Comments on: EU notice to Microsoft re browser

Regulators confirm that they have sent a statement of objections to Microsoft, on the grounds that the IE-Windows connection harms competition.

[hpractv]

So, if you have no web browser to start with, how do you go get a competing browser?

I don't like IE that much, but you have to have some sort of web browser on your operating system to begin with, and it seems really dumb to put your competitor's browser when you already have one. You can't put an old version, because it's insecure.

It's like making a car company put another car company's engine in the car and not charge for it.

[smonoco]

Good point - i hadnt thought of that.

[reate]

This is a red herring. When a new PC is started, it could ask the user which browser to install. Only standards-compliant browsers should be offered. Having Opera, Firefox and Safari in the list seems fair. And IE, if they can seriously change the attitude of the IE developers.

I'm happy to see that EU takes on Mircrosoft. The web is too important to leave to one company.

[kstjohn]

@ reate

Once again you are taking Microsoft to task when computer manufacturers can, and do, install alternative browsers on new computers running Windows today. Dell ships Firefox with PC's as do others for example.

[Mark_Anderson]

So the outcome is that Microsoft will have to offer a version of Windows without IE installed to OEMs and, just like happened with WMP, no-one will buy them!

What an absolute joke and a waste of time.

[pithenumber]

@reate
force all browsers to be like IE
about your list of browsers to include: What about Chrome and Konqueror, unless you include all of the browsers out there, it is still unfair

[pablouk1]

Can't this stupid EU not get it into their stupid backward litttle brains that if people don't want IE they do not have to pick micosoft as an operating system.

Can someone not show these morons in Brussels how to download firefox etc.
Its not bloody hard.

If I was Microsoft I would tell the EU to F off dont want it Don't bye it.

PS i'm English and I hate the EU I am like 99 % of English people, we want out of the EU.

All they want is to find another way of making money for themselves. "Pigs with their noses in the trough"

[reate]

Downloading a browser is a hassle and most people never download software. Microsoft, of course, is well aware of this -- and this is why most people out there use Internet Explorer.

How many users would IE have if you had to download it yourself --- and reboot your machine three times or so to make it happen? Very, very few.

Therefore, bundling is what keeps IE afloat and EU is right in looking at it.

[bershi]

@pablo

You drive on the left side of the street in England, right?

We can't have it like that on the web, I'm afraid. Browsers must follow certiain rules -- especially browsers coming from a monopolist. Microsoft has -- on purpose -- not developed their browser for years and its standards support is poor. The upcoming IE8 may be slightly better (apparently it will -- finally -- support Acid2) but that's only because web authors have been screaming for years.

EU can be much more efficient: split IE from Windows and see how long IE Inc. survives on its own.

[kstjohn]

@reate

If downloading a browser is such a hassle, then how did Firefox gain so much market share? You clearly are an ABM'r, and likely a european who likes to see the EU go after US companies. I'm afraid the EC is forgetting the law of unintended consequences on this one though.

[tm_anon]

When's the last time you tried uninstalling IE completely from your system? Anyone in this thread can answer that question. It's not so much that IE is there, it's that you can't uninstall it either. Even if you stop using it, it's still there. By making MS remove IE and allow for an OS to be sold without it, that problem goes away. The public can finally be rid of the crap that is IE unless they choose to have it. Right now, even if you download another browser, you really don't get a choice.

[pithenumber]

@tm_anon
Windows is quite unstable without IE, lots of programs also refuse to run since they used Trident, I have tried removing IE, I decided to never do it agian.

[Perry_Clease]

If I understand this correctly, and I may not, the problem is that Explorer is bundled into the operating system. Is that correct?

[Acaykath]

The problem is that opera is doing poorly, and since it is made by a European company, it complains to the EU. Its complaint is that Internet Explorer has an unfair competitive advantage over its own product because it comes with Windows, or it would be more accurate to say that it is a part of Windows. There are many problems with this complaint:
First, Firefox has an almost dominant position in the consumer market, disproving the advantage. This means that Opera is either deficient in comparison, or no one knows about it.
Second, Internet Explorer is the basis for the Windows UI, without it, there would be no windows in windows.
Third, without IE in windows, Opera would have 0 market share because no one could download it.
So, the problem, the owners of Opera are idiots who should spend their money on improving opera rather than filing frivalous claims against Microsoft with the EU.

[reate]

@Perry,

Yes, the bundling is the issue. Windows is a monopoly (as per competition law) and Microsoft must therefore follow certain rules, or risk punishment. Microsoft has repeatedly abused their monopoly to crush comepetition and to drive users from open solutions to proprietary technologies.

Their sub-standard browser is an example of this -- it will never be able to do what Microsoft's own Silverlight technology can do.

Opera has a good browser and the company does well when they can compete on equal terms. The PC platform is no such place, and EU is right in trying to restore competition.

[bershi]

@Acaykath

Opera does very well in the mobile space. You havn't tried opera mini?

[pithenumber]

@reate
Mozilla isn't complaining, Google isn't, not even Apple is comlaining about MS bundling IE, they just put more money into making a better browser, that is what Opera needs to do.
Opera is only worth using on mobile and Wii, it get pwn't by the competition on the PC platform, Safari and Chrome are fast, IE works with the most amount of site, FireFox has addons, Opera doesn't have any "Killer" feature.

[aka_tripleB]

How strapped for cash is the EU if they're now just complaining about this? And who do you go to to convict the EU with this crap they're pulling? Because the EU needs to be taken down a few notches and shown that they can't declare themselves the world's dictator.

[reate]

The European Commission is right in trying to restore compention in a market where one vendor has been terroizing users for too long.

In addition to web browsers, they should also look at operating system: make it easy for users to select a differernt OS by paying for hardware and software separately. If people had to pay for windows, many more would choose linux.

[kstjohn]

@reate

I don't your comment. Microsoft has been prohibited from forcing computer makers from bundling Windows only for years. Your complaint is with them, not Microsoft.

As a matter of fact, you can purchase a computer with Linux from many manufacturers today (Dell, HP, Asus, etc), so your argument is specious.

[pithenumber]

@reate
OEM's have been making Linux computers for quite a while, people still prefer Windows. You can save $40 on a Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu, but Windows is still more popular, I prove you wrong. Linux is awesome, but only those who are awesome enough can use it, most people aren't.

[onlyauser]

Sorry but Microsoft created this situation by years of unfair business practices. Now instead of the competition wondering how they will ever compete against a monopoly like the Windows OS bundled with Internet Explorer it is now Microsoft wondering how to remedy the legal stand the EU is making.

Looks like justice to me.

[SkippyDM]

Is the EU then going to make Apple stop bundling Safari with MacOS?

This isn't justice; this is the EU trying to receive fines by attempting to thread the needle the US Department of Justice couldn't do. The browser wars are over. Bundling browsers is commonplace in the development of operating systems--especially with the latest push towards cloud computing.

The Internet is so pervasive in computing that releasing an OS without one would be ridiculous.

[bershi]

Apple isn't a monopoly, Microsoft is.

Monopolies have to follow certain rules. Microsoft has repeatedly broken those rules. As a serial offender, they should have their browser chopped off.

[kstjohn]

@bershi

Apple has 95%+ of the market for operating systems on Apple hardware. They will not sell you another OS to run on that hardware. Sorry, but yes, they are a monopoly.

And just to cut you off at the pass, the Judge in US v Microsoft ruled that Apple computers are not in the same market as PC's running Windows (as silly as that seems).

[CrashPad63]

This is old news old hat. My god the EU is interested in one thing to levy fines against companies so they can line their pockets.

[reate]

The fine is insignificant -- both for EU and Microsoft.

What needs to change is that Microsoft is forced to support standards. Really. Not just say they do, but really do. That company has caused so much frustrations for web developers. Web developers have no choice but to code for IE and this upholds the Microsoft dominance.

[Nicholas Buenk]

This is dumb.
First of all, how are you supposed to even get an alternative web browser without using the one built into the OS.
And then, users want the OS to include basic software out of the box that's far easier. This is hurting consumers to help a few small browser companies.
Also, if Apple or Linux someday has a dominant market share, does Safari or Firefox suddenly become illegal?
Everyone bundles a browser these days, because it's what the end user needs!

[reate]

Windows could come with several browsers -- all standards-compliant -- that the user could choose from. Why should IE have a special position in a product most of us are forced to buy (windows)?

[tm_anon]

Apple runs on Apple hardware with Apple software. It's part of what keeps them small. If Apple had a larger market, they'd have to allow more than just their own OS to run if that OS has proven to run reliably on their hardware. As for Linux, no browser is tied in to the OS. My own distro in fact lists 10 other browsers through Synaptic Package Manager and makes those browsers easy to install and also makes Firefox easy to uninstall. Linux also does not saddle you with a single Windows Manager, in fact, there are 4 that I know of just off the top of my head. Linux has more than one media player built specifically for it and also many others which are suggested for certain scenarios. The fact of the matter is that Apple is too small for the EU and Linux is made to be completely fair and free for the consumer since it is, in fact, an OS built by and for the people.

[GraphiteCube]

That's how EU survive in recession: Sue big companies and get some money from them.

[reate]

You have no sense of scale. The fine that MS may have to pay is insignificant compared to what it costs to run an empire.

Personally, I hope EU doesn't ask for money at all, but concentrate on fixing the problem once and for all.

Splitting Microsoft in two parts (OS and applications) may be one solution.

[reate]

I'm very happy to see this move. The web is vital for mankind and we can't let one company terrorize us by force-feeding ignorant users the sub-standard IE browser. It takes an organization like the EU to step up to the challenge -- at least as long as George W Bush is in office.

Obama should pick up where Clinton started and take action againt Microsoft.

Meanwhile, EU is the right place for this. Go, EU!

[bershi]

Thank you, EU. You're a bit late, but -- finally, FINALLY -- someone takes on the bad guys on the block.

Microsoft has been terrorizing the web for years by (a) not supporting standards (b) only supporting parts of a standards (c) leaving important bugs unfixed (d) declaring those bugs to be features that can never be fixed.

Government intervetion is the only way to address this problem, I'm afraid. Microsoft has repeatedly refused to listen to big customers on this issue.

[medezark]

Name one single browser that supports all standards 100%. There isn't one!! And this isn't about standards conformance, it's about monopolistic practices.

[Deekman]

Who is really complaining here? Windows users? No. Windows competition? Yes. If the competition wants a bigger piece of the market, they need to make innovative products that are better than Microsoft's.

Microsoft has done more to push the improvement of content on the web with it's "non-standard" web browser than any other. Anyone ever heard of Ajax? Silverlight? SQL Server? MICROSOFT made these technologies, and built their browser to work with them. What's the last major leap in content provision that Firefox made? Opera? Microsoft has a right to include a web client that supports their backend and development platform. So what if it doesn't meet a standard? Advancing a standard is a long, difficult process that too many people have to agree to. Microsoft makes the advance, publishes it for use by their developers and users and the web is better because of it.

[ckurowic]

You really need to stop being a Microsoft fanboy, its not good for your love life. I'm seriously interested in why you love Microsoft so much. What kind of a person does it take for that to happen? In my age group (20's-30's) the vast majority of people insist on using Apple. This will change the face of the IT industry at some point I believe. Microsoft hasn't innovated anything Deekman. They lie, cheat, and steal their way to higher market share. Cut throat business practices, while legal, are very unethical to say the least. Microsoft has gotten to where they are now by unfairly destroying the competition through unscrupulous practices, not by innovating.

[pithenumber]

@ckurowic
Think about Silverlight from a developer's point of view. I think "Wow, I get a real language with Silverlight (C#), how innovative. Now Silverlight supports Linux with Moonlight, how awesome is that, they aren't just doing it to keep people on the Windows boat. I'm never going back to flash and using a scripting language again when I have this."
MS is very innovative.