Comments on: C# set to take Java's crown as Java drops 50 percent

The Java world looks to be in for a hit...and not the kind you brag about.

[BALTHOR1]

From start to finish show me Paint Shop Pro being written in code.You couldn't do it because that's not how it's done!This stuff is declining because it doesn't work.

What the hell are you talking about??? What do you think Paint Shop Pro was written in? Cute Wiggly Lines???

No. It was almost certainly written in C++. In CODE. And considering that the majority of applications running the majority of corporations out there are written in Java now, you would do well to learn a little before you speak.

[theopensourcerer]

Of course it could just be that Java, being Open Source and very widely used, has enough freely available materials on-line to not need to spend hundreds of bucks on books?

Just a thought...

It seems that the Tech Journalist community is just salivating at anything, ANYTHING, which might insinuate that Java's days are numbered; it would make for GREAT COPY, wouldn't it?

But that's not what this study is about: it's about *books*. Newer, lesser known technologies on the upswing are what sells. Java sold tons of books while most developers were learning it. Nowadays, a lot of people are learning about Ruby (not using it, mind you; Ruby on Rails has far fewer actual users than most people think), so O'Reilly sells a lot of Ruby books.

Java developers, for the most part, don't read JAVA books anymore. They read Software Engineering books, Pattern books, Testing and Process books, etc... Most real, professional programmers out there use Java (look at the numbers of active projects as a real indicator of actual viability); so most of them are no longer interested in reading "Intro" books, which make up the vast majority of computer book sales.

[TimBowden]

Matt, I think we're seeing the world being divided into two. One one hand, MS is pushing c# hard. Those focused on using Windows as the preferred platform are moving in that direction.

On the other hand, the browser is also becoming the platform of choice for lightweight apps. In a fully connected world where we use a large number of small apps it doesn't make sense to have everything installed locally. In an age of fat network pipes it's more convenient to automatically download the latest version when you use it, then throw it away when you've finished. It's so easy that most web users don't even realize that's what they're doing.

This is not a new threat to MS. Netscape and Java first presented as a network platform in the mid 1990's. MS managed to kill that by spiking Java and cutting of Netscape's air supply. This time though, there is much wider and deeper market (read alternate vendors) understanding of the value of a neutral network platform. It's well understood that being at the mercy of MS is not a pleasant place to be. There's now huge pressure on MS to bring their network platform (IE and related technologies) into standards conformance.

I suspect Java has become heavyweight enough that it's no longer part of the lightweight app scenario. It's now firmly rooted in the enterprise space. Its place in the original network platform scenario has been taken by a well developed Javascript combined with any number of web frameworks like Ruby on Rails. It's instructive that the Python numbers (though not as strong as Ruby's) are also showing the same trend.

It will be interesting to see how this develops in the coming years. MS's ability to dominate the market has been eroded by anti-trust issues in the same way IBM was crippled. I can't help thinking MS has become the old IBM as Bill Gates so famously feared.

[drhowarddrfine]

A number of years ago, my local baseball team was in the World Series. NBC talked about how the opposing teams fans were better because they were lined up to buy souvenir hats and balls, etc. while the lines at our stadium were short by comparison. But the thing is, they forget that our fans already own all that stuff and are recognized as the best fans in baseball by all the sporting magazines.

The same is true of Java. C# is newer and Microsoft has more marketing going on making people believe they just have to learn it or die. But Java has been around longer and more people use it but don't need the books most C# learners are trying to get.

From another site that monitors such things, C# is far, far behind Java in usage.

[jeromatron]

One could argue that this is the arrogance of O'Reilly thinking that they constitute the writing on the wall. Also it seems that this could mean a number of things. One could argue that C# is not that simple of a language. One could argue that online docs have gotten better for Java - especially since more of the Java community is open-source in nature than C#. For example, there are free online PDF books that can be printed through a service like lulu. One could argue that more Microsoft developers are concerned about being certified.
Technologies will come and go, but it seems strange to me that things like this are circulated as foregone conclusions of correlation.

[PACSferret]

the stats are a little interesting but a long way from being an accurate metric (as some of the comments above point out). For one, it doesn't take account of the maturity of the developer market in each case - Java is pretty much saturated in term of the developers who may have an interest in that direction (other, of course, than new entrants). C# is new kid/block. Without some kind of analysis of who is buying the books, the value of the stats is limited. For example: how many of the c# purchases are developers who java during the day and want to start tinkering with c# for fun?

[Eyal-Shilony]

Right,... you will be amazed how many developers actually use C# as their daily day job and throw Java out of the window.

I respect any developer that favorite is language of choice, but saying that a C# developer is playing with it for fun,
just because it's C#, it's an insult to the C# community, none the less, I found the argument baseless,
Java and C# are similar, at least in their concept, yeah java is older,
but it doesn't mean anything, so don't claim anything you sir don't know,
C# is powerful just like Java each with its own pros and cons.

C# is part of the .NET platform that evolves and raniking its way to the top of the software industry in every possible aspect, so don't underate it!

[galacticcruiser]

"Using book sales as surrogate tea leaves" to make this prediction is misleading and dumb...

[odubtaig]

[b]"Of course it could just be that Java, being Open Source and very widely used, has enough freely available materials on-line to not need to spend hundreds of bucks on books?"[/b]

Bing! I don't think Java (or rather the JVM) has been Open Source long enough for that to have an impact but there is plenty of freely available material on the internet, even the mildy outdated but still relevant books available from http://mindview.net/ (the 4th edition of Thinking in Java is not free) have to be denting overall sales.

I don't imagine Version Control with Subversion is making any major sales, but then it is free to download under Creative Commons Attribution License (CCAL) from http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ so the only reason to buy it is if, like me, you find it easier to get on with the printed page than the electronic document or you feel the authors deserve your hard-earned for a job well done.

How ironic that O'Reilly should publish CCAL works then use book sales as the basis or their opinion on the relative popularity of a language, after all, like attracts like and I doubt as many C# books are released for free as well as available in print.

[rezwits]

That is idiotic data. It doesn't necessarily mean the language is dying. It could just mean that people have enough books on it.

[ACLAC]

Free courses in all programing language
http://javaforjava.brinkster.net/index.html