Comments on: EU regulating Microsoft like it's 1999

The notion of bundling a browser into an operating system isn't new. But that hasn't stopped European regulators from delivering fresh objections.

[unknown unknown]

Can we just EU off on software already? They cause nothing but problems.

[Jim1900]

I trust MS will charge 25 Euros more for an OS with the browser. Any government that comes out with a ruling that stupid should be subsidizing U.S. companies.

[Vegaman_Dan]

I don't see Apple's name in the complaint. That's odd since Safari comes as part of every OS X installation as well. Just because it's not as popular doesn't remove the fact that it is included with the installation and qualifies for the same treatment that the EU is giving to Microsoft.

This pick and choose mentality of the EU is really getting old. I wonder if Microsoft can sue the EU for discrimination? They might have a case there. And then when the EU laughs, start charging a $10 million fine daily until they correct the issue. Yes, I know it's silly, but that is what the EU does to Microsoft so it only seems fair. What's good for Microsoft should be good for the EU as well.

What does the EU actually *DO* these days? One of the common complaints from Eurpoean EU members is that all that money from fines that the EU gets doesn't actually make it to the EU members. There's all sorts of 'administrative costs' involved and amazingly, there isn't any money left over to give to those EU member countries. HUH. Very.... interesting. I'm sure it's just a coincidence and the EU wouldn't be doing anything illegal, immoral, or unethical. Nope, it's just a coincidence.

So, I have this bridge in Brooklyn that the EU might be interested in...

[MSSlayer]

You can completely remove Safari from OSX. All you can do in Windows is hide IE shortcuts.

[CNET editor's note: Personal attack removed.]

[Lerianis]

MSSlayer..... no, you cannot 'totally remove Safari from OSX'. I've tried, on my friends computers.... it doesn't remove.

[Penguinisto]

Apple = Hardware - hardware companies operate under different rules. I pay for OSX, Safari, etc when I buy a Mac. Apple does not prevent me from uninstalling OSX from an Apple computer and replacing it with Linux, Windows, or what-have-you.

Windows = Software. Software companies operate under their own regulations.

To top that off, the EU isn't complaining about the fact that they are together, but are complaining about the fact that Microsoft is abusing one monopoly (Windows) to build another (IE).

IOW, your argument is dumb, my dear MSFT employee.

/P

[opiapr]

This is not the EU caring about EU browser user. This is the same old EU trying to make easy money from an American company...

[reate]

The size of previous fines has been insignificant, both for Microsoft and the EU.

Why doesn't Microsoft just follow the law?

[yacahuma]

this is a bunch of bull. I am not a MS lover. But another this is another lawsuit , say goodbay to more US jobs. If they dont like it, but someting else.

[reate]

This is not a lawsuit. This is government regulation, which sometimes is needed.

[Akiba]

I don't want the government regulating software like this. The drawbacks are far greater than the benefits. The price of freedom to create products is that organizations can leverage their own products for their own interests. Does this mean notepad has to go as well? It probably has a better marketshare than IE.

[reate]

Governments should get involved in important matters. We do want there to be roads, and we want there to be traffic regulations. Likewise, we do want digital highways and we do want a basic set of standards to be followed on those highways.

Saying that governements shouldn't be involved is like saying GM should own the highway system.

[JuggerNaut]

It's a sad reality, but that was the only reason Internet Explorer beat Netscape Navigator in the first place. People are not going to pay for a web browser when they can get one free and they're certainly (well at least back in those days) download one when they got one already installed.

If the shoe had been on the other foot; like Netscape Navigator being bundled with Windows and Internet Explorer costing the user $29.99 (more or less or even free download), then Netscape Navigator would reign supreme today and Internet Explorer would have been stuffed in the Redmond vault alongside Microsoft Bob collecting cyber dust.

[bensobel]

OpenOffice has been free from day 1 and companies would rather buy MS Office.

[Lerianis]

That's because MS Office is simply better than OpenOffice. I've tried both, and I've stuck with MS Office because it is simply better by far than OpenOffice.

[Penguinisto]

"OpenOffice has been free from day 1 and companies would rather buy MS Office."

Artificial barriers prevent complete compatibility (MSFT's filespecs are closed and intentionally munged for precisely this reason). Once those barriers are gone, the rest will be history.

[JuggerNaut]

@bensobel

I actually use both MS Office and OpenOffice (including NeoOffice) at work and they both have their strengths and weaknesses. The things that ail MS Office don't ail OpenOffice and vice versa. One thing that sucks about MS Office is that it's too expensive as compared to other office suites and as the saying goes; 90% of MS Office users only use 10% of the feature set versus the other 10% that might use 90% of the features. The BIGGEST thing that is aggravating with MS Excel is the lack of maintaining RTF while doing Find & Replace and Excel has been out since the mid-80s; Apple's own iWork spreadsheet called Numbers has been maintaining RTF doing Find & Replace since version 1.0. I have other MS Office complaints, but that one always sticks to my mind!

[mickeymjay]

If they go after MS for including an browser, then they should also go after Apple since they bundle a browser with Mac OS.

I honestly think the EU has nothing better to do. MS has made those N versions of Vista and I am sure N versions of Windows 7. MS has even removed windows mail and a few other programs from Windows 7 to please the different government agencies. MS can't win for doing there best.

[Seaspray0]

They did make the versions and nobody in europe wanted them. The EU is not in touch with reality

[NickH]

@Seaspray0

Yeah, no one wanted the N version.

I'm really not trying to defend the EU here, but their job is only to ensure consumers have a choice, but not make that choice for them.

The commission acknowledge that there was customer benefit in Microsoft supplying a free media player, and I think they will acknowledge there is benefit in an OS shipping with a default browser too.

Back when the N edition of Windows was ordered, it was clear no one would buy it, and frankly I wondered why Microsoft didnt see the writing on the wall, and unbundle IE at the same time. Also, request a dialog with the Commission to explore any other items that might be contentious, and get those unbundled too. (Is Silverlight shipped with the OS? - thats sure to be the next think someone complains about).

Now, they face more orders from the commission, and I can't help but think the commission will this time go further, and order something that Microsoft really won't like. Ironically, the very success of Firefox might be the one thing that saves Microsoft from something truely harsh.

[jtlevin]

@Penguinisto
You're joking right? Apple not a monopoly? You can't install apple's OS on hardware other than it's hardware. No one else is allowed to make hardware for apple products. It is the most monopolistic hardware/software vendor in the world.
Opera wouldn't think to sue Apple - they don't have as much money as Microsoft but the default browser (tied to the OS) is Safari. Go figure! By that logic the EU should be investigating Apple as well but they aren't.
Anyway, Opera's browser is terrible.

[Penguinisto]

You must be kidding.

Please, tell us what percentage of the computer market is owned by Apple globally.

When you're done with that, kindly go educate yourself about this industry we all play in.

[Seaspray0]

@penguin. I can tell you what percentage of the mp3 player market apple owns and it does make them a monoply.

[Penguinisto]

...and if/when Apple ever abuses their PMP monopoly in any way, you're more than free to complain to the EU. Otherwise, it doesn't jump industries, much as you would wish otherwise. ;)

[Tod Smith]

That B.S.

Microsoft is going to make office .NET.

I never here anything about EA or Nintendo.

[t8]

I personally think that Microsoft should be an OS only.
And customers should be free to choose what programs or program packs they want from whatever company, e.g., Google Pack.

Then the OS would run faster, be more secure, and customers would have more choice, and there wouldn't be ongoing abuses from Microsoft.

[ranpha]

And how do you download Google Pack without a browser?

[reate]

EU's case will likely benefit web standards. Part of Opera's complaint was that IE has been sabotaging web standards for years, and that the web has suffered as as result. Look at how authors write pages -- they test for IE first and foremost. With such a monopoly, it's hard for standards to succeed. Of course, this is to Microsoft's advantage -- they'd rather give you their shiny new silverlight.

[pithenumber]

then make IE the standard and have everyone else comply.

[bershi]

Yes, the browser is vital. That's why Microsoft should be forced to ship a standards-compliant browser. The EU case may have that effect -- Opera has been pushing standards for years.

[doxadog]

It is "EU regulating Microsoft as if it were 1999." How about a little English if you are writers.

[Qtechbg]

Maybe you should consider the Browser War history more carefully before judging Opera or EU.
First, let me remind you that Windows Explorer did NOT require Internet Explorer back in time (in Windows 9x age), until Micro$oft shipped IE4 and made it an integral part. This, combined with their Active Desktop feature made the OS even more unstable and vulnerable. Some major virus outbrakes were possible only because IE was too tight with the OS and gave too much control at some point. Yes, M$ corrects the vulnerabilities as soon as possible, but they do not compensate users for their lost data.
Opera filled their first lawsuit against M$ back when their browser was NOT free (was ad/shareware). It wasn't a joke for them it was a desperate act to save their BUSYNESS. Fortunately the ad model did proove good enough to sustain and help evolve the company.
IE5 and 6 have standarts on their own. Ask any web developer how much M$ "loves" DHTML. The repercussions are still seen nowdays in most sites - additional CSS, more development time and testing => greater costs. Guess who is paying for all that too? Hopefully M$ will correct IE's compatibility in the 8th version.

Bottom line is - it is NOT free. We pay alot for having IE integrated: expensive A/V suites, lost data (e.g. when those suits fail beause M$ did screw/hide something), more expensive web sites and who knows - it might be even included in the OS price. I don't say IE should be removed completely and that will be a mistake in this Internet era. They could simply include a stripped down version, that allows you to open a download site for example, from which point you could choose and install your browser.

BTW, Opera is a finnish browser, while IE is made in USA. Guess why Bush' administration preffers the latter ;)

[pithenumber]

free AV that works, IE is free

IE is the standard no matter what people call "standard"

MS's illegal business tactics with IE and countless other issues has caused great harm to society. Anything the EU has done in the past or potentially can with this new case pales in what should be done to apply true justice to MS. I, therefore, have declared that pirating MS products is not illegal. I have saved 1,000 of users untold amount of $'s since the 90's by not paying a single cent for MS desktop and server OS's since DOS and Windows 3.1. i.e. I don't even know what it is to activate a MS product, never did it. One of my clients is a non-profit and I've used the VLM keys they received repeatedly. If MS wants to force inferior products upon my users with a higher cost of ownership than the alternatives MS refuses to follow standards with, then so be it. The money saved by not paying MS is applied toward those costs incurred by MS illegal activities.

[tundraboy]

Anything to stop Microsoft from abusing its monopoly power is okay by me.

With any other crime, the convicted criminal is forced to disgorge the fruits of his criminal behavior. Microsoft was convicted of criminal behavior when it killed Netscape and established a monopoly in browsers. And yet the Bushies let them keep this illegally obtained monopoly? Since when does a person steal a car, get convicted for car theft and yet gets to keep the stolen car?

So I say set all the dogs on Microsoft until they behave like model corporate citizens.

[rossking]

on apple hardware OS X is a complete monopoly, 100% of machines sold come with OS X installed and safari. Sure you can install bootcamp and then install Windows but then you have to pay for the os, that cant be fair (I joke).

Just because there ar more Windows machines in the world should't force microsoft to comply with extra rules that Linux, Unix, OS X also do not have to comply with.

If you do not like Explorer then install linux and dont use it.

Nothing stops you from installing the other free browsers, you can remove the icons for ie, you can set another as the default browser. They have done enough.

Mabey if Real player and other competitors ddin;t install all kinds of other background crap more people would install and use.

[sunderx]

Lets say that the EU does force MS to sell say Windows 7 with out a built in browser and no installed version of IE. Then lets see how many of those people who have that version of windows can figure out how to get a copy of Firefox, Opera, or Chrome or even IE8 downloaded so it can be installed on their machine.

[reate]

EU should force Microsoft to include several browsers in Windows so that users have a choice.

[Rahsut]

i don't understand how a company makes money off of a browser, even if opera gets its browser shipped on pcs they wont make any more money than before will they?

[reate]

Browsers make money by forming relationships with search engines. Most of Mozilla's revenues come from Google.