Comments on: MIT researchers split water to store solar energy

Inspired by photosythesis, chemistry researchers at MIT devise a catalyst that can help store the sun's energy by splitting hydrogen and oxygen from water.

[b_baggins]

Anyone notice how it's always "10 years"

[ewelch]

Actually, I had a conversation with Edward Teller (father of the hydrogen bomb) in 1996. I asked him when he thought we'd have nuclear fusion reactors that could economically produce electricity for consumers. He said 2020 to 2025. So that was more like 30 years.

[Renegade Knight]

Heck I had this idea 10 years ago. So that's at least 20 years.

[jabailo]

This seems to justify the claims made by car company Genepax about developing a "car that runs on water". They do the same thing with their MEA catalyst that can separate H2 from 0 with less energy than standard electrolysis.

[tacit]

Actually, it doesn't. The amount of energy required to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is fixed by the laws of physics. The water in the system described in this article is not an energy SOURCE; it is energy STORAGE, like a battery. Excess solar energy is used to split hydrogen and oxygen; then, at night, they are recombined in a fuel cell to make electricity when the sun is down.

The "run your car on water" scams all say that you can use water as the energy SOURCE. But it takes as much energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen as you get when you put them back together. You can't get energy for free.

If it were possible to use less energy to separate water than you get putting them back together, you'd have a perpetual motion machine. Sounds wonderful, doesn't? Too bad those pesky laws of physics interfere.

[JCPayne]

Good idea... Hydrogen is flammable and the oxygen gives something to spur the ignition of the hydrogen so just add fire..... Only problem is. Hydrogen gas soo-- reminds me of the Hindenburg (blimp) disaster......

[4DifferentPerspective]

Obviously you work for the Fossil Fuels lobby, otherwise, you wouldn't pretend to be this ignorant. Your scare mongering isn't working, everyone knows that gasoline is flamable, and yet billions of people drive around with their children and loved ones in the car while hauling gallons of the stuff. And burning gasoline has some nasty by-products while recombining hydrogen and oxygen only produces WATER. Go back to bribing politicians and stop scarring the public.

[MRmikol]

so are gas oil and other types of engery but safety back ups can be used with H2 and O. I mean you don't see ER exploding every where do you ? and theres oxy. in them all at least I hope there is.

[Manhattan2]

Keep Solar panels off of rooftops. that is not the answer. MIT needs to look at the Manhattan 2 Project for the answers. Storage and transfer of the energy our devices will capture is the key to our program. When enough people are ready for the answer we will provide it. H2Farm, Solar Transfer, Renewable Energy Program all coming soon! Mitch Govansky

[bommor]

This kind of thing just annoys me....There is absolutely nothing new in this article. Electrolysis has been around since Faraday's time, and from this article, it doesn't appear that this MIT researcher has done anything new. While thankfully, this is not a closed-loop energy system and therefore doesn't break the Law of Energy Conservation.

Overall, it seems to me that these researchers just found a new material...not exactly breaking news...

[GRobLewis]

Amen to you bommor! Next thing you know, the popular press will be publishing breathless articles about how this revolutionary breakthrough will enable "cars that run on water."

Oh, for some reporters that actually understand the science they write about!

[Renegade Knight]

That is news. For a water based closed system car to be viable you have to speed up the reaction so you can at least drive it back and forth to work using a roof top solar panel or a plug in. Yeah it doesn't change the basics, but the basic idea does need improved to be viable, and viable is the news.

[ikramerica--2008]

DUH?

The only thing about this story that's new is the phrasing and the credit taking. I've been saying for years that the way to create cheap hydrogen is via solar farms in the ocean. It's not a new concept, as bommor has pointed out. It's old school.

All MIT is doing is calling it "solar energy storage" rather than "hydrogen fuel production." But energy is energy, and "storing" energy by creating hydrogen is no different than "using" energy to create hydrogen.

But again, all this would do is create a severe water shortage far worse than fuel shortage unless it's paired with a technology to desalinate ocean water, and then that water would need to come from offshore areas that wouldn't impact coastlines and sealife.

[rapier1]

Yes you have been saying it for years. I recall all of the papers you published in Science and other journals over the years. Its nothing but plagiarism!

[skillingssucks]

By the way "Einstein", the process works with salt water. No desalination needed. [rolls eyes]

[carlhage]

Independent of possible manufacturing cost or H2 storage, the real problem is that fuel cells have pretty low efficiency (about 50% at the system level, the rest is waste heat), compared to batteries (around 90%). Currently, small-scale electrolyzers are only 50% efficient (so 25% round trip), but maybe this "breakthrough" improves the pretty horrible efficiency of electrolysis. Unless you are using the fuel cell for home heating, batteries are better (and currently cheaper).

[bigblogger]

"CREDIT TAKING" by MIT is that is this 'BREAKING' news about
this method of producing hyderogen has been there since even before i was born.
my daughter started LAUGHING when they said they need 10 MORE YEARS , HA HA HA HA stupid idiots. this idea has been ther since last 100 years and they need 10 more years.

[Tui Pohutukawa]

Electrolysis is so 19th century. Try this:

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

[ktmotox]

I got the same reaction as bommer and ikramerica--2008. What's the new discovery here?
"Nocera and his MIT colleague, Matthew Kanan, on Thursday will publish a technical paper that describes what they claim is a breakthrough in solar energy storage...The core scientific discovery was finding a way to break oxygen out of the water with a relatively inexpensive and benign material, Nocera said. Ok, so they found a better way to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. That has nothing to do with solar panels or closed-loop systems. I could fire up my gasoline powered electric generator to power their electrolysis process.

[TieMeDown]

Sorry to repeat the opinions of others, but yes, this article is junk. All that is clear is that they have made some advance in fuel cell technology, but all the rest is just PR hype, and the article gives absolutely no information on what this advance is or what impact it will have on use of fuel cells as batteries to accompany solar power.

[Seaspray0]

Well, what do ya know? Next they'll figure out how to grow plants with sunlight and dirt. It's not like that's happened before.

[jpm99]

Forget the fuel cell and electrolysis. It would be far cheaper to store solar using compressed air in residential applications. The primary drawback of compressed air is that a lot of energy is lost from heat generation during compression. However, residential is perfectly suited to recature this energy for use in home heating. During the summer, the airflow can be directed over the expansion part of the loop and you get air conditioning. In other words the system doubles as an air conditioner or heat pump. Considering the energy capture, the entire system would be more efficient than electrocysis and a fuel cell, at a fraction of the cost.

[outcast3d]

Okay, I think most of you are missing the point of this discovery. Read carefully.

They aren't saying that electrolysis is a new thing, that would be a ridiculous thing to claim and everyone knows that. What has been discovered here is a new (here's the important part) inexpensive and more efficient way to do it. The current way of using electricity to split water into it constituent parts is very inefficient. Using this method isn't practical for home use, as it would require most of the solar energy you produce to make it useful. The new material used here is more efficient and quite abundant, thus making it inexpensive to do the same thing (less energy + inexpensive, abundant materials = breakthrough). The design needs perfecting and honing to make it the easiest and most viable method as well as to develop commercial products using this technique. Hence the 10 more years needed before you will see this method on the market.

The H2/O2 storage is the only way to store this type of energy. The fuel cell is the most efficient way to utilize this type of stored energy. You could further its efficiency by using the waste heat of the fuel cell to heat the water for your shower. It doesn't necessarily need to be wasted. You could use batteries to store energy from a solar array but they cannot store anywhere near as much energy per unit mass as chemical fuels such as H2/O2. Batteries also have a problem with climate, such as extreme cold and extreme hot. This system would not be as susceptible to the climate as batteries. Herein lies the breakthrough...

[woollyyams]

I'm glad someone spelled it out to the pseudo intellectual posters on here who think they know everything. No electrolysis is not new (congrats to everyone for knowing some high school science) but YES this IS a breakthrough.

[Aspire2Renew]

This is a pretty weak 'breakthrough'. There are certainly much more significant findings then this which can be written about. First off, a cobalt phosphate catalyst sounds pretty obscure to me. I've seen and worked with phosphate derivatives named Silica Alumina Phosphates with additional transition metals (such as cobalt). Many of these types of materials already exist. Therefore, they could have indeed invented some new wonder catalyst, but most likely its something already made but applied in a different field of catalysis.

The idea is decent, but, fuel cells are not known for durability at this point in time. I wonder if the upkeep of such a continuous system will justify the cost of expensive, efficient solar panels, platinum catalysts and other fuels cells components. Overall, this seems to be a roundabout kind of solution to the problem.... Keep trying though MIT, perhaps this is the start of something better soon to come.

[imacpwr]

quote: "The hope is that within 10 years.."

Am I the only one hearing a violin player in the background...???

[tech_crazy]

Articles like these seem very much like company advertising/hype and provide very little new information, if any. Sadly I have lately been seeing that trend with Martin's articles. Just not worth anyone's time. Also, has anyone noticed that with the "new" cnet pages, the print option has sorely gone missing?

[Aspire2Renew]

sorry I just realized what was making me so skeptical about this process. After all these conversions taking place from an inefficient solar panel, the gas needs to be stored. We all know that liquified gas is the only feasible method of mass storage, and liquid hydrogen requires -252C (-423F). Is is really worth all that to compress and refrigerate the minuit amount produced off electrolysis? I still think batteries or direct use would be the best solution for solar panels thus far...

[Cheah K A]

Dear Sir,

To run your cars using electricity will only release Greenhouse gases to pollute the atmosphere with no advantage to the present equilibrium from your Conventional Power Stations unless your Power Stations are run by Solar Energy or Wind Turbine or HHO deriving from Water.

We fully support the views that Water will one day replace Fossil Oil as the fuel to run all internal combustion engines (for both types whether petrol or diesel), despite suppression from vested interests.

Water(The Rocket Fuel) Miracle -The Truly Divine Gift of Enormous Power Storage & Reserve

Every Country in the World has a great responsibility to control the further release & emission of Greenhouse Gases from Fossil Oil/Fuels and to look for the really clean & cheap alternative fuels to replace Petrol/Diesel/Coal/Natural Gas in order to reduce the incidences of Global Warming that will cause hardships & deaths in many Natural Disasters cause by adversed climatic changes.

As there were successful inventors like pioneer Stanley Meyer who was murdered in 1998 and his technologies were immediately suppressed, he had more than 40 patents in his name in this water fracturing technologies and many successful ones like him were also murdered by vested interests to suppress this technologies. Yull Brown & Daniel Dingel whose proven technologies were also suppressed and now one budding Dennis Klein in USA whose water splitting technologies are proven but pending patent approvals by the Patents & Trademarks Office of USA. All these murders and suppressions were made out of greed of the vested interests in Fossil Oils and Fuels.

Nikola Tesla, the greatest inventor of the last century, had also successfully invented the technologies to generate power without fuel to run Power Stations and Cars but his technologies also were suppressed immediately after his death by the US Government and that his technologies were kept classified top secret until today.

The impending decision to increase the prices of Petroleum Products, like Petrol, Diesel and Kerosene and also Natural Gas is inevitable although some are nett Producer and Exporter of Fossil Oil and the profits only goes to Oil Cartels to further boost their earning without considering the hardship the ordinary local poor citizens who have to face in their daily lives barely earning just enough from hand to mouth but have the small luxury of owning a small second hand car to brave the elements in scorching sunshine and getting wet in the rain to go to work at their own time without having to rush joining with the crowds of using the local inefficient Bus Transportation System in waiting for many hours for a Bus to arrive in slightly remote areas. All these will change with the increase in prices of the Petroleum Products. There is only one way right now that will maintain the momentum despite the Impending Increases in all Prices come June or July 2008:-

These same principles will be applicable to Power Stations which will save most of the money from fuel costs and they can now reduce their present tariffs by 80% with hydrogen & oxygen (HHO) gases extracted & derived from Water as their final fuel source. Quote: "Obviously Water holds a better promise as the Alternative Fuel:-In our school days we have learnt in Physics that it possible to split water into its basic atomic components with the application of electricity but even great scientists overlooked the fact that Water is by itself the better, more efficient and safer storage of power, the promise water has as an alternative fuel has been unlimited using a simple process of using electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen "on demand basis" only when required, where the hydrogen & oxygen gases' power to drive a car engine will also recharge the battery (minimum 9 volts) that originally did the electrolysis splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen and also the hydrogen will be only produced when needed just before starting the engine and the electrolysis process will be switched-off when switching off the engine at the same time. This hydrogen & oxygen (HHO) gases-run engines will run cars, SUVs, trucks, buses, trains and airplanes & power stations & as Rocket's Fuel as well so cheaply and successfully that no other alternative fuels would ever be needed"

Please watch the "youtube" clip on what the HHO gases can do and in the Same Principles, this could also be applicable to run Power Stations as well instead to replace Natural Gas or other fuels:- Conspiracy has caused the Water Car Patented Pioneer Inventor to be murdered by selfish Oil Companies and vested interests to suppress his most advanced technologies:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stApCmxYEM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75_TGiwg78&feature=related



9v battery will create hydrogen from water: reader comment from Zupek
Posted on: June 4, 2007, 9:47 AM PDT
Story: Alternative fuel for thought

Go home, fill a small dish with water. Go get a NEW and FULLY CHARGE 9v battery. Put one wire to the positive and put it in the water and do the same for the negative.


Those bubbles you see in the water are HYDROGEN and OXYGEN. and it took hardly any power...

Water- the divine gift has the power to give life to all beings on earth or this universe will also give power to all common internal combustion engines in the simple process of electrolysis to produce the fuels in the form of hydrogen & oxygen gases HHO that we would ever need to run everything on earth in including power stations & rockets




Daniel Dingel's Car running on 100% HHO fractured from Water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ONP-kOMXU&feature=related

- Hide quoted text -
WATER CAN RUN CAR INSTEAD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMWd6T_hbhQ

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=related&search_query=hho%20hydrogen%20alternative%20fuel%20water%20power%20magdrive&v=yMWd6T_hbhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6YYUOx6fBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWDZ0RGWBUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9-mMV6dt2o

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=related&search_query=magnum%20magdrive%20hho%20gens%20fuel%20water%20hydrogen&v=r9Osmwd-o7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kOzQXcYpSc


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis#Electrolysis_of_water

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=related&search_query=alien%20ufo%20bush%20boylan%20ship%20disc%20recycle%20clean%20planet%20green&v=IXzK-zrWDgI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb8wIqECwGE&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMxAbqnLw-o&mode=related&search=

K A Cheah
Tel: [phone]

[vtchuck2000]

I would just release the O2 into atmosphere upon "splitting". Too dangerous to stop fuel so close with oxygen and there is plenty of O2 in the air when you need it anyway.

[the_inventor]

This technology only works when you have Sun's energy therefore it is not reliable.

Here is one that is,

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16477