Comments on: Bill Gates to Congress: Let us hire more foreigners

In a familiar pitch, Microsoft chairman argues companies like his can't find enough qualified Americans and calls for the U.S. government to loosen its visa policies.

[jennemede]

Missing the point again!

This is NOT about saving money! This is about saving talent! Foreign American grads are paid the same as American American grads!

[Ice Moose]

Read something other than CNET's version for a change

http://www.forbes.com/technology/2008/03/12/bill-gates-innovation-tech-sciences-cx_bw_0312gates.html

H1B or immigraition visas weren't the primary or the only focus of the speech.

And better yet, read the written testimony
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/mar08/presspass/download/press/2008/03-12GatesWrittenTestimony.doc

[Commander_Spock]

What happened to the saying - "Charity Begins At Home"

"An (audibly irritated Gates) replied that when companies like Microsoft hire top foreign engineers, they create jobs for B and C American students around them. If Microsoft weren't able to hire those top engineers in the United States, it'd be doing so in other countries and surrounding them with native B and C students, he said." :-( :-( :-( !

Read the subject line!

[bwvla]

giving vs taking.

It would be a scandal if parents kicked their kids to the street in favor of adopting "better" ones. Dad son not a star athlete? Trade them in for a center forward! Little Julie not sing like an angel, get a new daughter who does!

Its considered a parental responsibility to nurture children, even if they aren't the next Einstien or Michael Jordan. We even take responsibility in raising mentally retarded children, cause thats what our values are.

Strangely we are far stronger because of it.

Why suddenly are our business leaders, the parents of the working world, now allowed by our government to kick their kids to the curb. Joe in IT only an average performer, trade him for cheaper or smarter model. Even worse, it seems now companies are not even required to put in an effort.

Sure we are dealing with adults not kids here. But treat anyone as replaceable they quickly become that. Show someone you got their back, they often turn around and look out for yours.

Even if we loose our wealth as a nation, isn't it better to share the company of people who will stick up for one another. The moment we give that up we live in a culture where we tear one another down instead of building each other another up.

[bwvla]

If it were that simple

Pretty much EVERY American (and canadian, european, etc) job could be replaced by someone in asia, mexico, or south America willing to make less.

[Commander_Spock]

Big, Big Mistake....

... and; yes, it is indeed not "that simple" to think/believe that "Pretty much EVERY American (and Canadian, European, etc) job could be replaced by someone in Asia, Mexico, or South America willing to make less..." All the more reasons why "The CONCORDE" is not in commercial operation today - because if it was a question of being able to accept sub-standard quality workmanship then there would have been thousands of "CONCORDES" flying around the world today. Super-Sonic air travel experience is not the same as experiencing the "Blue Screen of Death" and Bill Gates et al should stick to what they are known to be an experts in doing; and, overall education and training of American Engineering workers are not "arenas" that can be created by them.

[bbroeman30]

Not enough US programmers?

I work for a company that likes to hire foreign workers, and lay off lots of US programmers. Most of these workers can not find a job. These are very experienced people, and they are very good. It is companies like this that are ruining our economy. When people can't work, how are they supposed to buy things and contribute to the economy?
Not enough workers my A** ...

[joelam888]

Yes

If layed off workers can't find another job, how good can they be?

[cyberspittle]

Microsoft didn't hire me

During a period of unemployment I had applied to numerous positions in Microsoft. My guess is that Microsoft doesn't want to hire enough Americans. I have nothing against H1-B visas, however, I feel Microsoft doesn't do enough to hire Americans. They should be scouring American schools and becoming involved in the community. They should give scholarships to kids with a goal of potential employment. Call it corporate responsibility. Personally, I believe that the greater a person becomes (wealth,etc.), the greater responsibility they have towards society.

Fact is, what Microsoft is really saying, is that they don't trust foreigners enough in their home countries to expand the company their. They want to keep their intellectual property in the U.S. All the work done overseas is grunge work (IMHO).

[JoeF2]

What about qualifications?

Reading through your post, I was waiting for any hint about your qualifications.
Or are you saying that "corporate responsibility" means hiring unqualified people just because they are Americans?

[joelam888]

Problem is you

They do have scholarship and internship programs.

They receive more than 10k+ resumes/day. To make it, your resume needs the keywords.

Honestly, they have very aggressive recruiters. If they can't find you, it's likely your problem.

BTW, they look for A students, you can't make it if you can't answer their logical/tech questions!

[lgarcia1978]

look at it this way...

you bring out a very good point, especially about "the greater a person becomes (wealth, etc) that greater responsibility they have towards society".

Can you and I both agree "America is the richest country in the world" but then again it spends 3-4 times more of its money on building larger jails, then helping build schools for children. Do you not agree, that before rich people like Gates should be pouring their own wealth into rebuilding america, american people should demand this from their own government?

[g15host]

Bush=C student, Gates=dropout

So to point to US graduate statistics and saying we must hire A
students seems to imply the average techie are just drones or race
horses. We can judge them by a score. Yet they should be brilliant.
Jobs (another dropout) one said to the effect that A-list people hire
A-list people, so what exactly is going on here somebody explain?
...

[g15host]

It all works out...

Perhaps Gates should hire the B and C students to run his company
and do the recruitment and hiring of the needed grade-A tech
labor.

[joelam888]

Bush is from a rich family, Gates is an entrepreneur

Corporations want A students. You still don't get it?

[4Travel]

Allways hire smarter people then you

Smart managers always hire smarter people than they are. Then the give them the ability to do things. Gates certainly knows this and he executes.

The issue Gates brought up is a very real problem. The US is not encouraging it's native sons and daughters to become engineers and scientists. This is in spite of the fact that the salaries for degreed engineers have shot up in the past few years. I am in the process of hiring 4 engineers, thus I have a very real and current understanding of the difficulty of finding good people and the current engineering salary range.

I think that part of the problem is that Hollywood has spent years glorifying the legal profession. This has filled up the law schools and provided the US with a huge surplus of legal talent. At the same time, engineering programs have roughly the same number of graduates as they had in the 1970s. Folks, our need for engineers is much greater today than it was in the 1970s. If you think that Bill Gates does not know what he is talking about on the issue of engineers and scientists, then I am afraid that you a out of touch with reality.

[g15host]

The corporations and lobbyists?..

I guess the foreigners must be smarter or have a better education
system then... None of the Indian or Chinese born worker could've
afforded a $1000/yr education in their countries yet according to
Bill are better workers.

[lgarcia1978]

thank you..

thank you soo much for brining this out.

[jennemede]

In summary, get competitive

Want to get hired? Go the extra mile. Take the initiative, put your money where your mouth is and train yourself. Offer the whole package AND more. No one owes you a living. Show that you DESERVE to be hired with merit over the next guy, whoever he may be or wherever he may come from. TEACH your kids to study hard, support them, help them see that SUBSTANCE matters if they want not to become dispensable: integrity, hard work, perseverance, mobility of the mind, GOOD SOLID SENSE.

This is the problem with having too much, Americans. Imagine becoming so hungry that you can lay down your pride for a while. THAT is what it takes.

[CompEng]

Macro vs. Mcro

On a micro-level, you're right. The answer is *always* to get off you a** and do more if you want your situation to improve.
But some macro policies are better than others. Not in this instance, but sometimes changing the world is both possible and good.

[lgarcia1978]

wow

cannot agree anymore with what you have said. as an american myself, I am getting sick and tired of how we as a nation have become soo greedy and we are passing on this greed to our kids also.

thank you for posting this....at least ONE american come to his/her senses.

[davemesaaz]

Google founder Sergey Brin isn't exactly native Born

Some of the greatest minds in American history weren't exactly native born. Andrew Carnegie was born in Scotland Einstein was born in Austria and you know what their ideas put millions of Americans to work.

I would rather have them in the United States instead of in Scotland Russia or in China. We used to have the lowest tax rates of the industrialized countries. Now we don't and they staying in their home countries.

[jaypres]

Google and Apple have plenty of talents

US is not losing talents overseas. It is MS losing them to Google,
Apple and other innovative companies. Bill Gates should spend
more time making his Windows better. He is in the wrong place.

[joelam888]

Google also cries for H-1B

Can you do some researches? The whole Silicon Valley wants H-1B.

[emacs19]

TOTALLY Agree!

If u want to be competitive... Be proactive and train yourself. Why should companies train you? If you dont even have the motivation to take the extra step to further your education, how can you expect companies to sponsor you? Crazy LOGIC!

Go train yourself, you will definately be competitive and will find a good job! And in all fairness replace people on H1B or what not!

It's silly to protect jobs here. What people DO NOT UNDERSTAND is these companies can easily go an open their bases in INDIA, China, Canada etc, and hire the individuals who took the initiatives to train themselves here (or overseas). What incentive do they have to spend extra money to train YOU? These are private companies not some charity funded by you!

People like Gates are evaluate the strategic perspective to make the country competitive that folks here refuse to see. That itself is a reason why folks should go back to school and learn the fundamental!

Look at the UK! Their HSMP program is so successful. London has overthrown New York as the global financial hub. Top foreign candidate in US Business Schools go and work for US companies in London because of the Visa issues here.

[emacs19]

These are private companies not a charity! :P

Think about the investors! Why would they want to invest their money on companies with higher overheads.

[croftale]

Not enough workers is a crock

We were acquired by another company. The first thing they told us was that we had better think about doing something else in the company or find another job because they outsource IT. Our programmers were told that they weren't going to code anymore that they would become project managers to the Indians who would be doing the coding. A number of our programmers left because, hey, call them crazy, but they like to code,not push paper. We pushed manufacturing overseas because of cheap labor, why should IT be any different. Oh, but there is growth in the service industries for those displaced American workers. You want fries with that?

[RainCaster]

change the priority

Prince Bill wants to bring in more cheap IP- hurrah for him. Now, if he wold take the LONG TERM approach and instead lobby congress to give us a better educational system, then we would have the workers needed for tomorrow.

[Sea of Cortez]

Note to super rich (idiot) Bill Gates

Bill Gate, you want more engineers, ask for our government to do for American people same things that those foreign countries from which you want engineers from do for their people.

That is
1- Invest our Taxes in our people & society rather than wasting it on a gargantuan military & one unnecessary war after another, i.e, Iraq war having wasted $2T of our Taxes so far.
2- Tax the super rich (JUST) at the same rate as the average folks, for example you pay same
7.5% of your income as FICA Taxes as people who make up to $75K per year.

As a result of which we should get Universal health care & Universal education as citizens of
Europe do, from where you are so eager to hire foreign engineers from, rightly so too because
after all for example a French citizen can get up to their PHD for FREE whereas in US a paltry
BS degree can cost $100K and more! And same French citizen can go to hospital/doctor for
FREE , well for Taxes they pay which is same as we pay for people making less than $75K,
whereas an American can be looking at a $50K hospital bill for simplest of medical needs.

To see how lack of Universal health care alone is killing average American, and thus US economy, check out this Blog:
http://www.anoox.com/news/show_selected_article.php?article=104

[lgarcia1978]

Vaild

Absolutely true Sea of Cortez, I wish people can think more like you, our America would be so strong.

[bluemist9999]

Is a grad degree useful in comp sci?

I don't think it's useful unless you are doing research. For example, Microsoft's Singularity OS probably needs people with grad degrees for the research.

But for every day-in day-out software development, I don't see how having a grad degree in comp sci helps programmers. I believe the key is to have effective skills and be able to get the job done well.

So I don't see why focusing on how many H-1B visa holders have grad degrees is relevant. I believe the more relevant question is: to what extent are qualified American programmers being displaced by H-1B visa holders?

[shingwong2]

Not as much as work experience

IMO a lot of foreigner want to get an "American" degree to improve their chance in the US. If their undergrad degree is in US they wouldn't want to get a grad degree anyways.

Grad degree in CS is not that useful, it help, but not as good as a 2-3 years work experience. It is even more so if you factor in the lost income in that 2-3 years.

[The_Decider]

Yes/No

If all you are going to be is an API monkey, then no.

Programming is merely a subset of Computer Science.

[joelam888]

MS wants smart kids only.

Kids who have just a GPA of 2.0 or are clueless during their tech interviews are unqualified (not smart enough).

[supoman]

Not to pick on my friends from India but..

My company hires a TON of people from India(almost exclusively). These people are well education but by no means more qualified than anyone else in the industry whom I've met. I will admit though that I have worked with some exceptional individuals who came by way of China, Africa, Canada and Israel. I can understand hiring GOOD people but if you're only trying to hire CHEAP people then you are doing potential American workers a disservice.

[joelam888]

Fact is: Unqualified vs. H-1B

The qualified people you met are employed right now.

[bwvla]

I agree

I've worked with Indian counterparts at my last 2 contracts and outproduced them 3 to 1. I've also interviewed many H1b's and the rate of competent candidates is no higher or lower than with Americans.

Now this is not to say there are not gifted H1Bs out there. I've worked with some over the years that were scary smart! Honestly when the first round of H1Bs hit the tech industry in the 90's we were getting the best of the best.

But today I KNOW we are no longer getting the best in many cases. I feel this points to the sad fact that the system is being abused by some to save a few dollars.

I don't want to say every company is abusing the system, I think there are those using it as intended. But I believe others are using it much like a technical loophole in the income tax system.

[supoman]

The US is going to have to train workers

We can't keep sending the good paying jobs away. Bill Clinton said that this should be a priority back in the early 1990's. That the US should retrain it's work force away from industrial to technical. 15 years later it aint happened yet! Congress or the NEXT President is going to have to make this a priority.

[joelam888]

There're tons of colleges around you

Isn't college a place to train kids?

[lgarcia1978]

Bill Clinton or anyone else...

...they all are the same. Since when did politicians do good for their people?

As an American I have been observing this for quite some many years nows... "lets rebuild our country" and this slogan keep coming back like a bad penny every four years. Every presidential election the first thing you hear "the country is broken, make me the president, and we will rebuild it". Has it happened - I ask my American citizens?

I assure you, start observing every election campaign, every four years and the candidate will keep saying "country is broken". My question now is "when is the country ever not broken?" It's for filling their pockets and that's it.

Let's put our mouth where the money is...politicians are not going to do now or EVER. When we had a good president (JFK) - we all know what our own government did to him.

[shingwong2]

70k to 90k is not average salary

I am already making 100k and I was an H1-B until recently.

The average for my level is about 90k to 120k. Mind you, my employer is not as cheap as MS.

[joelam888]

That's entry-level in Seattle, not CA

Seattle also has a lower cost of living in CA.