal region for that matter?

[Crebes]

Odd... maybe I'm overlooking something but...

90% of Hawaii's electric power industry generation is from Petroleum.

So what is the advantage again?

[readbetter]

It's based on renew not oil, so less oil consumption on each end, to re-boost and to fill up

[SteveJabali]

That?s a great question: why burn oil to make electricity to power vehicles, when you just burn the oil in the vehicle?

First, burning the oil to make electricity to power vehicles will release less CO2 overall.

Second, think of it as a series of steps:
1. Put vehicles on the electric grid.
2. Improve the electricity generation process to non-carbon sources.

If you never do step 1 you will never get to the point where a major source of atmospheric CO2 is removed.

[delpane]

Did you read the article?

"The state's electric utility signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Better Place which plans to power its public charging and battery-swapping stations with renewable energy resources."

Sure wind and solar aren't the most reliable as a renewable resource, but geothermal and wave power sources are. They are incredibly constant and able to provide a huge amount of power. You use the unreliable sources to charge batteries at swapping stations and use the more reliable power on the grid for the "fueling" stations.

[noamjg]

It is ALWAYS better for pollution to burn oil in one place than spread out to many vehicles. This is true in every case.

Besides, part of the plan is to make 70% renewable

[SFrobertP]

2-part answer:
1. Recharging of batteries can take place primarily at night, when there is excess capacity in the electric grid. Power plants have to be designed to meet peak consumption which occurs during the day (air conditioning, companies, office buildings, etc.). They cannot be turned off at night (it's costly and difficult to shut down a power plant), and therefore most of the energy generated at night is wasted. Electric energy cannot be stored. Conclusion: Charging electric car batteries at night would not increase petroleum consumption, unless the amount of energy used exceeds the excess capacity in the power grid.
2. It will take a long time for the number of electric cars to reach the threshold where recharging significantly affects peak electricity use. By that time, renewable sources should be coming online, if the government is serious about providing incentives alternative energy generation.

[©APPLE©]

Wait, if it takes the same time to fill up a gas tank in a gas car and a gas car can travel like 2 times the distance...that means im wasting 2 times as much time at the battery station...

[selfkill]

Um well, there's other variables besides how much time it takes you at the pump (e.g. environmental friendliness, saving money, less dependence on foreign nations, etc). I guess if your discard all of that, this is a HUGE disadvantage.

[cantresist]

I don't think this is actually true, because you can also recharge the batteries at common parking spots (workplace, home, etc). The only time this ratio would apply is on long distance trips with no stops, which should be pretty rare in the initial deployment areas of Better Place.

[professor1a]

Wasting time? While companies are applying current technology with renewable resources and developing even more - you are worried about an extra 5 minutes of your time to change a battery??? I am glad there are more people disgusted with the cost increases due to oil dependence and actively working toward a greener solution than those with excess cash to burn who would rather pump high priced gasoline than change a battery.

We need more States and municipalities- even the Federal Gov't to embrace this green technology even in its less efficient or less convenient stages so that the upward process of evolving the current technology into a better resource can begin to increase at an even faster rate.

[CountryClubRepublican]

Actually a great idea. You could also carry spare batteries in case you run out or are on long trips. Hawaii has wind and ocean power they could use for generation, or of course, nuclear.

[bathroomstall]

Not likely. Batteries are heavy. Carrying extras won't be an option unless you ride alone and never go shopping.

[bathroomstall]

Not likely. Batteries are heavy. Carrying extras won't be an option unless you ride alone and never go shopping.

[scottsdale_golfie]

Why doesn't Hawaii emulate Iceland in it's quest for independance from fossil fuels? Wouldn't there be residual heat in some of the younger volcanic islands!! You would think someone could have harnessed it by now.

hmmmm.... when I lived in Hawaii, the majority of electricity was created from barged in oil........ I looked up HECO's website and while they are quick to point out that they have renewable sources, they still use 31% of all imported oil for electricity - the same amount the entire state uses for air transportation- they have lots of air transportation!!

How is this supposed to help the environment if they haven't got the majority of their power system off imported oil? I guess... it's good for the electrical car industry in general.... but that's about it.

[Maui_dazed]

It all sounds good but who will pay for all this infrastructure? We were promised cheaper electrical power when the windmills were placed on the hillside. But Maui Electric never passed on the savings to the customers. They want to finance part of a huge biofuels complex from palm oil at the cost to the environment and pass that on to the customers as well. Don't be fooled by this next simple solution until you ask who will pay for it. Go for more wind power and solar power and infuse it into the grid and wait for the plug-in hybrid OR look into more alternate fuels through sugar cane.

[thoughtchallenge]

This sounds like a promising approach. Lithium Ion battery production needs to be expanded more quickly, however. It's kind of like watching the grass grow. It's not the technology anymore, it's just a matter of getting the production rate up.

http://politicalthoughtchallenge.blogspot.com/

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[Kauaihulagirl]

If you live in HI you would understand that unless you are a cab driver it is almost impossible to drive over 50-75 miles per day. Not only do they have wind that is almost a constant situation, waves that are on going (after all they are all islands surrounded by the ocean) but, you have an active volcano on the Big Island which could probably supply the entire chain of islands with all of the energy used on a daily basis. The only bad part of the whole concept is that unless something changes radically we will be subject to a foreign country for our battery supplies. That leaves us in the same position as we have now except that we have traded our dependency from the middle east to the far east.

[kacirooroo]

This is the coolest news ever for those who realize the importance of America becoming more energy independent. Better Place is also engaged in a project in California in the cities of San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose to do the same. I read about this in Jeff Wilson's new Book The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence NOW. I was enthralled but thought quite frankly that it was kind of futuristic. I was thrilled beyond belief when I read the news about the project in CA and now this. I am a huge fan of Better Place now. I would recommend anyone interested in seeing these projects furthered in our country go to the Better Place web site and sign up. They have a feature on the top right hand side that says "get involved" If you click on that you can actually sign an online petition.

[kacirooroo]

We have to look at "the big picture." Our days of tunnel vision need to cease. Our nation better wake up and smell the coffee. With all our bail outs along with the 168 billion economic stimulus package, that btw did nothing for our economy it is hard to understand why our government can't see the need to bail us out of our dependence on foreign oil. The high cost of fuel this past year seriously damaged our economy and society. Why don't we invest in America's Energy Independence. It would cost the equivalent of 60 cents per gallon to charge and drive. The electricity used to charge the car could conceivably be generated by solar or wind. Why not invest some of these millions in getting some of these projects set up? Create clean cheap energy, badly needed new green collar jobs and reduce our dependence on foreign oil. What more of a win-win situation could there be? Now there is talk of another stimulus pkg. Don't get me wrong, if you hand me a check I will take it. . I just think we are going about this all wrong. I just read a fascinating book by Jeff Wilson called The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence NOW. We need to look at the "big picture" This book Is the big picture. www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com

[cerebral_but_dull]

Technology doesn't fall from heaven in final form. We didn't get from a Roman chariot to a Prius in a single jump, but one step at a time, with a few dead ends too. Please allow progress without the endless naysaying that this isn't the total answer.

[bobhopefan]

While this idea has a chance of workin in relatively small countries and places with limited areas (Israel, Denmark, Hawaii) - it seems totally impractical for larger areas, including California. The general public is naturally more inclined to go with something that's faster, easier or offers them the best options - Better Place is lacking these qualities for large populations in large countries.

The majority of the people will not want to constantly have to charge their cars or frequently go to a power station to get their battery swapped out. If you drive 30 miles to work in California - that's a 60 mile roundtrip per day, not including the common sidetrips for shopping, etc... I'm not sure what the range is for the two vehicles they make, but if you have to recharge every 2 or 3 days and you can ONLY go to charging station to swap out a battery - that's a hassle - one which most people will not want. Yes, they can can charge their cars at home as well, but not everyone has convenient access to an outlet that will reach the car (if you live in apt. complex or if you need to park on the street or if you don't or can't park in your garage. Also, who wants to have to remember to charge your car every couple of days - and if you forget the night before you're really up a creek in the morning when you have to go to work.

Then the cars themselves are an issue - you need to have a large enough variety for a large proportion of people to consider them - when you have numerous car options that run on gas or "2" that work with Better Place - most people will hesitate at sacrificing a vehicle which may be more ideal for their needs just to get an electric car. Of course, there's also the risk factor - if Better Place doesn't take off, you just spent a lot of money on a car which is almost obsolete (except that you can charge it at home until the battery is no longer holding a charge). Performance and range of the vehicle is also a concern for large places - it will take Better Place many years (<10+ years) and billions of dollars in California *alone* to match the convenience of having gas stations everywhere - and if you want to drive out of state where Better Place doesn't yet have any power stations, you're stuck and can't go on a long drive.

Considering all the positive feedback above, I realize there are people who are going to be defensive about my points, but these are all realistic and practical issues which work against Better Place. They're trying to go from one extreme (totally gas powered car infrastructure) to the opposite (completely electric powered car infrastructure) - it's too big a leap. It can work in smaller areas/countries, if some of the other issues I noted above can be addresses (such as people's desire and sometimes need for variety). But this is a lousy idea for a large area/country and as far as I can tell, a really dumb thing for California to take on.

One possible better approach is to go with hybrids for now and gradually build an electric based infrastructure and wait until alternative technology has matured that can handle power storage better (but this has its own risks - what if the solution in the end is not based on electricity, but something like hydrogen?). The fact is, gas is extremely efficient compared to all other viable options right now and that's why no other alternative has been jumped on and pursued. Doing something just because you want or feel the need to isn't going to fix the issue - just wastes lots of money. If there isn't a good option yet, then it's necessary to continue researching technology until one is developed - that's a much better way to spend the money at this point.

[willdryden]

How many one car families do you know? Just take the other car. For every family with two cars, one could be an electric. Forget Better Place and just charge at home except there are no electric cars because of people like you who think they can not be useful.