Comments on: EU regulating Microsoft like it's 1999

The notion of bundling a browser into an operating system isn't new. But that hasn't stopped European regulators from delivering fresh objections.

[Einlanzerous]

Why is it every time Microsoft tries to add new features into Windows the lawyers get so excited? I don't see how it is fair that Linux and Apple are able to put whatever they would like into their system, and push their software on users as default. Yet if Microsoft does it, it's a mortal sin.

A clean install of Windows does not have any Windows programs set to default, Windows asks you what you want to do on just about anything you do, giving you a list of installed programs. Hell, IE is only the default on OEMs (and not even all of them), which they do to make it easier on the consumer. Most people ask all the time why Office is not included in Windows, and are quite displeased that it doesn't come with it. I can only imagine the headache for most people when they power up their computer and it can't play music, burn DVDs, connect to the internet, edit/view photos, access e-mail, or work with documents/spreadsheets/presentations.

People want these features in Windows, they ask for them. Hell, most people complain that it can't do enough, or do it well enough. The better Microsoft makes their OS, the more **** they have to hear for it. Just because they have the most marketshare doesn't mean they have to be gimped until the market is even. People buy what they want, no one makes them buy Windows PCs, all major OEMs offer Linux and Windows, and Apple is even available in Best Buy (Linux in netbooks). We're not a communist world, so this equality **** is a little backwards, if your product can't compete you can't just cry until the government makes everyone elses product work on the same level as yours (Except apparently in the EU).

Some of you may be surprised, but many people don't want choices. Many consumers can't tell you what they want in a computer, only that they want Word, internet, and e-mail. Microsoft addresses this, and gives them Windows Mail, Internet Explorer, and Microsoft Works Word Processor (Not allowed to have Word given any more). If people don't like that, Microsoft does nothing to stop you installing Star Office, Sleipnir/Firefox/Opera, or Google mail. It doesn't even force you to make it the default.

Microsoft gives advanced users the ability to do as they would please, but offers something for everyone to use from the getgo. I see nothing wrong with this. So most people will be satisfied with Windows and not add anything, so what, why do you think it's the primary OS, it gives you the complete solution out of the box.

Yes, in the late 90s, Microsoft made some rough choices, people accepted it. The Government fined the hell out of them, and Office is no longer part of Windows. The fact that Microsoft gets in trouble for their OS being too capable is just stupid.

It is obviously baised, when Apple doesn't get in trouble for not only doing the same things, but being monopolistic in another field, MP3 players. They actively force 3rd part companies to play ball with them, or deny them various partnership benifits. They only allow consumers to use iTunes, and even try to sneak in their browser and Mobile Me service through 'updates' for iTunes. Those of you complaining about IE security should be having a fieldday with Safari, given it was almost not allowed to work with Paypal given how incredibly unsecure it is. And lo'and behold but Safari isn't considered the weak spot in OSX as well.

The EU needs to stop forcing change where it is obviously not wanted (Windows XP N sales anyone?).

[davidwillisw]

if i was MS,i think now i would smile sweetly,look the eu bunch in the eye,and tell them to eat my shorts and pull every thing from europe! all new products and especially all suport of any kind! since all they seem to want to do is attack MS for all kinda of stupid non exsistant complaints! sad sad!

[davidwillisw]

ya know if it wasn't so sad it would be funny . think people ! those of you who rag on MS will always do so,no matter what they do !! you hate MS and that's all there is too it!! and remember not everyone has a cell phone so opera is not a requirement! i like firefox when i want lil toys and gadjets!! and those companies who can't match up to MS file complaints with the eu commision.thus endearing themself to the comission by giving them a reason to exist , to whine about and issue big fines cause there is nothing over there to match MS.if it's that much of a devil why hasn't opera and firefox taken over and shut MS out??

[sanenazok]

Oh Geez and why is everything more expensive in Europe? The sad part this is coming to the US...all those new czars and new departments. They'll need *something* to do so might as well go after productive companies that someone complains about. Welcome to administrative hell.

[AHassan5]

its about time the eu did something about microsoft and its crappy web browser.

there are some of you who dont understand why this is a serious issue:

microsoft provides the worst web browsers on the market through its popular windows operating system.

the only way users will/can discover about other browsers is by downloading them - it doesnt come bundled with the operating system.

this harms the future development of web browsers. improvements are made by developers based on user feedback.

i personally dont use internet explorer because it does not meet my basic requirements.

i am happy that the eu is involved in this matter and hope to see internet explorer removed from windows.

[pithenumber]

no, Safari is what I consider the worst, both for Windows and for Mac OS

[ldtiry]

Ok so the first thing I do when I purchase a computer is open IE and download Firefox. Now if Microsoft can't include IE in Windows what do I do to download a browser. I'm sure not going to go out and buy one when free ones are available and better. So then Microsoft provides a link to download IE for free. And IE is no longer bundled but still becomes the only browser option available. And the difference is.......Jack!!! Leave IE bundled because otherwise the average computer user is going to get a computer and not have access to the internet. Or OEM's are going to just install IE or Firefox(cause they're free) directly from the factory.

[reate]

When you open a new computer, it could simply ask you which browser you prefer. Several would be available for immediate use. This would ensure that Microsoft cannot dominate the web any longer -- the web is too important for one company to own.

[cheshirkat]

Lest we forget: Microsoft was found guilty in the antitrust trial in the United States.

[reate]

Indeed. But never punished. They should have had their browser chopped off.

[ferretboy88]

Tell the Euro Union to F off.

[Fil0403]

Ditto (and I'm from the "Euro Union").

[Fil0403]

I don't even argue the legal applicability of such a decision. You wanna unbundle IE from Windows (and make life harder to the millions of Windows users who will just have to make sure they buy the Windows version with IE or manually download and install their favourite browser - IE, of course - which just happens to be the best one too), fine, do it. That precedent (which actually already started with the decision of unbundling Windows Media Player from Windows) obviously means you will also have to unbundle Windows Explorer, Notepad, Paint, Calculator, WiFi Configurator, etc. from Windows, iTunes, Safari, iLife suite, etc. from Mac Mini, iMac, Mac Pro desktops, MacBook/MacBook Pro laptops, etc., Safari from iPhone, audio systems from every car, etc. Now is that what people want? In the end, I would say it all down to what the UE is for. If they exist to stand for people and customers, they will obviously let MS bundle whatever they want with Windows, so long it is free and anyone can change it and use an alternative application. If they are for the money as they show to be with all these antitrust issues with MS (unless someone can convince their obsession with the wealthiest company in the world is just a coincidence), then I guess we will soon be buying the NT kernel and having fun at home building our own OS for 1 year until it is usable. Now is that what people really want? Either way, one can only hope MS doesn't tell the UE to f*** off and stop distributing Windows in Europe. I'd like to see of they (we) would survive without it (and please don't Mac or Linux, really, I've laughed enough with some comments here already).
Oh, and just one more thing, for the sake of logic:

"Most people use IE merely because it comes with Windows, IE sucks, there are much better browsers." -> argument

IE market share as of December 2008 according to Net Applications (same source as article) = 68.15 %; 2nd place (Firefox) = 21.34 %. -> fact ~= people prefer IE ~= IE is the best browser

Against facts, there are no arguments, so stop whining and live with it (and be happy that MS lets you use competitor applications on their OS, don't push your luck).

People = human beings who want to use a PC with minimum trouble, without worrying or carying what company produces this or that application so long as they like it. Not morons who refuse to use a specific application just because it's produced by Microsoft.

[Qtechbg]

In my country about 80% or more of the population are smokers. Does that "fact" make cigarettes healthy???
Actualy the morons are those who prefer the slowest and the most flawed browser ever just because it is bundled with their OS. This way Micro$oft could push any crap they want into user space and they will get away with it as long as there are People equal to human beings who want to use a PC with minimum thinking. I'm sorry this is not a TV, it is a PC - you have to make such choices or pay the price...

[dennisl59]

I object to the EU...a group of MORONIC Bureaucrats doing anything to attempt to justify their employment as Tools of the Socialist Dictatorships. If they were to disappear today, without notice, would anyone notice?

[sting7k]

So where is the lawsuit against Apple for including Safari on OS X?

IE is a free program, Opera is free. Nothing is stopping people from simply ignoring IE on their start menu and downloading Opera or what ever they want.

[reate]

Hassle is stopping people from downloading and using other browsers.

FIrst, you need to know that other browsers are out there. Then, you need to download them. Then, when you use them you will run into pages that are written for IE and only works in IE. Browsers that support standards -- the good guys -- are punished.

Microsoft should be forced to do standards correctly. Only EU has the power and the will to do this.

[facepunch32]

why do apple fans like msslayer and penguinisto spend so much time running around slinging trash at a system they dont use......insecure much....bet these two are lives of the party outside the old cnet chats....

[X-C3PO]

Only about $, no advantage to consumers.
Since no any leading company in EU, and now it's critical time in economy, so I believe it's a good time to make $ by sue all US companies, MS, Google, Intel, Apple, etc.
Each company pay 1 billion EU$, at least can make 5 billion EU$. EU have good accounting that what I only believe,

[DoohanOK]

Seriously Microsoft should just pull out of the European market altogether. What will they ***** about them when they have to import the software under Microsofts' terms? Seriously who even uses IE any more? I hate it and always have.

[reate]

Microsoft is making way too much money selling software in Europe that they would even consider pulling out. They have a monopoly to maintain, and even this case is just a small distraction.

EU should also consider breaking up the Windows monopoly by forcing users to buy hardware and the operating system separately. If uses saw the real cost of Windows, there wouldn't be many users left.

[buj8068]

"EU should also consider breaking up the Windows monopoly by forcing users to buy hardware and the operating system separately. If uses saw the real cost of Windows, there wouldn't be many users left."

Ditto for Apple Macs.

[rshimizu12]

It's really great that the EU is going after IE. I just wish the USDOJ had more gut's to impose harsher sanctions on MS during the anti-trust case. The consent decree should have been much longer considering how blatantly monopolistic MS is.

Microsoft tries to claim IE is standards compliant and then you discover some website that gives you a requires IE or other MS plugin. During the install process there needs to be a option to install the browser of your choice.

[maverick_nick]

Let's say that the EU gets Microsoft to remove IE from Windows. Now you buy a copy of Windows (not OEM) and install it on your PC. So you need a browser - download it? Well you'd need a browser for that wouldn't you?

[reate]

You don't need a browser to download a browser, no.

It's trivial to put several browsers onto the Windows distribution so that users would have a choice from the beginning. If no browser is present, it's trivial to download sofware without a browser. Both Linux and WIndows do it every day.

[reate]

@dhavleak

Micorosoft has broken the law that says you cannot use a monopoly (Windows in this case) in one area to create a domniant position in another area (web browsers). They have done so knowingly for years, and should be punished for it.

EU's case is just and Windows users around the world stand to gain from a ruling.

[shusseina2]

This article is completely bias, in favour of Microsoft. Tech history shows that Microsoft abused it market power to snuff out Netscape and once it controlled the browser market it stopped innovating. The proof being that the final release of IE6 came out in 2001 and the final release of IE7 came out over FIVE years later!

It is interesting that the browser with the most market share is the browser that is poorest at adhering to web standards.

The only reason that Microsoft is no longer playing hard ball is because it can't; the EU won't let it and the offerings from its main competitor, Google, are Net-based rather than Windows-based products.

The Opera browser has always been very innovative.

Competition is good, America. Imagine if there was no competition in the North American car market.

[buj8068]

Good point. I would like to see Apple open up its OS to be installed on other hardware. Competition is good. Why not?

[ForumsReader]

After reading some forums about the new EU anti-IE case I am again reminded how persistent the Netscape myth is. The myth that Microsoft "killed" Netscape just because of the bundling with Windows 98.

This is blatant revisionism. The fact of the matter is that IE 4 was the much better browser at the time. It was more standard compliant than Netscape, faster and had less bugs. The marketshare was going towards IE long before the Windows 98 release (middle of 1998)

Here are some old articles:


---------------

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-203884.html

Published: October 3, 1997 5:00 PM PDT

"Microsoft (MSFT) said today that more than 1 million copies of its
Internet Explorer 4.0 Web browser have been downloaded since it was
released Tuesday night.

The company said that number set a record demand for any Microsoft
product in this amount of time. The figure does not include downloads
from 20 partner sites that also offer IE 4.0, the company added.

The more than 1 million downloads amounted to at least six copies per
second.

Traffic to Microsoft's Web site had been surging as the
much-anticipated release date neared. On September 30 alone, the
company recorded 1.5 million visits to the site. Microsoft also
reiterated that 200,000 people had ordered IE 4.0 on CD-ROM.

Although Microsoft said it has increased the capacity of its Web
servers, users have complained about congestion and busy signals at
the Web site. The company boosted its site's download capacity to 6.1
terabytes, which would allow about 450,000 browser downloads a day, a
spokeswoman said. However, throughout this week, the site was jammed
with traffic from users looking for the software, many unable to get
in.

Internet Explorer 4.0, released Tuesday after five months of beta
testing, is Microsoft's attempt to make the browser wars irrelevant.
By building IE 4.0 into Windows, Microsoft hopes to make the browser
just another utility that comes with the operating system. That
integration won't truly happen until Microsoft ships Windows 98 next
year, but the release of IE 4.0 for Windows 95 is a major step in
that direction.

Netscape Communications dominates the browser market, but Microsoft
thinks IE 4.0 will give it more than a 50 percent market share.

A survey of 279 corporate users released earlier this week by Zona
Research shows Netscape's Navigator remains the leading browser with
a 62 percent share, compared with a 36 percent share for Microsoft's
IE. Explorer's share has risen to 36 percent from 3 percent in the
past 18 months, the survey shows.

"



----


Had to cut the comment in two parts because of the 5000 characters limit in this forum part 2 is the next post...

[ForumsReader]

Part 2:


http://web.archive.org/web/20010622043005/http://content.techweb.com/wire/news/1997/10/1003downloads.html

"IE 4: One Million Downloads On Day 1

(10/03/97; 5:00 p.m. EDT)

REDMOND, Wash. -- Microsofts Internet Explorer 4.0 is off to a huge
start. In the first 24 hours of availability, the company reports
more than one million copies have been downloaded from its home page,
an average of one download every 6 seconds.
The numbers are all the more remarkable given IE 4.0s size. The
browser-only version is 13 megabytes (MB), the standard version,
which offers the desktop integration, is 16 MB, and the full version
is 25 MB. With a modem speed of 28.8 kilobytes per second, the
standard for home users, the Web-only download can take 1.5 hours,
and the full version can take more than 3 hours. Partly for that
reason, perhaps, more than 200,000 people have preordered the CD for
$4.95. Microsoft began shipping the CDs this week.

The one-million-downloads figure covers only copies downloaded from
Microsoft.com. It does not include downloads from the more than 20
mirror sites or the preordered CDs. To prepare for the flood,
Microsoft had to arrange for several terabytes of download bandwidth,
according to a Microsoft official at the San Francisco launch on
Tuesday night.

More than 10 terabytes of data have been sent out from the Microsoft
domain, according to Kevin Unangst, product manager for Internet
Explorer at Microsoft. The downloads are a mixture of browser-only,
standard, and full-install, according to Unangst. Microsoft has not
recorded whether the downloads are by corporate users or home users
and won't know until more analysis of its logs, probably some time
next week.

Microsoft capped off its launch on Tuesday with a little prank. A
10-by-12 foot rendering of the "e" logo in Internet Explorer --
prominently placed on the floor of the warehouse during the launch --
was left at the front door of arch-nemesis Netscape Communications,
in Mountain View, Calif. A group of people were seen dropping off the
prop around 1:30 in the morning, according to a Netscape
spokesperson. A card on the giant "e" read, "From the IE team."

Still, Netscape had the last laugh. Company employees put their
12-foot mascot Mozilla, a green Godzilla-like foam creature on top of
the prop with a card that read "Netscape 72, Microsoft 18" -- a
reference to recent market share numbers. But Netscape's
counter-pranksters must not have seen the recent numbers from Zona
Research, in Redwood City, Calif., which said Navigator has 62
percent of the market to IEs 36 percent share. "





--------------


The firefox fans hype themselves over with their download record of 8 million downloads, but the 1 million download record for IE4 was much more impressive, considering how few people were online back then and that almost all of them were on dial up.

Let's not to forget, that the nickname for Netscape was "Netscrap" here is a typical website of that period:

http://guymcarthur.com/resources/articles/netscapesucks.xml

Another archeological gem is the alt.netscape.sucks newsgroup and its cousin alt.netscape.buggy-products:

NS4's adventures with CSS:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.netscape.sucks/search?hl=en&group=alt.netscape.sucks&q=css

A "christmas celebration":

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.netscape.buggy-products/browse_thread/thread/a935f11652ee2c/145c05acea711843?hl=en

---


"Great christmas! The monster is down to 4%

Yes, christmas holidays brought the lowest evers of
NutScrap 4 usage in the net.

For several hours of the day, a computation of
hourly statistics of TheCounter.com showed
a usage near 2.5%


Look at it!
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2001/December/browser.php


The bug monster has nearly no fans anymore.


No one with his mind straigt does anymore waste time for
work arounds to satisfy the strage bug monster."

-----

It's incredible how fast people forget. IE 4 was something like Firefox is today and Netscape 4 was worse than IEXPLORE 6 is now. It's almost sickening that the true IE-Netscape story is completely twisted today and Netscape is shrouded in a veil of bravery and mysticism.