Comments on: Mozilla CEO says Apple's Safari auto-update 'wrong'

The Firefox browser is updated automatically, too. But that's different because people downloaded it on their own in the first place, says Mozilla chief John Lilly.

[Tinman52]

Bash Everyone for using this strategy then

Apple is just doing the same thing MS did with IE7. You can't fault a strategy that works and isn't illegal. It's sneaky, but at some point consumers have to take responsibility for what they do on their computers.

[jumpjetta]

Take responsibility??

Oh, my! Take responsibility for a part of my life and for stuff I
bought and control?? What a radical concept! No, I need to be able
to blame a successful corporation for all my problems!

[doshomik]

Its wrong!

comparing Windows Update or IE update with 'Safari for Windows Auto Update' is just dumb. IE is part of Windows, like the same way Safari is part of MacOSX. Microsoft & Apple can auto push the update for IE or Safari on their OS only. But When I don't even installed Safari on my Windows Machine means I don't want Safari, Apple can't do this and push auto update on my windows. PERIOD!

[shycelticwitch]

Safari on Windows

Is like putting new tires on a car that doesn't run. If the OS isn't
any good, what you put into it is going to run like crap too.
Duh. Tis true that Safari is for Apples, but when iTunes came
out, Windblows fans were JEALOUS and therefore Apple caved to
the demand and gave them their own version. Seems to me I
have been hearing the same rhetoric from them now about
Safari... how cool it is, how well it runs, etc. But it seems that no
one has tried to figure out WHY it doesn't play well with
Windows, but plays perfectly with Mac OS... they just sit there
and WHINE about it and call us dirty names, as usual.

[LCMilstein]

Except...

Except that I DID download and install the Apple Updater, which I'm thrilled informs me of cool new Apple Products. Much like my Google Mobile Updater on blackberry; it tells me when new versions are available even when I didn't install the old version. I think this is good, in case I now want the new one. If Mozilla had a separate auto-updater app and I had Firefox installed, I'd expect it to tell me about the new Thunderbird, no? Perhaps a setting with the ability to opt for updates on all apps or just installed apps would make people happier?

[bobcode]

It's not like IE7

IE7 was forced. Apple lets you opt out, through it should remember you're not interested.

[bobcode]

it's not auto install

Windows will auto install in the background. Apple doesn't do this, even on the Mac.

[keith.r.benedict]

Wrong

The Windows Update feature allows you to review items that it wants to install. You can un-check the IE7 update if you like--as I did.

[kelmon]

IE7 Legitimate Software Update

Suggesting that pushing Safari on Windows users is somehow
equivalent to Microsoft pushing IE7 is ridiculous. IE remains a core
component of Windows, rightly or wrongly, and IE7 represented a
legitimate software update to IE6. Safari 3.1, however, represents
an entirely new application, assuming that the user had not already
installed earlier versions.

[amandachuck]

should be unchecked by default

I have no issue with this other than it should be unchecked by
default. At least apple gives you an option. I can't tell you all the
crap RealPlayer and others force down your throat on Windows,
without the option to only install parts.

[megazone]

I agree

I don't have too much of an issue with Apple hawking their new SW, but don't auto-check it in an UPDATE application - unless the person has Safari installed. Then it *is* an update.

A lot of users aren't very computer literate, and they're used to the application updating existing software. So they may not even be aware that they *don't* have this 'Safari' thing installed, thinking it is just another component like iTunes or QuickTime.

[kelmon]

Uneasy Even With Unchecked

Given a choice between Software Update enabling the Safari 3.1
"update" by default or not then I'd vote for the lesser of the two
evils and have it disabled by default. However, I am uneasy with
the whole idea of Software Update being used as a medium to
install entirely new software that is not required for existing
application.

[megazone]

Not the same

IE7 is an *update* to IE. You only got IE7 if you already had an earlier version of IE installed. Firefox is the same way - MOST software is the same way.

Apple is 'updating' Safari 3.1 for people who don't have Safari installed at all! It isn't an 'update' it is a new install, and that's not the same at all. They're pitching it as an update, and it isn't.

[jumpjetta]

What a non-story.

I get a thousand ads a week asking me to buy something on
websites. I see this tactic as about the same, except the product
is free (and probably superior to anything natively on Windows),
the "ad" is visually (and sonically) unobtrusive, and the user can
easily opt out.

If a user is so clueless as to not pay attention to auto-update
dialogs, they deserve the awful fate of having a superior browser
installed on their machine.

[jumpjetta]

Mozilla...

Oh, and of course the CEO of Mozilla thinks it's a bad idea... he
didn't get to it first and hasn't got a product he could have done
that with. And he might lose 1 or 2 points of market share. Oh my!

Maybe he's actually worried Apple's got a better product than he
does. One never knows.

[BWright123]

Too Many Paranoid and Plain Dumb People

Apple gives people a superior piece of software and the paranoid
among us see invasions of privacy, malware and other bogeymen.
Hey, get real. It is a smart, effective way for Apple to promote
itself and it hurts no one. If you don't want its software, delete it.

I, for one, think it is incredibly convenient and a great way to
spread the usage of a great browser.

[dhbruns2]

Mozilla DOA

I thought it was strange for Itunes to list Safari as an "update". But I've used it on the Mac so figured, why not? Downloaded and installed. Double-click desktop icon. Starts loading Apple Start page and BOOOOM. Browser exits without so much as a Dr. Watson. Perhaps it's not made to work on Win 2K? If not, why didn't the installer tell me that? I think I'll uncheck it next time.

[dhbruns2]

Ooops

Subject should have been "Safari DOA". Firefox is my browser of choice. Didn't mean to disparage them.

[Goodbye Helicopter]

probably not for win2k

It probably is not intended for Win2k seeing as how even MS is no
longer supporting Win2K! EOL'd, 10 years old. let it die.

[gefitz]

You're right, it IS common...

...to see this sort of thing done. However, companies who do business this way are mostly seen as sleazy, illegitimate, gray-market (at best) and wasters of time/money.

Interesting that Apple, home of "Selling an Impression", would decide to go the route of so many millions of garbage, spyware, and porn purveyors before (and after) them!

[_dietrich]

That's ok, don't worry Mozilla

Apple Safari doesn't have much of a 'reputation' as far as Windows browsers go.

I myself use Linux with 'on demand' VMware WinXP and did take a look at Safari 3.1 today. It just isn't much competition for Firefox 3 (currently testing 3.0 beta 4).

[Kelson]

Also, IE7 is actually an update

...since chances are you already have IE6 on your machine if it offers you IE7.

Similarly, on MacOS, Safari is always an actual update, since it comes with the OS.

[Kelson]

Should be unchecked and labeled

This is one of those rare cases where Microsoft got something right with their design and Apple got it wrong. Microsoft offers things like new .NET runtimes and Silverlight through Microsoft Update, but they're clearly labeled as optional, and they're unchecked by default. You can't (so far) accidentally install Silverlight or Windows Media Player 11 by trying to update IE.

[Dana Gardner]

Start blogging, Martin

But what do you think about this, Martin? You report some
other takes here, but I'd benefit from your take. Spread your
wings, man. Go beyond the reporting, the start blogging.

As for me, MS bundled IE unethically and illegally by extending
its monopoly to the web. Apple, like others, needs to take
particularly harsh measures to get a level playing field.

Apple doing this to MS's base doesn't bother me, though it
doesn't really pass the sniff test generally.

[AppleSuxLeo]

No Apple "swiss cheeze" on my Puter !

esp. no QuickSand...which is a security nightmare.

[mikestatic1]

Don't Worry

Your Mom's Pentium I computer won't be able to handle the download.

[WetcoastBob]

Apple's Safari auto-update 'wrong'

If you don't want it.. UNCHECK the box!

End of story.

[rmnesse]

Safari broke my computer

I installed Safari on my XP system because it was reported to be fast. But it made my computer slow to a crawl, everything. I could not even uninstall from the Control Panel, I had to Restore. Too bad. Beware

[imnota]

Unfortunately I have to use it!

In my role as a web developer I have to use Safari to test our river for compatibility for the 2% of people who use Safari to access them.

Since installing the betas of Safari it's been pushing me to install quicktime and itunes - two items I really don't want on my pc.

Although according to some on this thread Safari 'is a superior piece of technology' I still find myself confining it to last place in terms of usage (behind even betas of other browsers) but this is a personal preference (which is fortunately shared by 98% of our website visitor).

Maybe Microsoft could learn from this though. How about offering all those Mac users using MS Office a free os update to Windows?

After all, people can just uncheck it if they don't want it right? ;-)

[Lee in San Diego]

If you are doing it correctly

If you are developing your sites to meet web standards then you
don't need to test them on Safari.

[setgo]

I guess you were trying to be clever.

What's really stupid about what you said is that Windows is a $100+ software. If MS offered a free version, h@ll yes I would install it on my Intel Mac that can run both OSes. ;-)

[jscott418]

Update should be just that!

Were is it that update should include new software.This is showing Apple for what it really is though. A manipulative company that will try anything to convert Windows user's over to Apple.
Mac Fans who will say you have the option of not installing Safari miss the point as I know they will. The point is that their is other ways to advertise a new product rather then include it in a piece of software designed to update software you choose to install on your computer.Apple is becoming more cult like all the time!

[GeoffW39]

Mozilla and Safari

Why not just say no?
Am I being naive or can people still read instructions, understand
them, and make a decision for themselves?
Or is this where anti-trust litigation begins to stifle commercial
progress???

[imnota]

just say no? then no and no again?

I think saying no would almost be acceptable (although when I go to the supermarket I don't expect them to add lots of freebies to my basket for me to remove them if I don't want them)

However I shouldn't have to say no every time the software decides to try an update!

It gets irritating having to remember to uncheck the download every time and eventually you just give up.

Perhaps this is a new Apple tactic - proliferation through irritation? ;-)

[kelmon]

From The Mac Perspective - This Is Wrong

I've been a Mac user for the past 5-years and use Safari as my primary browser but even I'll say that this is wrong.
No software company should be installing new software on your computer without your permission and it should
always be assumed that the user does not want it. It drives me nuts that Sun Microsystems enables the "Install
Google/Yahoo! Toolbar for IE" when they update the Java runtime under Windows, and this is exactly the same. I
don't need a toolbar for IE to run Java and you don't need Safari to run QuickTime or iTunes. Sure, the option to
install Safari can be disabled but the point is that it should NEVER be enabled by default in the first place.

I like Safari on the Mac but happily concede that many users on Windows have already made a conscious decision to
switch to Firefox from IE. Because of this I can quite appreciate why people are angry about this - Apple is trying to
force their own browser on you when you already choose another and they are not respecting your decision. Further,
Mozilla managed to capture about 20% of the browser market with Firefox without such tactics in a time when the
only browser was IE. Clearly, now that the public are aware that other browsers exist it is unnecessary for Apple to
push Safari at Windows users and they should compete fairly as Mozilla has done.

[Lee in San Diego]

As a Mac fan I agree

Let them wallow in Explorer. Eventually they may want to get out of
the muck, but that is their choice.

[laynemoseley]

good night, take responsibility for your pc

All you have to do is uncheck that box and you don't have to
install the software. It's not like they are installing it without permission, they are just trying to promote their browser, which
by the way is the faster internet browser on the planet.

People are always trying to find ways to blame other people for
their problems. It's like, oh my gosh, my computer crashed and I
think it was apple's fault because they make better computers
anyways and they just happened to make it convenient to install
their faster web browser on my crappy windoze box. Good night
people, take responsibility for your own actions and know what's
going on your computer. LEARN TO FREAKING USE A COMPUTER,
WHETHER IT'S A MAC OR A PC.

[bmbingham]

Apple the new Microsoft

I used to be a happy macbook user but my annoyance with apple grows more and more every day. I just bought a new HP laptop and started using windows media player again. It's been years since I've used windows media player. I also said screw DRM I now download from amazon mp3. And the iPod, well I sold it on eBay. Now if the zero feedback winner of the auction would just pay me. I'd buy a sandisk sansa, but I figure I'll spend the next 2 weeks going through ebays non paying bidder dispute process. Then go through the relisting process and hope I get paid next time. Oh yeah keep an eye out for my macbook on ebay just as soon as I get my files transfered to the new laptop.

[drisko]

Could you explain?

Nothing in your comment supports your view that Apple is now like
Microsoft (used to be?) Basically you just say that you're selling
your Apple stuff and having horrible luck with eBay buyers. That
has nothing to do with Apple business practices. You should either
qualify your position or not post unrelated comments with titles
that suggest the comments are related to the article.

[AppleSuxLeo]

I could not agree more...

Amazon MP3 signals the downfall of iTunes. It`s a no-brainer ! No DRM , much higher bitrate , and lower cost.It also works on ANY device. And best of all all the major labels are on board.I never used any Apple products because of the "locked in" approach they take , not to mention their products are way over priced. Amazon MP3 is the greatest thing to happen to online music sales.

[kydude51]

What...No Tabs???

Safari looks nice but we tab users can never go back. Plus it's too many clicks to edit a url.

[drisko]

I think there are tabs

You may have to enable tabbed-browsing through the preferences
menu, but I think tabbed browsing is already enabled. You should
be able to click File->New Tab or I think use Ctrl+T.