Comments on: Microsoft confirms Windows adheres to broadcast flag

Broadcasters have Microsoft's cooperation in preventing consumers from skipping past commercials. How many other hardware or software makers honor the flags?

[eBob1]

This is exactly why I will not buy or use Windows Media Center. The fact that the source code is not open should tell people that it isn't trustworthy.

[Lerianis]

This isn't just a problem with Windows Media Center PC's or Vista Home Premium and higher PC's: some set-top boxes ALSO adhere to these 'flags' when they shouldn't.

Microsoft should IMMEDIATELY supply a patch that turns off this functionality in Windows Media Center (yes, it is a planned functionality), and I expect they will.

[sal-magnone]

"The fact that the source code is not open should tell people that it isn't trustworthy. " - that was funny, Thanks.

[Mr. Dee]

Thats perfectly ok. But still understand that Windows is a proprietary operating system, not Linux. There is no other OS that delivers the same level of compatibility and integration. Unless you are willing to pay the Apple Design Tax, then you should be just fine.

[freemarket--2008]

"Unless you are willing to pay the Apple Design Tax, then you should be just fine."

How about the Windows Monopoly Tax that lets them soak up billions of unearned dollars from their hostage customers and pay off billions in fines and lawsuits with just a shrug.

[Travis Ernst]

"Since then, Microsoft and other manufacturers have retained the option of whether to honor the flags."...

Thankfully I don't use that, however if MS uses a similar setup to what others are there is a very easy way around this, line in option. Thats under the presumption the person has an external tuner and the MS device can take line in. I've used line in to port in other sources, even antenna and it works like a charm. I'll have to test mine this week and see if they are effected by NBC as well or if it is only MS.

[bjcamus]

Microsoft's capricious dictates coupled with Ubuntu's easy installation have led me to finally make the shift to Linux about 9 months ago. Thanks for reaffirming my decision.

[cb3431]

I would do the same thing if I were in charge at Microsoft. The content owners aren't going to come after you for recording the show, they are going to go after Microsoft.

[Lerianis]

They cannot go after Microsoft because the recording shows is LEGAL, as is even offering them on the internet, as long as the other person has a premium cable or satellite connection with those channels.

[Renegade Knight]

The Key Flaw is that consumers have the right to record boradcoast shows for later playback. This was established in the era of VCRs. It's fair use. There is nothing and nobody to go after. Instead it's MicroSoft annoying their customers to gain the favor of broadcastors perhaps for future integration (and DRM) or services that MS would like to offer. A good faith showing on their part to the broadcasters would go along way towards gaining that favor later. They just have to be willing to annoy and lose customers in the meantime.

[clpdan]

Just another reason why it's time to dump Windows.

[Lerianis]

No, it is not time to dump Windows. I am sure that were Apple to offer recording functionality, that the big name TV companies would twist THEIR arms to include these broadcast flags as well in their systems..... which they might actually HAVE done that.

[BigOldNerd]

Yes it IS time to dump M$. Linux is the true path to take. Open source does what you want it to do. Remember it was M$ that brought us DRM and made it a BIG PART of Vista. The only reason to stay with M$ is if your a gamer and you can buy consoles that will out do Vista anytime. Run, DO NOT WALK, to UBUNTU 8 or Fedora 9 and discover what a real OS will do for you. They are not designed to annoy you and prevent you from doing what you bought your computer for in the first place. Oh, and it does not spy on you either.

[sal-magnone]

Linux is no where outside the server room. After all these years of trying to be desktop ready, it was Apple that cracked the code, with a closed source OS.

Linux's incompatibility and UI would drive the average consumer nuts.

[DaGeek9]

Apple cracked WHAT code??? Thats just to funny!!!! Ever heard of MythTV for Linux. Try doing a little research. Linux has come a long way and has both M$ and Apple running scared. As far as driving the average user crazy, I think M$ and Apple already have that market cornered. The average user of computers just want the thing to work and do not understand the inner workings of the system in front of them. As far as the UI is concerned if you can move a mouse you can use Linux. Online support for Linux is far better then M$ and Apple because of ts open source background. M$ and Apple and its fanboys know that the money comes from poor tech support and confused customers. I have always thought that M$ and Apple treat their customer like mushrooms. They keep them in the dark and feed them manure so they can keep that corporate bottom line healthy.

[MTGrizzly]

As someone who watches virtually no broadcast TV - everything comes through my DishNetwork DVR - I find MS's actions reprehensible. I would be willing to bet that a great many people watch TV the way I do. I would imagine that many of us will not buy Windows Media Center. This is just what MS needs as they fall further and further behind on the online curve. I guess, since their online division lost hundreds of millions of dollars last year they feel that they can only make money by bowing to content providers - once again, screwing their customers...

Windows is the only product that is intentionally made to not do what you bought it for.

One wonders, since recording and time shifting has been legal for decades, would it be a violation of the DMCA to defeat the "flagging" "feature" in WMC? You know it will happen, or has happened, that someone will defeat this latest form of copy protection. On the other hand, maybe Microsoft just enjoys pissing off their customers by preventing them from doing something that is entirely legal.

Oh, and to the comment on "Apple Design Tax," I sit here surrounded by PC's running everything from Win 98SE to Vista Home Premium; Silicon Graphics machines running IRIX, Sun workstations running Solaris and a few Macs. If Apple's ability to make their software and hardware work together at a reasonable price constitutes a "design tax," then SGI and Sun have "taxes" for the same thing. If they wanted to sell something that might work, (and which is being continually made less compatible), they could do what Microsoft and the PC market have done.

[JCPayne]

Just so you know Dishnet may have this too... For example TIVO does... You have to look for a logo on the side of your device called MACROVISION......

[Imalittleteapot]

From what I know it isn't really copy protection in encryption sense. It isn't something that needs to be hacked. The design, or least the original design, was pretty simple. It may be a few bits set in a digital stream that get lost when you make an analog recording. You'd lose the quality of digital in your recording however. It may also be a watermark in an analog signal. A digital water mark is simply a slight interference in the signal that doesn't interfere enough so that a human could see or hear it, but a computer can still pick it up.

For a simpler example an mp3 may contain a high pitch frequency that a human couldn't hear, but the computer can still pick them up. That way even an analog duplication may still contain the water mark.

Either method they're using are already known by hackers. Both type of flags are easily removed from content.

Basically the signal is still the same. You don't have to hack it or decrypt it any different from what I've heard. All that happens is when the computer or recorder picks up the flag it simply refuses to play or record it. The device is perfectly capable of using the signal. The programmer just put code in that causes the device to tell you to screw yourself if it reads a flag. That's all. You can hack it by simply building a device or program that simply ignores the flag.

There may be different classes of flags too. Media Center may detect a flag that says it's alright to watch the signal but not record it, or you can't watch or record it, or you can only watch it on Thursdays if you do record it. Who knows what types of flags it listens for.

[Mallardd]

MythTV is a great solution to this "problem"

[catch23]

I'd recommend GB-PVR. You get to keep the ease and familiarity of Windows, get rid of issues like this, and have wonderful community support.
The best of all worlds

[Imalittleteapot]

From what I know it isn't really copy protection in encryption sense. It isn't something that needs to be hacked. The design, or least the original design, was pretty simple. It may be a few bits set in a digital stream that get lost when you make an analog recording. You'd lose the quality of digital in your recording however. It may also be a watermark in an analog signal. A digital water mark is simply a slight interference in the signal that doesn't interfere enough so that a human could see or hear it, but a computer can still pick it up.

For a simpler example an mp3 may contain a high pitch frequency that a human couldn't hear, but the computer can still pick them up. That way even an analog duplication may still contain the water mark.

Either method they're using are already known by hackers. Both type of flags are easily removed from content.

Basically the signal is still the same. You don't have to hack it or decrypt it any different from what I've heard. All that happens is when the computer or recorder picks up the flag it simply refuses to play or record it. The device is perfectly capable of using the signal. The programmer just put code in that causes the device to tell you to screw yourself if it reads a flag. That's all. You can hack it by simply building a device or program that simply ignores the flag.

There may be different classes of flags too. Media Center may detect a flag that says it's alright to watch the signal but not record it, or you can't watch or record it, or you can only watch it on Thursdays if you do record it. Who knows what types of flags it listens for.

[Imalittleteapot]

Sorry about the double post.

[eBob1]

It isn't so much that the flag needs to be removed from the content. The flag simply needs to be ignored. Regardless of what the content companies want, it is legal to record broadcast television for personal use. Putting those recordings on the internet is another matter entirely.

[Imalittleteapot]

Yeah ignore it. I mentioned that at the end there. The only reason hackers would remove the flag is so people using equipment that listens for the flag could use it too, but so far that hasn't been needed.

[dgiamanco]

Would this restriction imposed by Microsoft be similar to the situation when you try and record HBO content, but get a DRM'ed file? I have experienced many issues where HBO content will not play on a media center extender, a 360 to be exact, and the content will not burn to dvd like other recording from other stations.

[ewelch]

This is Microsoft trying to set itself apart as the harbinger of DRM. Once they get control of it, all other operating systems will be shut out. Don't let it happen!

[AppleSuxLeo]

Didn`t affect my ATI HDTV Wonder as it was built before the hardware was required to be "broadcast-flag" compliant. And the over-the-air picture is the Gold Standard.

[Imalittleteapot]

The flag detection can be built into hardware or software. I don't think they're talking about hardware this time. Just Media Center for Vista. The article sounds like you could use another recording application on Vista and not be affected.

But it said affects some users? What does that mean? Is it communicating with the hardware to read the flag? That would make it hardware dependent like you say, but this article doesn't say. Was the broadcast just wrongly flagged in certain areas or what?

The big story is MS is willing to screw its customers for
Hollywood, but why? What did they do to convince MS to do this? The law doesn't require MS to do this. Was there a big payoff somewhere? That's' what I want to know, and the media isn't asking the questions.

[JCPayne]

Same problem as the ZUNE all over again.... If you buy it and Microsoft deletes all your Simpsons episodes for example don't come on here crying 5 years from now saying waaaaah! Because you have a chance to speak with your $$$ and your feet.

[umbrae]

Between this and WMP refusing to play certain content on my monitor are reasons why MS will fail in the media arena. No sense using a product like this when you will not have this problem with MANY OTHER FREE alternatives.

Adhering to an unconstitutional "rule" which is not law and adversely affecting consumers is a bad move. As if Vista doesn't have enough problems.

[thedreaming]

So basically Windows Media Center is paying attention to flags set by the broadcaster which they are not supposed to use since they don't have the right and that everyone else just ignores? Okay....

[Lerianis]

Well, remember that Microsoft's arm was being twisted by the broadcasters who were saying "The FCC is going to make this mandatory! You had better include this NOW or we will sue you to make you include it later!" Turned out that the broadcasters were totally WRONG, but Microsoft still hasn't gotten around to removing this 'feature' from Windows Media Center and Player.

[Vegaman_Dan]

FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION SAID TO DO IT

Now whether or not they have the right currently to make it stick is simply a matter of a judge's decision and that can come pro or con regarding this situation. Given the pressure that the FCC has been bringing to bear on all the OEM's of late, it makes sense to prepare for the inevitibl and not stick our fingers in our ears shouting 'lalalaalaalalalala' like so many of the people here are wont to do.

Remember, this isn't Microsoft pushing for this, this is your United States Government. Don't like it? Don't tell Apple, Microsoft, Redhat, Tivo, DSN, etc. Tell your Representative or Congressman. Get involved, don't sit on the sidelines and let this happen to you without your input.

[only_follow_real_rules]

sensible preparation would entail programming, not putting restrictions into production software. Is it inevitable that the FCC will win, and why should a consumer products company pre-emptively take the position that the FCC will? Just asking...

[stlwest]

If the FCC overstepped it's mandate then Microsoft should remove this flagging system from their software. Period.

[ArbitraryThinker]

I have been a Windows Media Center owner and a huge advocate for the last few years. I upgraded to Vista after it came out and was very impressed. Until I started getting this DRM lock out problem. It is now hitting the news because it impacted a prime-time NBC broadcast. The reality is DirecTv based TNT and IFC have been doing this for quite some time.

This is unfortunate, because if Microsoft does not fix this very quickly and very publicly it is the end of Windows Media Center. What person would go out today and purchase a new Media Center PC knowing that the DRM features step far beyond the legal boundaries they are required to comply?

[AgamemnonRD]

Doesn't anyone remember the court case about VCR's. It's, Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., the Supreme Court of the United States, and it says that "the making of individual copies of complete television shows for purposes of time-shifting does not constitute copyright infringement, but is fair use". Therefore, the American Public has the right to copy their TV shows and it will take an act of Congress to change it. Of course, it appears that the U.S. Congress is often bought and paid for by the BIG Corporations so it wouldn't surprise me if DRM Hollywood purchased a new law to make it illegal to tape our favorite shows.