Comments on: Why I'm fed up with the global warming debate

It goes on and on without resolution. But now there's new hope that real change could happen. I hope we're not about to get let down again.

[Colddude]

The weather/climate science world has abandoned the second rule of thermodynamics and hands on science for computer modeling . Programmers or so called pseudo modern climatologist/ meteorologist/scientists, computer dependent, lacking in questioning or needing a firm and proven result or even keeping up new AND known science knowledge from over 30 years ago? What the hell? I was there and witnessed it all, warned about a up coming ice age because of trapped greenhouse gas blamed on cars. So we changed the system and bought smaller cars, reduced waste. Then it was the depletion of the ozone layer and we had to cut HFC/CFC and Freon because that was causing the hole in the ozone and cooling the earth. All lies and WE DID IT.
We replaced every refrigeration or home convenience unit to a more energy saving devise. At the same time we put new stringent laws on emissions, waste and water. Also begin recycling programs and clean up our environment.
Saving forests, planting new trees, laws for clean water and air and responsibility towards our mother earth.

We did this all??but that?s just not enough is it? It never will be. Why should our ancestors who left their homelands and countries because of fear of death, famine, tyranny, wars and no future to make a better life for themselves here. Away from the robber barons of the world a free country. But here we are again with the flimflam and deceit. . You robbed me of my future back in the 70?s because of this BS, and now you?ll ask for more by guilt, taxing and robbing us into paying for the air we breath, the air we and our kids breath, for your greedy gain.







AGW(manmade greenhouse gas) can only be observed

in a ?isolated system (closed)? and earth ?IS? an ?OPEN SYSTEM?.
CO2 holds heat in a Closed system, once you ?OPEN? the lid, the law doesn?t work. When you open up the lid, heat and gas escape, and it?s gone into the atmosphere. Hot goes to cold case closed, the second law.
The AGW CO2 was calibrated/concluded using a ?CLOSED? modeling system, so what came first, the Chicken Little or the co2 egg?


I?m hearing and reading from some in the so called weather sciences saying the sun heats the atmosphere, and the atmosphere heats the earth. And this is how their theory on how greenhouse gas was formed, by keeping the heat trapped in.

WRONG!





If this were true, there would be a heating of major per potions in the atmosphere and there isn?t much, only about .01c. Only heating seen in the atmosphere is on their computer model and they can't explain this phenomena, thus came the idea of using CO2. The real world doesn?t work like their model, they have to thrown out the laws of physic and become rapped up(or lazy) with using computer modeling.

Have they forgotten or become void of why these models don?t really work? I honestly think they thought they were right and have had one of the biggest scientific brain farts EVER. . Also using erroneous and left out data like Medieval Warm Period (about 800?1300) and the Little Ice Age (about 1400?1850) , CO2 levels being several times higher through ice core samples and a mountain of growing evidence of bad science is troublesome and suspect to say the least.




Sun heats the ground and the other 75% of our planets surface, ?WATER?.
This heated water evaporates into a gas, rises and is seen mainly as water vapor. Some forming into clouds and come back to earth as rain, the rest goes up into the atmosphere including the HEAT and it?s gone. No trapped gas except for the heat from the planet that my get trapped by cloud cover. And then lost into the atmosphere at night, too begin the whole process again when the sun comes up the next morning. The sun heat the surface, cycles around with weather patterns, heat and gases go back up into the atmosphere and out into space. There?s also a million other things that effect circulation and distribution of heat and gas we don?t even know about not included in these models. Their like dogs chasing it tail putting in calculations and equations to make it work?


It?s an open system brought to you by real nature weather science.


Relax, it?s just the Sun!

A real measurable thing in the sky, something you can observe and keep records of and correlate with weather patterns. The only thing, to predict future weather they may need to create a model!

Unlike the AGW modeling what breaks a law of physics, and has you believing something they can?t prove.

At least with the sun modeling, I can feel it, see it and it comes on regular intervals, like everyday! Hehe!

There's no man made global warming, there's galactic warming from the sun.

We all love our earth and want to keep it as clean as possible, but I refuse to believe bald face lies and falsification. Money and time should be spent on solving some real problems and answers in this world. But I won?t be robbed by the greedy liars and haters of humanity. You want to help Africa to live? Help them help themselves, let them develop their own energy recourses and prosper. Stop forcing people into poverty over carbon.





Here's a few links,

Scientists who disagree with AGW> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/05/warm-refs.pdf


The sun> http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=20272




Greenland>
http://sermitsiaq.gl/klima/article30834.ece?lang=EN

On wrong data for models,


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/05/nosplit/nwarm05.xml





Oh, here?s one other tidbit you should know. The oceans are lowering, not rising.

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202007/MornerInterview.pdf




So now the earth is turning just a little bit faster because of the ice/weight at the poles. Kind of like when a figure skater doing a spin, when you bring your arms in you spin fast. That?s how much the sun effect has on us.

[paulharwood]

Silly post.

The earth is an open system - but the system includes the atmosphere. You canot just vent heat to the atmosphere since that is part of the system.

The earth as a heat system receives energy in the form of radiation from the sun and gives energy in the form of radiation into space. The greenhouse gas issue is that greenhouse gases reduce the radation of energy into space by trapping infrared and therefore the total enery in the system increases (the first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither by created nor destroyed). This is simple - the only question that you can ask is "are we decreasing the amount f heat radiated by the earth to the sun by our actions". All of the evidence (including the INQUA site referenced by that bloke that you quote) show that there has been an increase in temperature in line with the CO2 released from the industrial revolution - which is line with the primary science that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

By the way - why do you quote the second law of thermodynamics - that states that the entropy in an anergy system tends to increase and not decrease? This law would say that chaos would increase as more energy is retained in the system (e.g. more huricanes as the system heats up - sound familiar).

[Galaxy5]

"NPR ran a story about heat in the ocean noting that the oceans have slightly cooled over the past 5 years."

So, you're unwilling to believe this might be due to the water that is not locked up in ice flowing into the oceans? Here's a hint: measure the temperature of a glass of water at room temperature. Next, put ice into the glass and let it melt for two minutes. Now, take the temperature of the water again.

Repeat the experiment with a glass of water ten degrees warmer.

Duh. It's colder than when you started out, isn't it - but there's less ice then at the same point in the same experiment!

There's an awful lot of stupid on this thread. Probably because the article got posted to Freepertown.

[hkyshawn]

Yes. We all know NPR has no bias one way or the other. The prior post quite correctly points to the laws of thermodynamics and what appears to be science based on ignorance of physics and you talk ice water. I don't get it, are you saying that somehow the climate models magically change the laws of thermodynamics? Or were you just thirsty?

[wildchild_plasma_gyro]

Its all about thermo dynamics oh the Earth energy syytem. Now think about that creativly long and hard.

[gsekse]

Ah.... could it be something as simple as... we burn more oxygen then 100 years ago, we have less plant life than 100 years ago, Thus the balance has shifted. So... maybe we should plant more trees and encourage other carbon dioxide to oxygen type growth?

The system works, if we continue, at some point the plants will be happy and animals won't and it will force a shift back.

Why do we think that we are the biggest cause of air pollution. The combined out put of all volcanos in the world adds as much heavy metal and other poisons as the entire industrial revolution. We have an effect, but it's not so one-sided as it is stated. Beware the news organizations, they are more about "entertainment" and less about real science and real data.

[st911.org]

If the global warming is right then the dinosaurs who post against it will be spending a lot of time underground apologising to their grandchildren and reminiscing about the bountiful/selfish days of their youth. If they are right and its all a furphy they will still be underground apologising but this time in a bunker as we all fight over the limited non renewable resources. Imagine 2.5 billion Chinese and Indians living the American dream. Not many countries will be exporting to the US so you will have to keep doing what you are doing now and invade to keep your lifestyle. And by the way look at Phoenix Motors(US) and Lighting Cars in the UK and you will see what electric SUV and sports cars can really do. WAKE UP the world is sick and tired of your selfish ways.

[phoenixchrmn]

I agree both side can create all the date they need to support their side of the arguement and neither side will ever convince the other to change their point of view. At Phoenix Building Solutions in Brookville, Ohio, we have been building and selling energy efficient homes for years. And for years, builders, developers, and consumers have shown little interest. Just recently, with energy costs rising dramatically, have we seen this change. Now a few - not all - are starting to notice, ask questions, and understand the economic value to what we have to offer.

[mpotter28]

It really shows the lack of education in the western world when you read the comments about the "fraud " of global warming. As for the author's idea of using corporate america to help solve the problem - maybe we should check the track record of these people? It's not really very impressive

[david__B]

So, today's Scientists are "More Right" then those in the late 70s that all said we where headead toward a new ice age? Or is it today's scientists are "More Right" then the ones saying dinosaurs where slow lumbering large animals that couldn't run?

Really people, the "Science du jour" is just that, OF THE DAY. Next week you'll all read how the world is self regulating, and more heat = more evaporated water = lower earth tempuratures.

This idea that somehow we can overload a feedback system and cause it to react like it NEVER has in millions of years is just poppycock.

For all those that feel they don't wish to add to global warming, do your part and move to a third world nation and live off the land. LOL

Our technology will get better over time, we are learning to use our man created wastes. There is no magic way to speed this up, and the short time, in the entire history of earth that we are changing the earth isn't even a pimple on the earth, it's more a couple molecules.

[Chameleon81]

If you make a claim you need to support it with proves. Why do you think global warming is fraud? Are you so blind that u dont see that north pole is melting? Check some website check some maps. Check how ice is melting up there.

[Steve Summers]

Yet another example of conflating "Global warming" with "Man made global warming". Just because there is evidence that temps have going up doesn't prove that it's because MAN is causing it - and there are NO reputable scientists who believe that reducing our CO2 emissions even by several times the amounts required by the Kyoto protocols would have ANY noticeable affects.

[ailles]

The debate is not about global warming, it is about how to solve the problem. The left wants to cure it now, with other peoples money, damn the cost,monetary or social, and with the Federal Government making and executing the rules. (Naturaly a far-left democratic U. S. government.)

[krosavcheg]

Re: Ice age in the 70s. One guy back then came up with that and he had a couple of supporters. That is nothing like today. Fools like revisionist history.

[mememine6969]

Rachel Carson would not agree with you modern day greenies. Our air is cleaner with less smog NOW compared to the smoggy 70?s when a river caught fire in Ohio. Don?t believe me? Why does Greenpeace say it? Because they like to brag about their successes. Next time you hear a member of this terrorist group make a speech on Earth Day, listen to them brag about all their successes over the years. BUT, CO2 saves the day and keeps the hysteria and fear alive so we can all walk, talk and think the same for a good cause and feel real good about it. The theory is 25 years old now and time is up. Let?s protect our environment with perspective and not SAVE it from a mythical crisis a hundred year from now with mass fear.
Let?s see some commitment from you greenies. If you still insist on creating an entire generation that is afraid of a clear blue sky because of an invisible demon up there that is going to melt the planet then go tell your kids that their grandchildren will be drowning in a hell on earth in on a melting planet.
The global warming issue in this age of shameless green-goosestepping conformity is something everyone should be concerned about with it?s paralyzing effects of political correctness on culture, media and science with the associated environmental scares we have accepted as real for 30 years. Even though we are living longer now than at any time in human history, we have somehow managed to produce an entire generation that is afraid of an invisible demon in the sky that will see their grandchildren living a hell on earth in a ?hundred years or so?.
The exaggerations and glib explanations from politicians, advocacy groups, bureaucracies and most of all media, are the actual ?science? behind the major environmental so-called horrors and are the real causes of global warming. Global warming will be viewed in history as a cultural trend causing a transfer of wealth from an unwitting public by sequestering money via non-existent threats generated by environ-MENTAL-ism. This is social insanity disguised as concern and believe it or not, we have been waiting 25 years for these dire predictions from this self
fulfilling prophecy of one of the building blocks of life, CO2, causing a future climate crisis. Can you honestly look at a clear blue sky and see any present day crisis of climate? For if you separate this silly theory from the environmetnal equation ,what is left is an envronment that is cleaner, safer and better governed than back in the smoggy 70?s when started Rachel Carson?s crusade. She is truly rolling in her grave.
Global warming?s paralyzing effects on society with its pop culture invasion of science and needless environmental dramas are amounting to nothing more than modern day witch burning. Our climate is not in crisis and if we worked together to rid ourselves of war causing oil with perspective instead fear, we may get a chance to actually be a thinking species. Just as weather itself is feared now and called climate change, let?s remember that back in 1900 they wondered what to do with all of the horses needed by the year 2000. History will laugh, and cry.

[TX-Enviroconservative]

Wow, with the opening paragraph I thought there would be substance to this "story" or "opinion."

I was wrong. Between the name dropping and use of words no one speaks anymore was just a bunch of hot air.

No substance. Just filler.

Intellectual "lite."

[mememine6969]

Would you be "clear" and state "clearly" what side of the issue you are on?

[jonnyboy1544]

Why do you people insist on considering carbon dioxide pollution? Carbon dioxide is a natural chemical produced by our own respiration. So while fossil fuels produce plenty of other chemicals that are considered pollution, they have nothing to do with global warming.

[mememine6969]

I am grateful for being alive at this time in history when we are living longer than at any time in human history. This is partly because of medicines but mostly because of what is NOT killing us; the evironment obviously. Could we have it all wrong? Is the climate in crisis or is it better than the smogy s70?s when a river caught fire in Ohio? Thanks to Rachel Carson?s revolution nearly a half century ago we enjoy cleaner air and water thanks to technology and all sorts of environmental laws.
Before the greenies start goosestepping us back in time, lets remember that we have electricity and clean running water 24 hours a day, 95% of us have jobs, 70% of us own a home or a mortgage, airconditioning, home heating and grocery stores full of cheap, plentiful and safe food, unlike those poor souls in Darfur.
Back in 1900 they wondered what to do with all the horses needed by the year 2000. So lets look to the future with anticipation and not fear from some 25 year old theory that says our grandchildrens children will be suffering and or drowning on a melting planet.

[jemiller0]

The only reason anyone is complaining about global warming here is because they know they are a bunch of wasteful americans driving around oversized SUVs for no good reason. Half the people on here are probably corporate shills paid to make such comments. Give GM, the company that killed the EV1 and does nothing but build large polluting SUVs no credibility. Boycott GM.

[mememine6969]

JemillerO is proving once again that global warming is a dogmatic weapon of choice for the envious and those who have failed at enjoying all of the opportunities that modern life offers us. I don't listen to or care what corporate types think or say. I do my own thinking thank you very much, unlike global warmers. History will view global warmers as modern day witch burners. If you want to politicize global warming to express your personal agendas; insert verbOFF.

[mememine6969]

Global Warmers are welcome to debate at:
http://www.topix.net/forum/news/global-warming
We only have a few GWrs there now. Its an open forum so I'm hoping it is a reflection of public opinion instead of corporate media.

[ecotopian--2008]

Hey dipshit, the reason you aren't getting any Gwrs in your forum is THERE IS NO DEBATE ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING. Y'all are just talking to yourselves.

[Jim Olsson]

The computer models used for predicting future global temperatures are worthless. The necessary initial boundary conditions are not well known and the modesl are extremely simplified. They cannot predict temperatures weeks, months or years ahead. Still proponents argue accurate predictions 100-years ahead. Furthermore, there are no proofs the a delta temperature increase will be of any harm. Finally, investing in other areas such as reducing over population, reducing dieseases, improving general technology, computer and information technology is much better.