Comments on: Police blotter: Judge orders Gmail disclosure

In case over missing assets, judge orders "all e-mails" from a Gmail account, including deleted ones, to be turned over.

[markdoiron]

This Is Why Thin Client Computing Will Fail

In another article the fact that broadband pipes are fast enough to support thin client computing is touted. And, okay, maybe we're going to get some bad guys off the streets and I'm all for that. But, at the end of the day, if I run a business I want to know that "DELETE" means exactly that--It's gone never to be seen again.

Not that I want to do anything illegal. But rather that I know that every bit of my business' precious data is protected from loss, and from the prying eyes of those whom I don't wish to see it. The same thing goes for my personal data.

mark d.

[samkass]

Keep Dreaming

Delete rarely means delete, even if it's on personal computers.
Except for court subpoenas, your "deleted" information is probably
a lot safer from future prying eyes on Googles backup system than
it is on your own hard disk without extraordinary measures.

[arluthier]

BACKUPS...

This goes to show that, even on a company network, that a tape backup needs to have a hard set retention schedule. When you delete an email it could still be on a tape backup of the server. This tape could be pulled out by a court.

If your industry says you have to keep records for two years... then on the 731st day... the tape should be professionally erased. With one of those industrial magnets used to erase tapes.

[OneWithTech]

How cna electronic documents like email...

....be covered under Client / Attorney confidentiality; when the
documents can essentially be altered with little effort?

~Justin
www.TechViewsToday.US

[samkass]

Accuracy vs. Privacy

The question of turning over client/attorney communication is not whether the documents can be altered, it's whether there was an expectation of privacy. However, the court seems to think that it excluded such communication anyway.

The thing that bothers me about this is not client/attorney communication, which can easily be excluded, but the fishing expedition that seems to be going on for further illegal activity. Without a very specific warrant that specifies exactly what information can be taken from the records and/or made public, it seems to be a case of the government just going through mass records looking for wrongdoing, which violates the fourth amendment.

[J.G.]

Would still be privileged

Doesn't matter. Almost anything a client tells a lawyer is covered,
including a confession. The exception usually cited is if the client
is about to commit a crime, particularly injury to another person.

[J.G.]

Reminds me of Jim West

Amother interesting computer forensics case involved the former
Neandertal Republican Mayor of Spokane. He was ousted in a recall
election after soliciting young males at Gay.com last year. The
local newspaper acquired transcripts of the conversations, which
sometimes involved virtual sex acts. Before it was over, newspaper
readers, the FBI, city government and the Washington Supreme
Court were privy to Jim West's amorous chats and emails.

[The user with no name]

Just another reason not to Gmail

US law provides LESS protection to this kind of personal information. In the future GMail will be forced to provide this info in everything from:

Divorce cases: See! (S)He was cheating and here's proof from their old deleted emails!

Terrorism: See! The accused did delete an anti-american email that originated/was sent to X country or person!

Personal Injury Cases: The defendant sent an email to his friend describing the accident and that description is different than the one in his testimony!

Criminal Suits: Ask some Chinese dissedent for a scenario!

Nope..... GMail can google this (making an obscene gesture)!

[JSmith314]

Frankly, anyone who uses email in this way is a fool...

Once you commit a document to electronic format and email it, you have forever lost control of it. I don't know what they could have been thinking. Even a few years back Oliver North got bitten by some emails that weren't deleted... they were on backup.

If I were in these guys shoes, I would have done the following:

1. Use a secure encryption program like PGP or GPG;

2. Change the keys frequently, say once a week.

3. Ensure that the public and private keys are stored on flash or other media where they can be destroyed and not recovered easily (if at all).

If these parties had done this, then Google could hand over their email, but it wouldn't matter, because no one could read it. Once the public/private key pairs are destroyed, no one can decrypt the stored email, even the sender or recipient. No authority can compel production of that which no longer exists.

[hadaso]

Obviously it asks only for a "Deleted Items Folder"!

Obviously the subpoena asks only for a "Deleted Items Folder", not for Google to go over all its replicated storage and look for traces of of deleted files that were not yet written over and happened to contain someone's email. In other words, it just explicitly says that one of the folders turned over should be the "Trash" folder".

[Jim Harmon]

Not so obviously

The atricle states:

Google's privacy policy says deleted e-mail messages "may remain in our offline backup systems" in perpetuity.

These offline backup systems would not be the "Deleted Items Folder." They would be any and all archives that have been made containing that Gmail account.

[Nowon]

How is this news?

From the Gmail Privacy Policy:
You may organize or delete your messages through your Gmail account or terminate your account through the Google Account section of Gmail settings. Such deletions or terminations will take immediate effect in your account view. Residual copies of deleted messages and accounts may take up to 60 days to be deleted from our active servers and may remain in our offline backup systems.

So basically all this means is that even if you delete an email it could exist in tape somewhere in a vault. This is not new. Every e-mail service provider does this exact same thing! Do you truly believe that when you delete mail from that Yahoo or Hotmail account they drag out the backup tapes to delete them there too? The truly sinister thing is this: why do you know that with Gmail there is a possibility that your email could still exist in a residual back up but not with any other email provider? Why is Google the only one telling people that this can happen? If this guy had a Yahoo account the exact same thing would happen. Yahoo would have to make the best effort to retrieve all the data that is requested from them and that would include information stored in backups.

[thurgoodj187]

This guys argument is bogus

If the feds had setup an old fashioned wire tap, and part of the phone conversations were between this guy any his laywer, the feds still have the right to listen. This in no way gives them the right to use any lawyer talk in court. Email is no different, except that the data was retained before requesting a warrant for the information.

Steve

[thurgoodj187]

This guys argument is bogus

If the feds had setup an old fashioned wire tap, and part of the phone conversations were between this guy any his laywer, the feds still have the right to listen. This in no way gives them the right to use any lawyer talk in court. Email is no different, except that the data was retained before requesting a warrant for the information.

Steve

[thurgoodj187]

sorry for that

some problem tells me that a page cannot be found an d then 3 messages on the board.

[thurgoodj187]

This guys argument is bogus

If the feds had setup an old fashioned wire tap, and part of the phone conversations were between this guy any his laywer, the feds still have the right to listen. This in no way gives them the right to use any lawyer talk in court. Email is no different, except that the data was retained before requesting a warrant for the information.

Steve

[8oooo]

So what was the result, in the end? How much "deleted" e-mail was recovered by Google? It would be interesting to know how far back they save it. Even though they cover their ***** by saying they may save it indefinitely, there's probably a more reasonable range, like 6 months or a year, although I'm sure it varies by account and a certain amount of luck.