Comments on: E-tracking, coming to a DMV near you

CNET News.com's Declan McCullagh digs into latest federal brainstorm to keep tech tabs on citizens' driving habits.

[GEBERWEIN]

E-tracking vehicles

I believe the Fourteenth Ammendment to the Constitution covers the privacy of persons in vehicles in this case. This is the ammendment that requires Police to obtain warrants to search a vehicle unless there is probable cause that evidence might be destroyed because of the mobility of the vehicle. The rulings cited in teh article refers to the use of survellience cameras which are government installed on government property. It does not invalidate earlier Supreme Court rulings that cars are de facto extensions of a persons home. In order to place an electronic tracking device on private property the government would probably need a court issued warrant. This is especially true if the citizen is being required to pay for the device. Then the use of the data for criminal prosecution or speeding violations would need a search warrant for the information since it is the property of the citizen.

Congress does have an almost rabid attitude against the bugging of private citizens. This concept will probably go down in flames like several others in the recent past. I also doubt the ACLU will be idle on this one.

[declan00]

Actually

Two things:
* You're probably thinking of the Fourth Amendment
* The two cases I cited dealt with tracking devices placed by the government on suspects' cars, not government property.

[osbjmg]

Overall, this is bad.

So the more you drive, the more you pay I presume. I also presume road taxes, where they are currently received, will be removed? What about trucks? They cause the majority of road wear. This looks like a front to me, the system would need to be huge. I could see this being good if we guarantee anonymity (which probably won't happen) and those of us that drive less, will not have to pay so much for roads. This is especially useful for people without cars, they won't have to pay for our roads.

[John.Q.Public]

Pre 1996 Cars are looking better and better

Older, pre-1996 cars are looking better and better with these proposals. Especially cars made before 1990 that have NO computers, etc in them. My wife says with all the hybrids getting 50+ mpg they are not paying "road taxes & gasoline" taxes, hence the goverment must do something to get the money from hybrid owners.

[Eskiegirl302]

I FORMATION PLEASE

Hey does anyone know of a country where I can go and live that is actually free? Ours here in the sorry ole usa (anymore) is becoming more and more like the very ones they are telling us need to be changed. Changed for whom? Changed for what? I think all the people who want to live as politicians, bureaucrats, chaotic misfits, and the like should go find another corner of the world to live in, and let me live peacefully.

Eskie

[R. U. Sirius]

Insanity

This is getting insane. I thought usage fees were covered in the taxes we pay for gasoline, DMV registration, and traffic tickets.

This goverment has gone to far and is becoming more like the communist party every day.

Dude

Your comment is so 20th century. While I don't like the idea of DMV Central monitoring me 24x7x365, don't ya think that the "communist party" analogy is a little dated?

[JayPJay]

But could be very good.

In my view, congestion pricing and other forms of value pricing such as distance-based fees hold a lot of promise, if correctly applied. Regarding the privacy issue, please read this quotation from the University of California Transportation Center magazine,
Access No. 26
PAYING FOR ROADS
New Technology for an Old Dilemma
By Paul Sorensen and Brian Taylor. They point out that distance-based tolling proposals take into account the privacy of users:

??for example, drivers would periodically download billing data from the onboard unit onto a smart card, then upload the data to the billing agency via a card reader at a filling station or on a home computer. The transfer process would be divided into two transactions. The first would upload user identification and total amount owed. Then a second, anonymous connection would report the division of the bill to different jurisdictions. Jurisdictions would thus receive the appropriate revenues, but the government would never know where or when any individual had traveled, only the total amount owed.?

The whole article is at: http://www.uctc.net/access/26/Access%2026%20-%2002%20-%20New%20Technology%20for%20an%20Old%20Dilemma.pdf

Does this mean there can't be abuse of privacy? Of course not. Same goes for credit cards, IRS records, medical records, etc. But the benefits can outweigh the risks. We need a fair and reliable source of funding that accounts for the true value of transportation, including external costs and benefits. Ideally, the procceds would make public transportation more accessible and attractive. That's what's happening in London. No wonder the UK is thinking of expanding the London cordon and adding distance-based fees nationwide.

[Ms Jean]

Hmmmm This still stinks

Consider the millions of grant monies being poured into perusing this technology....wouldn't all that dough cover these so called "transportation" costs. I mean really what and who needs this money retrieved for "congestion pricing" or "distance based fees" What the heck does all that mean REALLY??????
It means some government big wig needs a raise.
I don't even own a car and I still think it stinks.

[newsreader33333]

back country

So, if I am way in the back country (where I live) and out of sight of the satellites so the spy chip in my vehicle cannot communicate - said vehicle is going to stop running, with no user-accessible override?
What happens when one of these spy chip equipped vehicles strands campers who decide to spend the night in a canyon (again, out of sight of the satellites) and die while attempting to hike out to civilization?
What kind of idiot dreamed up this system?

[declan00]

GPS bugs killing your car

Good point. If you're driving under a dense forest canopy, in a long tunnel (perhaps during a traffic jam), or in a canyon, you'd be out of luck.

Perhaps "pre-bug" vehicles will become popular among outdoor enthusiasts and tunnel commuters.

[CyberWoLfman]

My predictions are coming true sooner than I thought! LOL

Oh, this is bizarre. It's almost like somebody from the government is reading my Web pages and getting ideas from them. LOL

I even mentioned the Department of Transportation as being one of the likely agencies to put this through: www.cyberwolfman.com/id_chip_implants.htm (one of my older pages, so not very fancy).

The bad thing is, they'll probably do it, and few people will try to stop them, much like what happened with the Real ID Act that I tried to warn people about (www.cyberwolfman.com/blog_2005.htm#may_10_2005).

*Sighs* Maybe it's because of all the fluoride in the drinking water (www.all-natural.com/fleffect.html )that makes people so docile and sheep-like...

- CyberWoLfman

[snowflake49]

hey cyberwolfman

are you the someone who wrote a letter to the sheeple

[rosnow]

value-pricing good, tracking bad

The basic idea behind road pricing is good - but this
implementation is very bad and even more troubling is that the
mostly civil engineers who are behind it don't see the
implications of the privacy concerns.

There is a much less intrusive way to create a pricing
mechanism. Use RFID and smart toll booths. If your RFID is
invalid, system takes a picture and you get a bill. This is the
same sort of thing users have for bridge tolls today. The ID does
have privacy implications too but at least you are not being
tracked all the time. And following a few rules you get a much
better system.

Only monitor on paid roads, as opposed to all the time.
Presumably paid roads could be limited to major roads and
highways.

Offer users a cash option that they can get at a gas station so
users can operate anonymously.

[gtrmurph]

Amazing ... and scary

I am amazed at any and all who think that it would be ok for the DMV of any state, or any federal agency to implement such a system as this. You will advocate a GPS system so a politically sponsored group of whatever can find your whereabouts and/or track your movements? This is the kind of spineless reaction to bully tactics that WILL result in allowing implanted chips in our decendants some day. I know, the first reaction of many of you is that I am over reacting. I wish I were. Every concession leads to another demand people. Look at your own children, or the children of your relatives. Examine history. Please, go back to school and take a history class. This is what humans do. You give an inch ... (follow the ball here, it's not rocket science) Your blindness and fear of conflict will destroy us. We must stand up and say NO! If I knew of anywhere on this planet where people had a brain and a spine, I would be so far away from this rediculous nightmare you call the United States .... I served time in the military for you .... I regret it now, you are not worth the pain and suffering I endured.

Let's forget all my patriotic reaction to the incredible dilution of our constitution for a minute. Let me address the bottom line for you bottom feeders ... Have any of you even considered the vast impact on our economy? Anybody out there work a toll booth? Find a new job loser. This is computer generated billing, humans need not apply.

Seriously, you mean to tell me that you are willing to let some government quack access information that informs them how far you have driven and pay a per milage fee for that? I have a four wheel drive toy that I take off road. Should I pay milage for driving over rocks? How about if I'm playing around on the trails that I've blazed on my own property? I guess that should be added to my "fee" as well. I pay taxes for the vehicle at time of purchase, when I buy fuel, and I pay a fee every time I register the vehicle. If I travel on a toll road, I pay a fee. I pay local, state, and federal taxes. Now some of you think I should pay more? Truly and without question, you are insane. I am terrified for your future, and mine.

[zimbar]

Stop tearing up our envrironment

You said that you drive your 4 wheeler on trails you cut on your own land, well you're WRECKING OUR environment!!!
Dismantle your 4 wheeler, recycle the parts, and let the trails revert back to the way nature intended!!!

DON'T WRECK OUR ENVIRONMENT!!!!

[snowflake49]

Its the wrold we live in.

what gets me is most of the U.S. citizens was born in The U.S. we have been here for years why do we now have to prove who we are,we did nothing wrong,we pay our bills we pay tax's we have Job's, we drive, there's nothing different except the vip's need to know where we are why because the U.S. is becoming flooded with non U.S. residents well that's the reason they give to the people, and that's not my fault. the boarder's could have been closed but for some reason there not. my question would be why,? the one thing I know is no matter what they do or what happens the God of Abrabaham Issac and Jacob is in control and I say this in the name of Jesus my Lord and saviour. AMEN

[CanFish]

Lets look at this scenario

You're a politician, an out-spoken-critic on current government policy, an ex-con just released from prison.

You're the spouse, or children of a prison inmate who's serving times in a state, or in a federal prison. You're a spouse of a parolee who just served years on a felony charge. Your vehicles has one of this tracking device which was secretly installed there by the police. The GPS let the local police department, the county sheriff and the state department tracks every locations you have been in to.

One summer. You decided a trip to LA from the San Francisco Bay area for a short visit. You brought along with you your 4 children. After you've done your shopping and sightseeing in Hollywood with your children, one of your son suggested a trip to the Dead Valley because he heard so much about the place. You and your children spent the night before in a local motel in LA so you would have a fresh start in the early morning sun.

One hour drove into the rural area of the desert. Your vehicle quitted running right in the middle of nowhere. The motor oil was drained by a suspious person in the parking lot at the motel you and your children spent the night.

You didn't plan on staying in this hot and dry desert for long so you didn't have much drinking water prepared for yourselfe and for your children's need.

At the end. You and your children might or might not got out of this mud and you all might died from this incident but that's not what I'm trying to point out here. What I'm trying to point out here is that you do not want your police department and or the DMV to keep track of your whereabout. Whether you are a government official, someone who've never committed a crime in his life. Or a criminal, family members of the 3 millions prisoners serving times in the collection systems. It'll never be your advantage if someone is monitoring every of your movements.

I don't believe the police in this case is at its concerns for your safety. This is all about "police control" "we're under the police state", and "jobs and paychecks" for the police and its affiliates.

The companies that does the satellite GPS services and the police affiliates makes billions out off our taxes dollars from the state and federal government. We need to let our lawmakers know that the GPS on our vehicles could only contribute to incidents such as I've described above in this article. It'll get more people under the harassment from the police and money goes to feed these police affiliates and their family for a better living. What do we the average citizens get? Our civil liberty is being violated on a daily basis.

Do something before it gets worse.

[crazyworld2005]

Whats next?...Goverment Video Camera in our house?

This is crazy, what is this Goverment coming to. They use all the terrorist excuses to monitor us now with the NSA and Patriot Act and now they want to know every move we make in our Vehicles. Ok, Cuba sounds better or even Iran. Will someone please make our Goverment the way it was before Bush. Time to Impeach The President. Where is Clinton?...Watch the bathroom you use, there may be a camera there recording your every bowel move.

[George Bush Jr..]

got somthin to say say it to my face

tHE governmant will never be the same after me,
like my daddy used to tell me who cares about iraq or even The US for that matter. I care about one thing and one thing only the armerican peoples.............................................................................................................MONEY.Ahhh it seems like yesterday me and bin laden were performing an abortion after a long day of gay bashing.

[snowflake49]

Hello where ever you are

no matter how bad things seem to be, its telling me we are in the end times and sooner or later Jesus will be coming back to set up his kingdom.we are to walk by faith not by sight.

[crazyworld2005]

Whats next?...Goverment Video Camera in our house?

This is crazy, what is this Goverment coming to. They use all the terrorist excuses to monitor us now with the NSA and Patriot Act and now they want to know every move we make in our Vehicles. Ok, Cuba sounds better or even Iran. Will someone please make our Goverment the way it was before Bush. Time to Impeach The President. Where is Clinton?...Watch the bathroom you use, there may be a camera there recording your every bowel move.

[zimbar]

Impeach the PRESIDENT

What are you, NUTS?!?!

The president took an OATH, to SUPPORT and DEFEND the United States from it's enemies and that's what he's doing, and you want him IMPEACHED for doing his job?!?

Thank GOD, Clinton isn't in power. If he was, we would would have turned tail and ran from the Terrorists!!

[crazyworld2005]

Your Toilet is next with a Goverment Camera

Imagine, you sit and wait. While the Goverment monitors what comes out , color and everything else.....yes that could be you. When you flush a alarm rings out, Two men from the NSA are there because the color was to brown. Yikes!

[George Bush jr.]

poop

We already monitior poop!

[m.meister]

You are nothing more than a revenue source

You are nothing more than a revenue source to a government
that is no longer for and/or of the people.

Not only does this VIOLATE PRIVACY, but it continues on to
insure that the middle class and poorest of this nation bear the
heaviest weight.

Sadly America is dying and it's doing so quickly thanks to our
politicians who believe the only use for the Constitution and Bill
of Rights is as toilet paper.

[zimbar]

Who cares???

You know, who cares about Privacy!!! I mean really! If you've got nothing to hide, and have done nothing wrong, why consurn yourself with the government listening in to your phone calls, or emails, or tracking your new car!
The GOVERNMENT does NOT care that you like to wear a feather-duster on top of your head when you kiss your wife (or girlfriend...or BOTH) goodnight! It's a little weird that you like to do that, but there's nothing wrong with it, so why worry that the government knows your doing it!
The ONLY people who are worried about the government "looking in" on them are Terrorists, and other Criminals. Your average law abiding citizen has nothing to worry about!
I'm more consurned about businesses having infomation on me... I mean, I had to give Cnet my first and last name....now why do they need that for me just to post a reply on this subject!?!?!

Patrick

[sillygramp]

Who cares??? I would hope you would

I can not believe your writing. Have you not experienced the systematic invasion of our freedoms over the years? And in recent years the challenges have been accelerating, especially in technology.
Look up near the traffic lights on every major intersection and note the video cameras.
This is like being a frog placed in cool water with a fire below.
However, this frog has felt the heat. I encourage you to look around and pay attention.
Bruce

[Argumenicus Rex]

Unless You Buy Bootleg Gas...

...the government zaps you for each mile you drive with the taxes you pay at the pump. And exactly how is the bureaucracy expansion required to monitor and regulate this new requirement supposed to save ANYONE money?
I would like to know how much money was contributed to the campaigns of the morons who approved the idea by the owners of the Silicon Valley companies that are gearing up for mass production of these manatory devices?
As with any technology, it can be easily defeated. There will soon be a market for boxes that: A). Block any signal leaving the device (wrap it in aluminum foil), and B). generate an RF signal that makes the GPS unit think that it is actually communicating with Big Brother and his pals down at Gestapo H.Q.
If you actually have a need to transmit your location - just pull the "Eye-Patch" off the GPS unit to resume transmissions as designed by our new Social Engineering Department of the Treasury.
I realize that this may seem to be an unrelated tangent, but this is just another reason why a Line-Item Veto for budgetary expenditures is needed on our tax returns - which gives us true taxation with representation. If we were able to decide not to fund idiotic proposals such as mandantory GPS tracking of everyone in the country, our taxes would go down, and without money to FORCE it down our throats, the proposal would quietly disappear.
With our current system of taxation and representation, politicians are free to promise to have our best interests in mind while campaigning, but are easily bribed into enacting fiscal nightmares - and what do they care? It isn't THIER money that they are spending - it's OUR money that is being wasted on crap like this on a daily basis, and there isn't a damn thing that the average US citizen can do about it without breaking the laws enacted by the same corrupt politicians.
I wonder how the participants in the Boston Tea Party would be treated in today's legal system?
Would they still be heroes?

[ahermansen]

Today they would be called Terrorists

And they would be thorown in gitmo. there goes freedom.

[AMG_Muscle]

The land of the free...

The land of the free,
America used to be a place to live, a place where you had freedom. Now everything you do is recorded. In new york and the tristate area there is a thing called EZ Pass it was created for easyer travling through a toll booth, yet thats not the truth. Anybody with a brain knos that big brother is monitering that. The government says we have freedom, freedom isent free. the government want to know where you are all the time. Now they have computer ships that go in yor arm that store every thing about you in it. The united states is becoming a place where you dont wana live. I'm a realist, lets all stop blaming the presidedt, but lets face the facts. The world is changing, we have arabs in the bushes waiting for the next 9-11. We have the A.C.L.U. making it imposible to have anything christin in our lives. Soon the baby jesus will be called "the holiday infant". This is insanity. Imagian getting a speeding ticket in the mail. Hey maybe its just me I'm a kid i'm 16. But lets face facts. There are camras every where. You cant get away with anything thies days. Soon you wont even be able to go anywhere with out a computer up ur ass. Maybe you guys dont know this but there already trying to moniter where you are Via cell phone. So they already have this in the works. The United Arab Emirates is starting to look better every day.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Another "kill the poors" initiative?

so... get the taxes down and pass down cost of travel to those travelling.
So, since a lot of public transportation is not good and poor end up living far away from work, their cost increases, while the rich live downtown (Chicago for ex) and don't even need a car.

Really good... lol

[aabcdefghij987654321]

Another "kill the poors" initiative?

so... get the taxes down and pass down cost of travel to those travelling.
So, since a lot of public transportation is not good and poor end up living far away from work, their cost increases, while the rich live downtown (Chicago for ex) and don't even need a car.

Really good... lol