Comments on: EU objects to browser in Windows

European regulators say they believe software giant is violating that region's antitrust laws by bundling its Internet Explorer browser in Windows.

[getwired]

<FACEPALM>

Give me a break.

[sweetchinmusic]

Seriously Opera?

I love the Opera browser and I think its fantastic. They've had better features than even Firefox for a long time. But seriously, you (Opera) need to come up with better marketing strategies rather than use the Microsoft-hating-EU-commission to try to unbundle IE from Windows. Lets face it - if IE does get unbundled, given the current market share and popularity, Firefox will probably be the one people download, or Chrome... not Opera. By the way, I hope you won't go after Apple and ask for Safari to be unbundled too! Wake up Opera, and do something constructive, because, like I said, you have a very good browser.

[rage-demon]

Can someone please tell me how you're supposed to download an internet browser IF YOU DON"T HAVE A WAY TO BROWSE THE INTERNET?! We'll all have to start buying Firefox on CDs at the store. I mean seriously, this is beyond stupid. What next? "Comet Cusror applauds the EU's antitrust lawsuit over Windows bundling of a mouse pointer..." then what, keyboard support?? (Yes, i know keyboard support is motherboard based, but i'm just making a point at how idiotic this whole thing is.)

And seriously, how is any of this different than what Apple does?

The worst part about this is that there are many computer illiterate people who would have no idea what to do. If you tell them they have to get their own browsers or media players, how would they know which ones to get to ensure a safe, stable, and compatible operating environment?

[b3nw]

" Opera also alleged Microsoft made interoperability difficult but forgoing accepted open Web standards."

typo? by forgoing?

[Sausagebiscuit]

careful pointing out typos, I got bashed big time for doing it in another article! lol. Honestly, however, good catch!

[russkeller]

Well the Monopoly bought the US DoJ now they need to buy the EU,. Big deal they can afford it.

[Lerianis]

Microsoft does not have a monopoly because they bought the US DoJ, and they don't really have a monopoly at all. The only reason they are the biggest person out there in terms of OS's is: 1. They have no real competition, 2. Apple won't compete against them in reality, 3. Linux is too hard for people to learn, and 4. Windows XP, Vista, 7 have 'built a better mousetrap' or OS as the case may be.

[eadeguzman]

That's ok... as long as the EU will mandate all OS makers to not include a browser.

EU simply doesn't understand it. There are some configurations and tools on the Windows or other OS that can only be managed through a web browser... How about setting up your router for example?

In that case, you need to download FireFox to access your router.. but wait, you don't have Internet connection yet!

[rapier1]

I'd love to see how people would react to the EU requiring Apple not to include Safari.

[smilin:)]

rapier1 you have the best post here.

[FireFox_User]

LOL... rapier1... good one. Just wish that the Mac fan-boys won't tried to track you down. Their god father is now leave of absence and they need someone like you to spend their energy...

LOL

[chris_d]

Fine with me. I don't use Safari anyway. And if I wanted to, I could download it.

[chris_d]

Microsoft should just give up. Their browser is years behind everything else out there. They're dragging the whole internet down... but maybe that's the point. Maybe they think that if they make a browser that's just barely good enough, people won't switch browsers, and that will make advanced web apps less attractive, which certainly benefits Microsoft. If Javascript performance keeps improving, how are they going to push windows-centric stuff like activex and silverlight? Their aim seems to be keeping as many users as possible on a browser that's dog slow for anything more than a simple web page.

[karpenterskids]

That's not true at all...Internet Explorer is a VERY decent browser.
(Definitely beats Opera, at the very least)

[DrtyDogg]

I like IE, on a fresh install it gives me an easy way to get chrome and firefox.

[jmfb_k7]

Hey, I was doing some research and I noticed Microsoft also includes a Logical Disk Manager service that mounts hard drives. I think this seriously undermines the software programmers trying to market their own disk managment services. They should sue Microsoft for it.


In the end, windows will only be able to be a DOS, as including any other services doesnt give people a fair chance of marketing their B.S.

[Throgged]

lol, this made me chuckle.
agreed btw

[Penguinisto]

Simple rules, folks. You want to play in the EU, you get to abide by their rules. Don't like it? Deal with it.

The OEM can drop-in whatever browser they want, and it would skirt the whole issue.

Either way? Their sandbox, their rules. If MSFT doesn't like it, they can leave at any time.

[ranpha]

If other OSes is not subjected to the same rules, then Microsoft can go to Court of First Instance and demolish the antitrust suit.

It is nice for everyone to play by the same rules, but one rule for Microsoft and another rule for Linux/OSX/BSD, that will not be acceptable.

This is EU that makes consumers pay more money as a consequence of their BSkyB antitrust suit, thus I will never believe in them.

[dhavleak]

Penguin -- easy on the celebration there.. you might hurt yourself doing cartwheels..

[Penguinisto]

I merely think it amusing.

Also, there is only one rule, and "other OSes" actually adhere to it; Apple skirts it by selling hardware (which puts them in a different industry entirely), and by not embedding Safari into OSX to the point where removal would cripple the OS itself. If they included Firefox, they'd be all set. Linux adheres to the rule nicely by offering the user a wide number of browser choices during installation.

[dhavleak]

No really -- stop trying to mask your glee...

[Vegaman_Dan]

The problem with your comments, Penguinisto, is that that those same rules the EU is using do not apply fairly to all parties.

Windows comes with IE bundled.

OS X comes with Safari bundled.

Unless the EU goes after Apple for doing the exact same thing, then they have a doublestandard and it's one that Microsoft can toss at the EU for unfair trade practices. They could even point at Google's Chrome as being bundled with other Google products, or that Quicktime comes bundled with iTunes. There's a lot of bundling going on out there and the EU's decision to go after one company for what is commonplace in the industry today smacks of their targeted agenda against Microsoft.

The OEM can drop whatever they want in the machines now. But the box sales of the OS do not have that option. OS X doesn't either.

It could be considered discrimination. There's all sorts of ways to look at this and not a single one of them benefits anyone other than the EU itself.

Your agument about Apple getting around the issue by selling OS X with the hardware- you just shot your own argument right there. OS X come *BUNDLED* with the hardware. Yes, that's right, you don't get a choice of Linux, Windows, or any other OS other than OS X when you power up that Mac. See, that's the argument the EU has right there and you've just demonstrated it perfectly why it doesn't work.

Please don't try using the hardware argument again- it's been busted.

[eadeguzman]

I might be completely wrong, but it sure looks like another attempt by the EU to milk yet again another successful US company.

Not sure if Google or Apple should celebrate on this...

[Lerianis]

I have to agree. The fact is that, in totally opposition to Penguinisto's remarks, some rules are not sane, not salient, and should have never been passed in the first place.
This ruling against Microsoft is one of them, to be blunt. They are expecting Microsoft to deal by different rules than everyone else, and it's time for that to stop and realize that there is nothing wrong with Microsoft including their own web browser, media player, etc. in the OS.
If people REALLY want a different on...... they will find a way to get on the internet and get a different one, as I did!
I love Microsoft products.... but I'll still say that there are better media players than Windows Media Player out there, KMPlayer to be specific.
Same thing for IE7/8,...... Firefox and Chrome are somewhat better than them right now, so I use BOTH those latter two right now (seeing which is faster in day to day use and more secure).

[arbulus]

I simply cannot get behind this at all. I do not see any issue with bundling a browser. EVERY operating system does. Why aren't they going after Apple or Linux vendors?

People need browsers. Even if you don't want to use IE, you have to have a browser to get to the web to download another browser. Browsers aren't sold in stores and you cannot get a browser without downloading it. So how are you going to download it if you don't have one to begin with?

To be honest, this is a ridiculous hold over from the Netscape battle, and it's time it ended. I have no problem with ANY bundled software in my OS. Just give me an easy way to remove it so I can if I don't want it. Windows 7 already isn't going to include Mail, Photo Galery, Movie Maker, etc. by default.

If the EU is going to do this, then they need to crack down on Apple as well. The Mac OS has not only a browser, but iLife, including iTunes, Quicktime, iMovie, iPhoto, iWeb preinstalled. How is that any different than including IE? It's unbalanced.

Seriously, governments need to move into the modern era where most people realize that there are options out there and couldn't really care less if their OS has bundled software.

[Penguinisto]

"Why aren't they going after Apple or Linux vendors? "

* Linux distros give you a wide variety of choice as to which browser you want - you can pick it (or as many as you like) during install (Opera, Firefox, Konqueror, Netscape Navigator, Flock, Dillo, links, and a few more I can't recall off the top of my head...)

* Apple sells computers (as in, the whole package), not operating systems. Expand your sales to the entire box (hardware+software), and the rules are different due to the fact that you're selling an all-in-one solution, not just a piece of it (which is what MSFT does by selling only Windows). This is a poorly-translated jist of the laws mind, but it should suffice.

* Oh, and neither Apple nor RedHat (or any other Linux distro) have ever gone around and threatened OEMs with price hikes (or conversely, withdrawal of "marketing" funds) if the OEM refuses to reject the idea of installing competing web browsers.

[tm_anon]

Also, when's the last time you tried to remove IE completely from a Windows installation? I know with XP it was next to impossible to do anything but remove the icon from the desktop. The most I could ever get is an IE that would still run but with addons removed. With Linux, I can remove the browser completely if I feel like it. With Apple, as was stated by Penguinisto, they're marketed as an all-in-one solution. Show me a machine built by MS with MS technologies and I'll show you a company that can dictate what browsers are preinstalled on its own software. If Windows was not forced on computers who simply wish to buy a computer, the browser issue would most likely be dropped. Customers would be choosing a complete software installation and not just living with it. Yet another reason the EU doesn't dictate to Linux distros what can and cannot be bundled with their software is the very nature of a Linux distro. Nobody is dictating what can and cannot be installed. The very nature of Linux is choice. Don't like the Windows management software? Change it to something you like. Don't like the browser? Change it. Don't like anything about your OS? Change it.

[eferron]

Penguinisto,

Have you or anyone actually removed Safari from OSX? No really have you done it?

[Lerianis]

eferron, right in one. I will say for the record, confirmed by a person I know who uses Mac computers..... SAFARI CANNOT BE REMOVED TOTALLY!
It is still on that hard drive somewhere even after you remove it, and will automatically be re-installed if the OS realizes "Hey, this person doesn't have a web browser!"

[m_gol]

@ Penguinisto
"* Linux distros give you a wide variety of choice as to which browser you want"
Really? Try Ubuntu. Firefox is installed by default and there is no way to install Opera without Medibuntu repositories. There is no way to install another browser instead during the installation process.

Is there anything wrong about it? No, anybody can install any browser using repositories (and no browser is needed for that process ;)).

"* Apple (...) and the rules are different due to the fact that you're selling an all-in-one solution, not just a piece of it"
Apple doesn't sell all-in-one solution, it does not offer me a flat where I can put my computer, they do not offer me the place where I can get electric current. This is just part of the solution!
Don't be funny, in this way You can explain everything.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Penguinsto wrote:

"* Apple sells computers (as in, the whole package), not operating systems. Expand your sales to the entire box (hardware+software), and the rules are different due to the fact that you're selling an all-in-one solution, not just a piece of it (which is what MSFT does by selling only Windows). This is a poorly-translated jist of the laws mind, but it should suffice. "

Your agrument would be valid if Apple also included a copy of Windows, Linux, BSD, Irix, and every other OS on the planet in the box with that Apple product to give you a choice of which OS you wanted on that hardware. However they don't, they *BUNDLE* the OS X OS with the hardware. The EU's complaint about bundling applies here as well.

You're right, however.... your comments are a poorly translated gist and demonstrates you don't actually have a complete handle on the situation. It's a good attempt, but flawed.

[Seaspray0]

@penquinisto. Actually apple does sell operating systems. They sold them to pystar. Or you can make the argument that they sell operating systems and bundle the hardware with it. The "apple is a hardware company" can be challenged.

[contentcreator--2008]

The EU's approach does not make sense. By the same logic you could force the unbundling of every user-level application in Windows--- Notepad, Paint, Media player, calculator, sound recorder, all the games, ... That certainly would not benefit any consumers I know. Meanwhile, Microsoft's main competitor is adding as many bundled applications into their operating system as possible.

[DrtyDogg]

they already did media player, see the wildly unsuccessful Windows XPN.

[Seaspray0]

If they try to make them unbundle notepad, I'll fight to the bitter end!

[eBob1]

Stripping out IE entirely from Windows is not that simple. The browser is so embedded as part of the OS that taking it out would also wipe out vital parts of it. Also, if there is no browser included with the OS, how is one to download a different browser? I could by using FTP, but most non-technical computer users are not going to know how to do that.

[DrtyDogg]

Don't forget to mention the massive amount of 3rd party program incompatibilities.

[iertry]

If they don't bundle the browser how are users supposed to get on the web to download a browser? OEM's would therefore have to bundle browsers with European PC's. I think anyway.

[karpenterskids]

EXACTLY...I visited this article just to say the exact same thing: How are you going to go download something if you don't have a browser in the first place?!

And a lot of people who buy computers (read: grandmothers/grandfathers) wouldn't know where to download another browser if their life depended on it. It's just so much easier to have a small "Internet Explorer" icon on the desktop when you purchase your system.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Isn't it obvious? You simply use the AOL CD. :)

[larsenje]

Every OS comes with a browser by default... A computer is a tool and should be treated as such. This rule makes as much sense as forcing Dewalt to not put a 10" blade inside their 10" table saw because it infringes upon saw blade manufacturers ability to compete with Dewalt.

It is a stupid thing to do and the EU is stupid for doing it.

[noota]

There's only one company having a monopoly for far too long at the home user desktops.
Monopolies should not be possible for too long, it endangers real innovation, and choice for the end user.
Glad to see this is happening.
I'm looking forward to see more choice than just MS Windows pre installed on personal computers.

[Lerianis]

noota, the reason there is 'no choice' is because Linux (the only REAL competitor to Windows on PC's) is too technical for the normal user.
It's time for people like you, who apparently have their heads up their butts, to realize that and simply live with it. Microsoft has won the OS wars, period and done with. It's time to stop punishing them for building the better mousetrap, and realize that you are being totally unfair towards Microsoft.

[Perry_Clease]

is the EU having a problem bundling the browser WITH or bundling it IN the operating system? From what I read it is the later.

[sbrixie]

Leave it to the EU to waste time and money on a non-issue. If I lived there, I'd be angry.

[Hunnter2k3]

If anything, they should just kill off that god awful excuse for a web browser.
But WOOPs, it IS Microsoft, as if that will ever happen... they love having their own version of everything that anyone else has ever made in existence, or buy them out.

Microsoft have abused their position and lead to such a terrible web with incompatibilities.
The standards aren't that hard Microsoft, _I_ know them and i don't intend to build a web browser in the near future. (had thought about it though)

They have stagnated the "web", regardless of peoples opinions, and that is why they are targeting them, not just because "oh lol, its M$, let us steal some more monies from them".
People are STILL using ActiveX for crying out loud. (yet another attempt to copy)
Now they are doing the same again, but renamed it Silverlight and threw in a scripting to try beat out Flash. (both are pretty crap to be honest)

[onlyauser]

Good job to the EU

[JJDickson]

EUSSR more like. JD.

[gsmiller88]

And what of Apple bundling Safari with Mac OS X in the EU!?

I see no problem with Microsoft bundling their own browser with their operating system, but the end user should be able to uninstall it if desired.

[Lerianis]

They cannot uninstall it because it uses a lot of the same stuff as Windows Explorer. To have a method of uninstalling it, would be tempting Fate and tempting Windows Explorer to not work as well.

[Xyraxel]

So lets say i buy a copy of windows without an browser, how am I supposed to download a browser ??? does that mean I should buy a copy of a browser aswell ?? to be honest I think thats bull **** , I dont use IE i use firefox but come on this really doesnt make much sense to me, even Ubuntu and Mac's come pre loaded with Web browsers.

[tigrad04]

Agree 100%. If the EU goes after Microsoft they should also go after Apple for bundleing safari in OSX and force all the distributions of linux from including Firefox. I would love for someone to explain to me why opera is going to great legnths to expand their market share. It is not like we are paying for their browser anyways and microsoft is blocking revenue for them. Or is that their goal. forcing us to buy a browser like in the Netscape days. Doubtfull that would happen even if opera does win, because firefox is still around, AND open source!!!

[Vegaman_Dan]

If the EU gets their way, then Apple will be forced to sell OS X separate of the hardware since right now it comes bundled- you can't buy the hardware without the OS included and the OS isn't sold separately (only upgrades). But that does open up more revenue oppotunities for Apple as they could charge even more for the complete package really.