Comments on: Coop and the H-1B pinata party

Reader reaction to a recent post make two things clear: Lots of folks treat the H-1B program as a convenient scapegoat-and most agree that I'm a clueless stooge.

[CoolMower]

CanadianKat ,
Noone is saying the H-1B worker is at fault. They are also victims here. The evil ones are the corporations who use "pay for play" lobbyists to affect public policy for their short sighted bottom line.

Sad thing is, they see no further than next quarters numbers.

Then they wonder why their corporations are making less and less revenue, and why the US consumer isn't spending. Well, "we'll just have to lay off some more people until consumers start buying our products again".

"The beatings will continue until moral improves"

[FishwoodC]

You claim we need H1-Bs because fewer Americans are studying IT, or STEM, or whatever it's called today. What would it look like if fewer Americans were studying IT because they were well aware that those who had come before them were doing poorly in IT?

I'm a 1984 graduate of an Ivy school, with an Applied Math degree; I've stayed current in software skills. When I am working I make a solid upper middle class salary, but I've lost ground relative to inflation over the past 5 years. I've been out of work some 25 out of the past 80 months. That doesn't seem like a shortage to me.

Yes, the average salary in America might be half what I'm making, but back when the world was my oyster my choices weren't IT or stocking shelves at WalMart. I was pre-med for a while until I realized I liked software more; other career paths readily available to my classmates were law, investment banking or actuary.

I still enjoy my work, but I would advise any undergraduate to think carefully about his or her future ability to provide for a family in my field.

[Phinance]

I would like to Post the Following Names:

Einstein
Fermi
Marconi
Oppenheimer

Etc etc.

Hadn't they come to the US, (or their fathers), they would have not been "Americans"

I am not saying that all the H-1B will become Nobel price winners etc, but, historically, a large part of scientist and innovators have come from other countries to live in America, and become Americans.

I have lost my job too, due to outsourcing to a cheaper country. But is important to understand the added advantage of having foreigners attend American schools, and work in America.

First: A foreigner who decides to attend an Undergraduate Institution in the US, will pay most of his expenses out of his pocket.

For a good school (Bachelors) this means anywhere from 30k up to 60k per year, times 4 years, it takes us from 120k to 240k.

This times an average of 570k students per year takes us to 68billions per 4 years. (On the low end).

Second: You usually get to keep the best Students, who?s brilliant ideas will generate new business, thus new jobs. Moreover, the will generate more revenues for the government.

Third: The onces who go back, will have learned the American System, and will try to implement it in their country. They will most likely import American ?Goods? from their countries.

In order to keep the US as the World Greatest nation, We need to get the best people to add value to the country. The nation is made of the people who, work, study, think, research etc.

I have seen a trend that many ?great minds? are migrating back to their countries of origin. This is not good for the long term. The real wealth created in the US was due to the technological advances that came from the sciences etc. The US needs to keep it this way since, as we all see, we cannot leave this to the Phinance guys?(What were they trying to do??? A financial nuclear weapon???)

[CoolMower]

The H-1b visa is not for importing the best and brightest. It is for ordinary workers.

We have another category O-1 for that. This visa category has no cap and it is very easy for anyone with extraordinary talent to get one of these visas.

Please stop confusing the H-1b visa with the O-1 visa.

[Phinance]

Yes I I know, but if a foreign student comes to america and he knows that he will not find a job because he will not get an H-1 visa, then most likely, he will take his money somewhere else.

And Most of them do fall on the H-1 visa.

So yes, you can still import the smartest brain: but the quarterback alone doesn't make up for the whole team.

[CoolMower]

Why can't the quarterback work with US workers? Why must he bring his own ordinary team?

[Wak_Em]

I would like to Post the Following Names:

Einstein
Fermi
Marconi
Oppenheimer

Etc etc

Good list, work here or work for the Nazi's. Do you really think these guys needed a visa? If you are for more foreign workers...you are for less US workers. How much of the money they make goes back to Timbuktu?

[Phinance]

So then let's kick al the foreigners out...... I guess only the Native Americans will have the right to stay. They could then open up casinos where ever they wanted....

You may have to Kick out the new president too.

I just want to say the $ again: 68'400'000'000. That is 2 bail outs for the car makers right there.

You want to stop that.. well be my guest.

The reason why everything is so screwed is:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/12/15/madoff.arrest.exposure/index.html

but mostly this:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/real_estate/underwater_borrowers_near_12million/index.htm?cnn=yes

This is bigger than the H-1 Issue, or a single industry. This is pure madness going on.

[medezark]

The United States needs to stop importing labor. Period. There are qualified, intelligent people here. One of the reasons our economy is taking so long to recover from the current debacle is the labor dollars going overseas (yes, most foreign workers tend to send a good portion of their income back to their home countries, either to finance the immigration of family members or to support families back home.) And, I've worked with persons from outside the US. They are on average no "smarter" than persons from within the US, and are usually worse educated. Although they are better at lying about their qualifications, and their resumes are much harder to validate.

Also, even though the "average" IT salary may seem high, IT, like medicine or law, isn't a career where you can get your degree and be done with it. IT personnel, in order to maintain employment, must continuously maintain their skills and expand on them through supplemental training. And the tools of our trade aren't exactly cheap.

Until we have 0% unemployment in the US, we should not be importing workers at all.

[joelam888]

My qualified, intelligent friend who used to work in McDonald's is now looking for an entry-level IT job.

[CoolMower]

Are you making fun of your qualified friend who had to work at McDonalds because all entry level jobs are reserved for H-1b workers?

[walterbyrd]

Tell a lie often enough, and it's the truth. Leave it to CNET, to keep promoting the lies told by CNET's clients. We have heard these BS "arguments" over and over, and frankly, they make no sense at all.

> Unfortunately, U.S. universities aren't graduating the same numbers of engineers as they did a couple of decades ago.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it be that Americans have realized that they are being priced out of the market?

> So what to do?

Want more American technology workers? Provide jobs for them. Stop replacing American technology workers with cheaper foreigners.

> I'm with John Doerr on this one. Part of the solution is to double the annual number of engineers coming out of American universities to 60,000.

Why should an American go though the considerable time, expense, of getting an engineering degree, only to be replaced by a cheaper guest worker?

> At the same time, he wants to supplement that number by finding ways to keep smart foreigners who study engineering in the U.S. in this country.

If that is true, then: "Why Aren?t The H1-B Hogs Satisfied With The O-1 ?Extraordinary Ability? Visa?" To quote the titel of recent article.

[svasconcelos]

The American Universities are not graduating the same number of engineers as they did decades
ago because people are not going there anymore since there will be no jobs available to them when
they finish it. This is the country where everything related to computer was developed here and yet
I have to ask you. Does it make sense for a young man to go for Computer Science???
The answer is pretty clear in the number of enrolment in it a DROP OF 46%.
I do believe that the H1-B program should be terminated. We have three Indian companies getting 85% of the visas. They will come here and work for $10 per hour. The Indian companies put them to live together so that there will be 10 to 12 guys living in a one bedroom apartment. The only people who benefit from the H1_B visas are the consulting companies and the business in general.

[joelam888]

Drop of enrollment comes after the dotcom bubble.

[jgbrut]

You, still don't understand that the reason the colleges and universities are not producing the people with those skill's. They can't find jobs that pay enough to support the 40K-75K per year investment the student had to make to get the degree. Sure Microsoft wants to hire more Computer science PhD, but they want to pay bottom dollar. If I get a PhD I would have to support 500K of loans, that means the jobs need to pay enough to support that large investment. I know many PhD who can't find jobs to support their loan payments.

[joelam888]

Fact is: Almost all PhDs don't pay a dime to their schools. They get stipend for being a TA or a RA.

[hoosierinchitown]

Jgbrut, I was paid to attend graduate school and did not pay one cent in tuition for my masters. Mind you, I was living on about $1000 a month, but it's enough to live on as a student. Any graduate student worth their salt in technology gets an assistantship that covers most of the tuition, and I don't believe I've ever met a technology oriented PhD student without one.

[CoolMower]

There is an opportunity cost in forgoing a career to get a Phd. If the prospects for employment after getting a Phd. does not offset the financial sacrifice, why would any US studend do this.

A foreign student has the incentive of a green card at the end. US students do not need green cards.

[joelam888]

Talking about opportunity cost, everyone who goes to grad schools must study medicine or law.

Wait... maybe college is useless at all.

[Cee918]

US students are denied funded graduate study opportunities because they are being given to foreign nationals. How do I know? It happened to my son who had a 4.0 in EE; only 3 of the assistantships went to US citizens. He could attend if he could pay his own way.

[joelam888]

If assistantships are limited, they should go to the best students.

[BobN34]

I would support increasing guest workers under ONE condition. That journalists accept guest workers into THEIR field at the same rate as tech, and then vote that guest workers for journalism increase even above that.

These people already write globalist tripe as it is - there's no 'American' perspective to lose.

I have a simple question 'Coop', do you favor such a program for journalists? Aren't media companies in as much or more need for proifits these days as tech? A lot of people in India can write English very well. Couldnt they do YOUR job cheaper? From what I've seen, Indians are great at 'cut and paste' - I think they'd be great with industry propaganda, just as good as you.

Our state's newspaper just laid off a lot of people, and some were interviewed by the local tv station. Some were very bitter. I hope they become destitute. They've always censored the citizen's point of view in favor of globalism, I have no tears when the die by the sword they lived by

[RG_in_Tampa]

The problem is not foreigners coming to the U.S. and taking American jobs but companies continuously looking to reduce labor costs for the widget being produced. That's the same synergy that companies have always looked for except to get it now, they have to outsource the work overseas. Putting roadblocks that will not allow companies to do that will stop them from being competitive on the world stage.

So the difference between raising the H1 cap or the alternative of allowing it to be offshored is that if companies offshored it, the money goes into the foriegn economy, pays for housing there, food, car, gas, education, etc, etc. The money is spent in the foreign economy and the U.S. will see very little if any of it returned.

Now if the H1 cap is raised, those workers enter the U.S. and spend 90% of all of that money here. Yes, the argument can be made that they send a large portion of it back home; however, what is an individuals saving rate?? Typically, that is pretty low and thus the maximum discretionary income that could be allowed to leave this country by an individual.

These workers also pay into the SSN system; however, they never recover that money unless they become U.S. citizens. A large portion of these workers leave after 6 years because they haven't received the greencard; thus, leaving the largest portion of their earnings behind to continue to circulate in the U.S. economy.

We compete globally and thus have to have access to global resources to be competitive; unless U.S. workers were willing to lower the pay rates that they desire. If they did that, I'm certain that U.S. based companies would hire U.S. workers. You just can't pay double for the same widget.

And Yes, I'm a U.S. worker in a tech field. I also spent 8 years in the military, traveled the world, saw a lot of places that I would never want to return to and I'm very thankful that I get to reside in the U.S.

In order to remain competitive you must never stop studying. Continually improve the skillsets and learn to work with all nationallities in an unbiased non-recentful manner. I believe that we should raise the cap and keep that money circulating in this economy, which in turn will create more jobs at home (not less). Since the cap was implemented, the economy has been on a downward spiral. I believe this is a piece of that puzzle that needs to be fixed.

[CoolMower]

People are being forced to train their h-1b replacement and then become unemployed. This does not square with your comment.

[Wak_Em]

We compete globally and thus have to have access to global resources to be competitive; unless U.S. workers were willing to lower the pay rates that they desire. If they did that, I'm certain that U.S. based companies would hire U.S. workers. You just can't pay double for the same widget.

What a crock!!!

Being competitive means you play by their rules not ours. We allow foreigners in here for schooling and jobs. The do not reciprocate. We allow wages to drop due to foreign workers. They do not raise their workers wages for the same widget. Take a look a Dell, charging more for an American for tech services. You get a foreigner for free. I am sure the American customer service rep can read the script better than the foreigner can. A visa is for tourists and business travelers. You want to work here? Apply for citizenship, or sneak across the border like all the others.

[hvla]

absolutely true, one comment that has come from a logical/rational and realistic place, unlike most all which are understandably emotional and realistically irrational albeit xenophobic

[hoosierinchitown]

This is one of about 3 realistic comments on this board. If it's a choice between offshoring or bringing in foreign labor (and it is one or the other), we want the foreign labor here. At least most of the money stays in the US.

[BobN34]

" If it's a choice between offshoring or bringing in foreign labor (and it is one or the other), we want the foreign labor here"

Grassly and Durbin have shown that your arguement is yet another industry LIE

Senator Durbin said this on the senate floor:

"Kamal Nath, the Indian Commerce Minister, was very blunt when he said recently that the H-1B visa "has become the outsourcing visa." He concluded: "If at one point you had X amount of outsourcing and now you have a much higher quantum of outsourcing, you need that many more visas."

That is a very candid statement by this commerce minister in India. It should give us pause as we think about this program, what it was designed to do and what it is actually doing.

In other words, the Indian Government wants more H-1B visas so Indian companies can outsource more American jobs to India. "

from http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/5/16/183114/236


Perhaps you shoud contact the Indian Minister of Commerce and correct him on what the H-1b visa is all about, obviouslly YOU know more about it than he does

If there's one thing every pro-H-1b arguement always has in common, it's LIES

each and every one of them

[CoolMower]

Not true!

H1-B facilitates offshoring. It makes offshoring easier. In India, the H-1b visa is called the "offshoring visa"

[RG_in_Tampa]

There is no requirement to have a H1 to work on overseas soil and perform work for a U.S. Company. Individuals with H1's reside in the U.S. It is true that Indian companies pick up a large number of these initially but the money that employees earn, regardless of the employer is re-circulated in the U.S. economy because those individuals live hear.

Some Indian consulting companies do benefit from the outsourced work; however, if the company is looking to reduce the wages anyways, those companies would still be the ultimate benefactor.

Most H1's are transferred from those Indian companies to U.S. companies if the consultant stays in the U.S. past there first contracting assignment. That's simply a result of the job search that they have to do after the first assignment. H1 transfers are easily facilitated and the next company that wants to hire them does not typically want any additionally layers (consulting companeis) in the middle collecting fees with no value add. That's a true statement whether the next hiring company is a consulting company or a company that is more of an end-client such as Microsoft, BofA, Verizon, etc.

BobN34, there is no reason to get mad and start calling people liars. Having a differing oppinion is the root of the democratic rights that we enjoy. To have to use language as such simply shows that you are lacking an education to be able to voice your opinion otherwise. It's pretty much the same reason that a person shouldn't use profanity. Educate and learn to articulate your beliefs without the anger.

[Wak_Em]

Getting an education does not mean you get to keep your job when foreigners arrive in your work place. What is the incentive for a foreigner to work in the US? Why not use their "degree" in their own country? Let me help, NO MONEY BACK HOME!!! Get it. They will come and do the work that companies want Americans to do, but do not have to pay a prevailing American wage. I never heard of any country raising their standard of living by lowering wages across the board.

[BobN34]

"BobN34, there is no reason to get mad and start calling people liars"

actually, there is one time for it - when people are telling lies. I refuted and footnoted my case for doing so.

It's perfectly appropriate to call out arguements as lies, when they are contunually put out long after being completely refuted.

Thoe who wish not to be called a liar, have an obligation to stop lying

[NickCar]

Please, write something that we don´t know :)

[relawson]

I challenge you to some sort of moderated debate. I promise not to call you a fool or jack### - I think this can be debated without that.

Many of your premises that you base your article on are flat wrong. I'll gladly explain why in an online debate/webcast.

-R. Lawson (relawson at sdsflorida dotcom)

[ErnieTheBear]

I see all these comments about being 'forced' to train your H1-B replacement. Are you high? Force, how? Are they holding your kids hostage? Are they withholding your grandmother's heart medication? Or, more likely, you're kissing their corporate butts to keep a job at a company that considers you lower than whale poop? Tell them you're not going to train anyone to take your job. Seriously, what are they going to do to you, fire you? Grow some hair. If you really need the job that bad, tell the company you'll do it for the same thing Hadji's getting, or tell them to get stuffed.

[BoboKnows]

Yes, most places will fire you for blatant insubordination.

So if you're told to train your replacement, you have the choice of losing your job immediately,
or losing it several months down the line. Most people understandably choose the latter.

As for choosing Hadji's salary, by the time he's on the job, that may not be an option.
Furthermore, Americans with families to feed and mortgages to pay often need more money
than Hadji who lives with 3 of his pals in a 2-bedroom apartment and eats Ramen for dinner.

[BoboKnows]

Big surprise - VC bigwig Doerr sides with the CEOs. I wouldn''t have guessed....

Charles, why don't you at least make a token effort to present the other side?
Talk to Norman Matloff of UC-Davis.

[netmenders]

Simple solution for Coop's question, raise the education requirement and eliminate the bachelor's degree level from all non-immigrant visas.

The USCIS H-1B fraud report shows the non-compliance rate for bachelors degrees at 31%.
http://grassley.senate.gov/private/upload/100820081-3.pdf

In FY 2006, 57% of [all] new H-1B visa recipients had advanced degrees, including 41% with master?s degrees, 5% with professional degree, and 11% with doctorates.

Eliminating the bachelors degree from the H-1B, it would free-up 36,550 visa per year -- 35,100 of those visas would come from computer related occupations.

More from the NSF...

In 2006, 44% of those receiving new H-1B visas in computer-related occupations had master?s degrees, and a little more than 1% had doctoral degrees. Over two-thirds of the slightly more than 110,000 recipients of H-1B visas in 2006 are in S&T occupations Education Levels.

...that computer-related occupations accounted for 51% of 110,000 H-1B visas in 2006.

...have a higher rate of non-postgraduates (bachelorate level or lower) than the H-1B program as a whole. (54% to 43% respectively)

...that H-1B non-postgraduate holders are concentrated in computer-related occupations due to very high subscription levels.

...that computer-related H-1Bs with masters degrees earned $400.00 less than those with bachelor degrees. See table: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c3/tt03-29.htm

...that all foreign born S&E workers with only a bachelors degrees earn 6.3% less than Americans.

End NSF...

Obviously, the computer-related H-1B is oversubscribed at the bachelor degree level. If we could get USCIS to deny computer-related H-1B visas at the bachelor degree level. 35,100 of the 65,000 H-1B visa cap would be available to more qualified migrants.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind08/c3/c3s4.htm

[CoolMower]

So Charles,

Have you now been educated on the issue you speak of yet?

Will your next article also spout the same industry line, or have you seen the error of your ways?

Your public is standing by for your response.

Cheers,
Cool.

[JoeF2]

How about YOU educating yourself first?
It is obvious from your posts that you have absolutely no clue about the H1.

[CoolMower]

Charles, not only does India want to have their citizens replace the U.S. IT work force on U.S. soil, they are asking that they not have to pay taxes!!!

This is adding insult to injury.
Unbelievable!!!

<b>NEW DELHI: The Indian government has asked the US to increase the number of work visas (H1-B and L1) and ensure that there be no legislation to prevent companies from applying for such visas. India has also asked the US government to expedite action on a totalisation agreement to avoid double taxation on Indian workers in the US. </b>

"http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Economy/India_asks_US_for_more_work_visas/articleshow/3837505.cms"

[hvla]

you illiterate fool , the double taxation only applies to the social securty tax that indians pay to the US govt and never avail of it (as most leave the country) while paying the same back home, the US gov has treaties with almost all other countries to avoid this

you just proved the reason your job has either been outsourced/ or replaced, by brighter foreign talent

[CoolMower]

Clearly you do not understand what SS is all about. No person has the SS they paid "avail" to them in the future. SS is not a savings or retirement account. The SS we pay today goes to the recipients today.

[JoeF2]

Clearly, you obviously have no clue what the social security totalisation agreements are.
May I suggest looking that up on the Social Security Administration's website?
In short, totalisation agreements ensure that the time paid into the US social security system by citizens of another country is taken into consideration for the other country's comparable system, and vice versa.
The US has totalisation agreements with most Western European countries, as well as with Singapore , Canada, Australia.

[CoolMower]

I have no interest in social security totalisation agreements. If such a program exists, then it may need to be looked at, in order to also eliminate it, certainly not expand it. My interest is in eliminating the h-1B job killing program.

[Penguinisto]

Heya Charles...

Seriously? I agree with you. That said, I think you may have managed to call up the entire frickin' John Birch Society membership this go 'round. ;)

[genus11]

SS is a Government-run Ponzi scam. That's it. Current retirees are lucky ones who got in earlier........
When the number of new "members" decrease this scam will fell apart.

[CPCcurmudgeon]

If Google, M$, and some of the others are really hurting for workers, why do they
- lay people off (even contractors) with STEM degrees?
- schedule appointments for prospective candidates, then miss the appointments?

These do not sound like things that companies who are really hurting for workers do.

I participate in forums like CollegeConfidential, in which pre-college kids ask lots of questions about the viability of STEM careers. They know all about the layoffs, replacement of American workers with workers on "guest" visas, outsourcing, offshoring, and so forth. So now these terms have entered the lexicon of STEM professions, thanks to the actions of Ballmer, Gates, Schmidt, etc. They have done this to themselves - given talented, qualified students reasons not to work in STEM fields (and in particular, their companies).

The great irony of all this is that Ballmer, Gates, etc. were so sure that the US would be such a desirable place to live and work that the "brightest and best" from outside the US would jump at the chance to come here. Not so. More and more of them want to stay where they are and compete in the global market. Again, Ballmer, Gates, etc. have brought this upon themselves.

About the only concession I can see US citizens needing to make is to accept lower wages to make themselves competitive in the global market. But many US citizens don't even get to bid down the price for their work. Instead, they're shown the door, and later some find "guest" visa workers doing their jobs. Some of those unfortunates had to train those "guest" workers.

Finally, Charles, do you really expect there to be reasoned debate on this topic, given the economy, the massive job losses in tech, not to mention the way in which you polarized the debate to begin with? It is a highly emotional subject. Talented, hard working US citizens are being let go in favor of "guest" workers even though they (the US citizens) are fully capable of doing the jobs. There is nothing "reasonable" about this. People affected by this are justifiably angry.