Comments on: Challenges coming to ISO Open XML vote?

Accusations of irregularities in voting to standardize Office Open XML could mean the results will be challenged. Microsoft expects IBM to push others to appeal.

[Commander_Spock]

Re: "Challenges coming to ISO Open XML vote?"!

Told ya all; "It Is Not Going To Be Over Until The Fat Lady Sings". :-) M ;-) M :-)

[Commander_Spock]

Now, "All Your (XML) Base Are Belong To Us"

So says IBM's T. J. Watson (It Is Really Ready When It Is Good To Go); and, "Open XML" ain't ready yet!

Here is why:

"Re: Concerning the issues with 1-2-3 that are talked about in the documentation you gave me, most of the issues are related to converting files between older and newer versions of product and converting documents between Lotus and Microsoft. Anytime a file is saved backwards or saved with an older file format than the format the file was created under, such as saving a 1-2-3 , 97 file for Windows 95 into a WK1 format for DOS, then naturally we are expected to loose certain features due to technology and features that are present now that were not present 8 - 10 years ago. Similarly, if we try to convert a file from Lotus into Excel or Excel into Lotus, due to differences in the products not every feature will be converted perfectly with the file filters that are available. Both Lotus and Microsoft create similar spreadsheet programs; however, there are several differences in both programs and these differences will remain to distinguish the products apart. We do try to design conversion filters that will allow as much of the file formats as possible to be exchanged and converted without disrupting the actual file design and format.

In one of your letters you made mention of the @IRR and @ERR functions in the 1-2-3 product. By design the @IRR (notably "absent" in Open Office) will calculate the Internal Rate of Return; where the @ERR is used in conjunction with other formulas, posted was an "ERR" showing an error was received in the calculations. As far as I can see in the program I cannot find an @ERR function that will allow us to calculate an Economic Rate of Return"

So, Party Like It Is 1998.

Now, "All Your (XML) Base Are Belong To Us"

"Ever Onward IBM"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9oh3gqOEKU

"To Boldly Go Where None Has Gone Before"

Live Long And Prosper!

Commander_Spock and Crew.

[sal-magnone]

Riiiight...

...IBM is interested in the common good. Just like the EU is interested in competative trade.

This is a dirty fight all around.

[Commander_Spock]

Right On. :-)

"The voting record shows that 75 percent of countries voted to approve and 14 percent voted against. To pass, it needed a two-thirds majority and not more than a quarter opposed.

As such, a change in one country's vote would not affect the overall result". How about raising the the percentage required for approval to 80 instead of "75 percent". Now, this would/should tell us something. :-)

[Commander_Spock]

Re: "Riiiight..."

"...IBM is interested in the common good. Just like the EU is interested in competitive trade. This is a dirty fight all around". The question is: How many do realize by and large that the "battle" for the "Desk Top Space" is still raging?

[robvme]

Absolutely

Only IBM, Oracle, and Novell are backing ODF. None of these companies come close to the half billion users of Office. To exclude these users is not a solution. Like Microsoft or not, it is going to take a format that is a little better than "Word Pretty Good" with a 5 word dictionary that will work for everyone, not just the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

The comment about a dirty fight is correct, this is not at all about what is best for the consumer, its how one company can attack another or hold onto what they have. Bottom line is, I want to be able read, write, and pubish a document regarless of the vendor. With Microsoft and Adobe I have that. Like those companies or not, attempting to make their format a standard that can be regulated is a good step in the right direction.

[cmwendy]

Armonk clean? Hmmm...

Standards Norway voted to change its ISO ballot to ?Yes? for approval of OOXML. They used their process to do so. According to the standards body, though they knew this decision would receive criticism, the change to ?Yes? was ?not unexpected?.

As I see it, the ?Yes? decision was based on the standards body?s own authority and rules, balanced by several other factors, which included: 1. An impasse occurred in the technical committee, stranding the further development of the Ecma / OOXML standard; 2. There was overwhelming support for passage of the OOXML standard at the formal hearings, conflicting with, and further isolating, the technical committee and its impasse; 3. ISO remains the best place to ensure that the important Ecma standard can be maintained and improved, and that work must go forward; and 4. International cooperation / comity between ISO / IEC demand that Standards Norway best ensure that the proposals they work on can be approved at ISO ? that is, there is a strong institutional disposition toward approval.

If this is irregular, then I hope all are this clean.

Now let's look at September's "No" vote from Kenya - which was written by a Malaysian Delegate and an ICT industry representative (hint - not from Redmond, but the other side of the US). Let's take a look at South Africa. India. Brazil. Venezuela. China. If the EC is gonna' look, they might do well to look at Armonk and others, too.

[Commander_Spock]

Redmond "clean? Hmmm..." - Think Again!

Think the U. S. Department of Justice, Think The European Competition Commission. :-) :-$ M ;-) :-$ M :-) :-$

[jdzions]

IBM has played ISO policitcs for decades

IBM owns the national delegations of more than a dozen nations. ISO rules are one nation, one vote; a nation whose rules permit it can have its national policy set by a committee whose members are either employed by IBM or deeply in bed with IBM. It's happened that way to my certain knowledge since the 80s, and it's almost certainly been true since the 60s.

[Carion]

I think everything went fair....

Just as fair as the elections in Zimbabwe...

[robvme]

IBM - An expert on irregularities

This from a company that was just suspended from doing business with the federal government for irregular business practices.

[Leria]

I was wondering when that would be brought up

I was really wondering when someone would bring up that fact... IBM has a lot of things they are having to do some explaining about right now.

[Commander_Spock]

Oh Yeah - "robvme"!

Remember; "Let Him That Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone". So, who are you to judge Since it is also written; "There Is None Perfect - No, Not One"!

[jeromatron]

Fast track?

I understand that Microsoft needs the approval to allay fears of a non-standardize format among government customers, but objectively I don't think this proposal deserves the Fast Track at all. There are so many problems and questions about the format that remain, it just seems logical to take a step back and put it through the regular process.

[paulej]

IBM, et al, should shut up and move on

I have no personal interest in which technology wins. But, I can report that I've been using Office 2007 for a long time now and I'm quite happy with it. The only problem is the very fact that it uses XML. XML is slower to process than the older binary file format. How slow? Well, with a very large document, I can see a difference in performance of about 4 seconds to load to 12 seconds to load. Still, the worlds wants a dog-slow XML format... whatever.

Putting performance aside, it works. Is it the *best* way? Are there potential issues? As a customer, why do I care? I just expect Microsoft to make its products work correctly. I would expect all vendors to come to agreement on solutions to "issues" that are found. I do not see any reason to go back and forth for a very long time in an effort to create a "pure" standard that one believes has no issues.

I can assure you: there will be issues, even after studying the problem for 10 years. I do not believe it is in anybody's interest to delay this work for 10 years or even 2 more years.

Would it help Microsoft? No, they're shipping products now. Would it help IBM? Who uses their word processor? What would help IBM is if they adopted OOXML and shipped a product!

Paul

[The_Decider]

Last time I checked

OOXML was not implemented in Office 2007. .docx is not OOXML.

In fact, I doubt there is a 100% complaint implementation anywhere.

[Commander_Spock]

Paul, Paul, Paul - Be Careful With Those "Heels"!

Won't you. :-)

Re: "I do not believe it is in anybody's interest to delay this work for 10 years or even 2 more years. Would it help Microsoft? No, they're shipping products now. Would it help IBM? Who uses their word processor? What would help IBM is if they adopted OOXML and shipped a product"!

Yep, "Microsoft? (No,) they're shipping products now. And, "The CONCORDE" is again flying commercially. What are we missing out on?

[mhauss]

What about ODF which was ALREADY ISO cert?

Why is it that M$ could not conform to ODF as it was already an ISO certified standard? Now M$ expects everyone to use their format because they could not take NO for an answer; now they expect the world to conform to their 'fasttracked' standard?
I do NOT support any efforts of M$ simply because of the ethical considerations they give to their decisions. Who is really benefiting from the approval of OOXML as a intl. std.? The consumer? No. The IT field? No. The government of any nation? No. Microsoft? Yes. All they have to do now is sue everyone who tries to employ OOXML in their products for royalties (don't be surprised if this happens).
The world may never know why M$ could not have started using ODF because it was already an international standard.

[t8]

EU investigation would be good.

<QUOTE>In February, the Wall Street Journal reported that European antitrust regulators were investigating earlier steps in the ISO voting process.</QUOTE>

Great, coz the EU doesn't take Microsoft crap like the US and others. If there were dodgy going ons, then they should find them.

[Commander_Spock]

Very, very "Simple" Solution!

Let the U. S. Housing and Financial Market Forces decide which "STANDARDS" they wish to use/will use at their places of Businesses, when they Fly Aboard the Airplanes, while they wait at the Airports; also, use in their Bedrooms, Living Rooms, Kitchens, Garages, Trucks, SUVs, Cars.... ;-)

[jdzions]

ISO isn't under EU jurisdiction

What could the EU possibly do to ISO, which is a transnational organization with a larger pool of member nations than the EU has? All EU members are already members of ISO; if they don't like what ISO did, they can bring it up through channels. The EU is not a single nation and is thus not a member of ISO; it has no standing to bring a complaint under ISO rules.

It's not like ISO sells a product in the EU; they charge a price for copies of their standards, but they're a non-profit. I don't think the EU can fine them; there's no money to get. And the EU could find itself in a very sticky situation, as ISO could start cancelling standards-related relationships with EU-based organizations like ECMA.

There isn't a chance in hell the EU can do anything here. If they start an investigation, this simply proclaims to the worlds that IBM also controls the EU enforcement arm; not that anyone looking at the way the EU has gone after Microsoft would cause anyone to think otherwise.

[Seaspray0]

EU has no jurisdiction

"International Standards Organization". That's what it is: an "International" organization, not a "European" organization. The EU doesn't decide their policy. And, if you haven't noticed, the EU is only interested in investigating anything that doesn't benefit europe.

[interoperate]

Why is Microsoft scared?

If there were no illegal or inappropriate actions taken by Microsoft or its partners during the ISO process, why is Microsoft so scared?

[Commander_Spock]

Re: "Why is Microsoft scared?"!

Here is one line of thinking - Redmond has always been afraid of the 800lb Gorilla that is IBM's OS/2 Warp; and, guess what (do you remember the fate of a company once called Netscape Communications); well, if Big Blue decides to set the 800lb Gorilla free to mate with IBM's Lotus Symphony (in a "No Holds Bar Scenario") it would be like getting a dose of your own medicine. (YUK)! Talk about "scary" things!

[jdzions]

Scared? Not what I see

Microsoft was unhappy with the notion of OOXML failing to become a standard. They played by the rules, resolved a whole lot of comments from the first round of balloting, and won approval. Now along comes IBM which starts playing a political game, outside ISO rules, trying to reverse a properly-made decision.

Scared? Hardly. Astounded that anyone is buying IBM's bs? A little.

[Penguinisto]

Survival.

Without the facade of a "standard" to point at, MS Office would become less and less relevant.

MS Office (and by extension, Windows) is pretty much the only real income Microsoft has these days, and they can't afford to have that diminish until/unless something else starts making them money.

/P

[Dalkorian]

worlds oldest profession

Anyone who's been paying attention can plainly see the ISO just
prostituted itself on a filthy street corner. It's a sad day indeed,
ISO certification used to mean more than "we gots to get paid!"

This bastardization known as OOXML is nothing more than a
patent trap that uses 6,000 pages of legalese to hide the fact
that's it's really a proprietary standard. There is NOTHING open
about this, except possibly the realization that M$ will once
again try to use their $$$ to kill off any competition so they can
keep their suckers - I mean "customers" - locked into a
proprietary standard.

Everyone can see this, only some people got paid to lie about it.

[Commander_Spock]

Legal Tender Or Not Legal Tender!

This article states in part; "Now that Office Open XML (OOXML) has been certified as an ISO standard, there is a possibility that the vote leading to that result will be challenged. It seems Microsoft is already counting on it..." How about we all wait and see if the "INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT B-A-N-K-S" start "counting on it" (Office Open XML (OOXML)) too. ;-) :-$ :-)

Read the subject line!

[Commander_Spock]

Oh Wait! Now "they" are sitting down and talking with the "bankers"!

Guess we do not have very long to get and answer. See if the "personal representative" from a certain U.S. company based in Redmond would be recognized here:

"Government and Business Leaders to attend IDB Group Annual Meeting in Miami, April 4?8"

"Microsoft's Bill Gates and IDB President Moreno will hold special session"

"Finance ministers, business leaders, civil society representatives and top artists from Latin America and the Caribbean will participate in the annual meeting of the Inter-American Development Bank, which this year is taking place in Miami, Florida, April 4?8".

"The IDB is the world?s largest regional development bank and the leading source of multilateral financing for Latin America and the Caribbean. In 2007 the IDB Group approved new operations totaling more than $9.6 billion".

http://www.iadb.org/NEWS/articledetail.cfm?artid=4477&language=En

At last, at last.... (and, a long time in coming)(huff... puff....) now we see some "sitting down" and "talking" with people (the bankers) that really matters. "Growing up/getting wiser" you say. ;-)

[Sumatra-Bosch]

To The Hague With Them!

Enough with the regulators' slapping contest. Ballmer in the dock in The Hague for crimes and attempted crime (OOXML) against humanity.

[Commander_Spock]

Also...

... have the ISO sign an agreement to pay users ten times the cost (in compensation) for attempted usage the MSOOXML Standards should any "interoperability issues" be experienced. Call it "THE XML USER BILL OF RIGHTS" and this could be administered by laws promulgated under the Geneva Convention. How about compensation for the smaller companies that were "killed off"? (Indelible Blue et al) :-(

[Thom101]

Outing IBM, others, from former Ecma head

The former head of standards body Ecma International (Jan van den Beld) has been blogging about the standards process and the Open XML vote from an insider's point of view. He lists some pretty outrageous examples of shenanigans from those opposed to Open XML standardization. For instance, Google joined several national standards bodies at the last minute (March 26, 27) just to vote no. In Italy, where one company should have one vote, IBM voted once and then its subsidiary voted as well. Anyway, check it out: http://janvandenbeld.blogspot.com/ and
http://janvandenbeld.blogspot.com/2008/04/hypocrisy.html