Comments on: Blu-ray vs. HD DVD: I don't care who wins!

Outside of the protagonists and their immediate families, does anyone really give a darn who comes out on top? CNET News.com's Charles Cooper sure doesn't.

[jlsoaz]

How About Downloading?

If I download from Amazon.com unbox to a Tivo, or in the future download from netflix to an LG electronics device, then I will not be using a disk. I don't know what high-def format will be inherent to the download, but it seems to me a story here is also the transition to downloading, and away from disks, to some extent.

[sanenazok]

same old downloading

would not work for HD content. Even with very good compression an HD movie isn't going to be less than 9GB. Try downloading that over 1Mbs DSL (I have 300kbs - all that's available in my 'hood)! Even overnight download would not be done with more than a quarter of the movie. So to get downloading to work, you need magic compression or magic broadband infrastructure or really both.

[timothywmurray]

I do care -- and hope the war goes on

I can not imagine anything as foolish as wishing for an end to the format war before the competitors realize DRM is the real obstacle to adoption. Especially since Blu-Ray players do not all ways have internet connections and when the DRM scheme was modified all of the fox videos got fried.

I won't buy anything if it has DRM.

[megustansalchichas]

pointless, purely pointless

boy, it's like people here don't know how business works. look: they only need to make enough money to get a positive rate of return on their investments. there is absolutely no, and I mean NO interests in the halls of corporate manufacturers and studios about your loyalty. they know consumers don't think past 10 minutes into the future (figuratively speaking) and the only point is to try to get your money now now now. of course online distribution will be the norm in 5-10 years. but between now and then BR and HDDVD just need to make back their investment with a decent rate of return (and in consumer electronics that is in the single digits). the moment a winner is declared the chinese manufacturers are going to jump in and drive the prices to the ground.

[couchpotato99]

I care a lot who wins

When the big corporate studios decide FOR us what we will be watching in high definition discs, I have a BIG problem with that.

The CONSUMER should decide. Right now, we are fortunate to have 2 choices, HD-DVD and Blue Ray.

HD-DVD players are much cheaper for the consumer to buy, work better and are easier to upgrade by just hooking up to your computer. The lowest price machine is now listing for $199.

Blue Ray list price starts at $399, the picture ISN'T any better, and they are known to frequently freeze up. Just read the user reviews.

Furthermore, the data on the Blue Ray disc is much closer to the surface and needs a special top coating just to prevent scratches. That sounds like big problems down the road.

The only reason I see for the studios gravitating to Blue Ray is they think they can use more foolproof copy protection with that format.

But as we all know, sooner or later, someone is going to crack the code anyway!

Meanwhile, the consumer is being threatened with losing an excellent high def player that does its job at reasonable cost.

The score in this crazy game: Studios 1, Consumers 0.

[Dandy55]

Price for standalone HD DVD player

You can actually get HD DVD player for much less then $199: cheapest 3 generation HD DVD player is Toshiba A3 is $132 on Amazon but it supports only 1080i, cheapest 1080p HD DVD Toshiba A30 is $171.

Compare with Blu Ray players - Sony BDP-S300/SM is $347, Sony BDP-S300 is $390, cheapest I can find is Samsung BD-P1400 for $330. Basically, you have to pay twice as much as for HD DVD player.

[Thought1]

The Patents Matter

Sony has a terrible history of extorting patent royalties from the electronics industry to manufacture technology for which they claim to be the inventor. Just look at the MPEG licensing authority as an example. If you want the technology to be available at a reasonable price you should hope Sony does not prevail. Before Sony and Blu-Ray are crowned victors, they should be forced to disclose what it will cost to have other manufacturers make Blu-Ray players and associated software and applications for it.

[MyLord]

Will only care when recorders are available

nm

[TruSpeak]

My Sony Laptop had a Blue ray recorder since last year.

Start caring then because my $1,500 Sony laptop (model FZ180B) came with a Blue ray recorder.

[andyt13]

Agnostic buy disappointed in HD-DVD

I'm agnostic for the most part, although I really don't like Sony's consumer practices and was mildly routing for HD-DVD.

The HD-DVD camp shot themselves in the foot I think with very inadequite promotion and advertising while blue-ray was all over the place. I don't think your average consumer even knows HD-DVD exists or that is is different than regular DVD. When I look at electronic advertisements like Best Buy and such the HD-DVD name and logo is so non-descript sometimes I thought I was just looking at a regular high-end DVD player. And I can't recall seeing any HD-DVD promotion beyond those store advertisements.

[gkflyboy]

It did for Blu-ray...

And with the millions of BD drives out there including the PS3, BD's are selling - even if they are $30-$35 each...

[Zupek]

Another opinion worth reading

I've been following technology since before the time 3d accelerators where even heard of. I've followed the large picture of everything and I've seen things go great and I've seen things go horrible wrong.

While I support the right to speak your opinion, there are a lot of hidden things that go on behind enemy lines that I believe CONSUMERS need to be aware of.

First, for those people that don't know, HD-DVD requires no new manufacturing hardware. The media distributors can use the same technology as found in HD-DVD which means lower costs to the end consumer ( given that those duplicators have paid themselves off at least a hundred times by now ).

If you look @ the history of Sony, you'll see a couple things. 1 - Sony doesnt believe the consumer should have the right to BACKUP their own media. They think you are purchasing the right to view the film on that one disc and that is it. They have tried to prevent people from copying their IP's and they will always continue to do so ( look up sony DRM music cd issue for clarification ). 2 - Sony has spent more money on making sure Blu-Ray becomes a standard, then they have any single technology in the lifespan of Sony. They lost a billion or so ( which was A LOT back then ) to the VHS/Betamax war and they will do anything possible to make sure that never happens again. 3 - Sony is head of the Blu-Ray Forum ( but they dont own the Blu-Ray rights 100%, just a very invested interest in the matter, along with IBM and APPLE I believe ).

Here's a little background into how the forums actually work. Just like all the forums, forums consist of a couple headshots from each company and they all collaborate to determine what is best to help make the XYZ format "better" therefor making it a standard. NO big deal, however the costs go the forum and the profits from the production costs get split up from there.

The cost to create EACH DISC on HD-DVD is around $.13 (just like dvd, because it requires not technology). So if a 1000 copies of MOVIE XYZ get printed, the publisher pays $130.00 for all 1000 copies (.13per unit x 1000units). Since the technology has been around for so long, profits stay steady (still making money) and the consumers are more friendly to pick up on the technology (depending on mark up costs, which are higher for HD-DVD then they are blu-ray).

To master Blu-Ray discs, a new processing machine must be put into the factory (some factories have 2 or 3 depending on the location of the factoy). each one of the blu-ray replicators/duplicators costs (last i read) $3billion (thats 3,000,000,000 ) to $5billion dollars to get installed, get up and running, etc. First off, no company is going to front that money in hopes that blu-ray will just win (well Sony would because they understand if they will they control the price of HD movies and can nickle and dime, or in this case dime and quarter) to make up for each one of these manufacturing machines to be placed (there are more then 9 world wide, so 9replications x $3 billion = $27,000,000,000).

On top of that cost issue, each blu-ray disc costs the studios $3.00 ( yes 3 dollars ) per disc to make. so now if company XYZ wants to have a 1000 copies move MOVIE XYZ, it'll cost em $3,000 instead of $130 for the competing formats. SO why would companies change? SImple, if blu-ray becomes the standard, people will be forced to get blu-ray and the blu-ray forum can promise a higher profit w/ less copies sold. ON paper (just like the cell processor) Blu-Ray looks great to the studios.

Okay so now we have how it was made, great :sarcasm:. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD use the some Microsoft HD-Video codec on consumer level. they both use the exact same quality and the only real difference is there is more data left over on the end of a blu-ray disc and technically (again on paper) the blu-ray lens has a higher throughput, not that the type HD/DVD lens throughput is close to maxing out.

OKay so lets say that Blu-Ray does become the standard and HD-DVD does drop off the planet. We now give control of our HD consumer media to the hands of a company that doesnt believe consumers should ever have the right to back up their data. We also have a company that is more invested in it and needs to make up their losses so they can start to get into the profits category and reap the benefits until the sky turns red.

The problem with all of those costs that I listed above is simple, CONSUMERS, LIKE YOU, have to pay for it. IF you want an example, Resident Evil Apoc, on Blu-Ray (which is blu-ray only because its owned by Sony picture studios, just like James Bond, Die Hard, and other high profile movies for male audience ) costs $45.00. Yes you read that correctly. The new REsident Evil costs $45.00 dollars for the end consumer to purchase @ best buy. The markup is very low because they have to pay all thost promises to the companies that decided to make blu-ray a standard (apple, disney, ibm, wb, etc etc etc ).

So, it gets down the question of "Should you care about what becomes a standard". Very much so because this US government has gotten to the point where big business is more important then its citizens. Since we are on the brink of a recession, (where the middle class and lower class people suffer), your choice in HD does make a difference because you could be part of putting those people out of work and their families on the streets.

Also to all the Downloaders saying that online will win. Only 50% of the United States is online, so you would be taking out 1.5 billion people by going online only. Plus you forget, this is America. People like to show off their possessions, including their HD/DVD collection.

For me, I ONLY purchase movies and cd's because I like having it all organized and not dealing with another windows failure/hard drive restore...

Thanks for reading my book, hopefully you think twice and in case you didnt know. PLASTIC, is made of oil and it NEVER biodegrades. EVER. not in 1 millions years and not in 1 billion years. Plastic will still be here, so think twice before taking cheap over better.

[dmm]

Check your math or your facts

You said: Only 50% of the United States is online, so you would be taking out 1.5 billion people by going online only.

Reply: I thought US population was 300 million, not 3 billion. 150 million is 0.15 billion, not 1.5 billion. Also, out of that 50% that is offline, many are technology foot-draggers with no desire to buy high def (or wide-screen or digital TVs, for that matter).

I do agree with you about Sony's attitude toward backup rights. I think they could make SERIOUS points with the public by promising to replace any damaged disk at cost (so you don't pay twice for the same IP). While they are at it, they could offer discounts to people who buy old IP on new media if they turn in substantially the same IP on old media. (Example: turn in a Sony movie on DVD, and get a discount on that same movie on Blueray.)

[samkass]

Your arguments are all FUD

Who cares about the manufacturing hardware. This is not something consumers need to be aware of, especially since Blu-Ray discs actually appear to be a little cheaper AND higher quality than HD DVD.

1. Who cares about Sony's opinion about backups. What DRM gets put on the disc is determined by the discs studio.

2. Toshiba bribed a studio over a hundred million to switch to their camp. Sony's just competing on the quality of their product. Who, then, is more desperate?

3. Sony isn't even the largest patent holder in the Blu-Ray standard. They just have the most players on the market (Sony sells more Blu-Ray players per quarter than all the HD DVD players ever made).

4. Both formats support MPEG2, MP4/AAC, and VC-1. The latter two are pretty comparable in quality, but the authoring tools for HD DVD try to lock you into the Microsoft-dominated VC-1 format, while the authoring tools for Blu-Ray favor the open MP4/AAC format.

However, protocols are just half the story in terms of quality. Blu-Ray supports significantly higher bandwidth off the disc. That, combined with much greater capacity, means that Blu-Ray movies can be compressed much less resulting in dramatically higher quality.

5. Price: go ahead, check Amazon, I'll wait... every single disc that's sold in both formats are exactly the same price! Consumers shouldn't care about manufacturing costs. Blu-Ray costs will go down as volume picks up.

"Plastic will still be here, so think twice before taking cheap over better." That's a great argument in favor of Blu-Ray, as well.

[shadow83002]

$45 for RE?

I don't know where you get your information from, but I just checked Best Buy's Website, and RE Apocolypse on Blu-Ray only costs $24.99, while the NEW version of RE, i.e. Resident Evil EXTINCTION only costs $29.99. Do some research before you post, your whole comment has lost all credibility.

[guerojose]

You don't care? Sure you do...

You don't care who wins? Yet you care enough to write the 43,237th opinion piece without offering anything new, useful, or even humorous. This seems to be quite the pastime these days among the opinion/blog set, apparently because they want to seem current and relevant.

You remember Betamax vs. VHS? Really? How about S-VHS, flying erase heads, S-Video connections? To hear the constant whining from the HD-DVD crowd about a "finished spec", you'd think that no technology in history has been improved after day one. Technology changes people, and it does so (at least in part) because consumers want it to. Why this should cause such angst among so many is puzzling. And yes, despite your snarky little remarks, plenty of us do care, and want the besat audio/video we can get. If no one cared, the market wouldn't exist and this "issue" wouldn't exist.

Sure, it would've been preferable to avoid a format war that results in some people getting the shaft, but that's capitalism: caveat emptor. The market has spoken, and the better technology won, regardless of the endless ridiculous arguments that are STILL being put forward about manufacturing equipment, media cost, or how Sony kills baby seals. HD-DVD was the inferior technology, and we should all rejoice in not being saddled with it from here on out.

I agree on one point - let's move on already (you listening, Toshiba & Microsoft?)

[Zupek]

you going to give me my 200 bucks back?

Didnt think so. tell ya what, why dont we all just buy chevy. All the
cars are the same right? they all get from point a to point be.
better yet, we will get rid of EVERY CAR MANUFACTURE BUT chevy
because on paper, it might look pretty.

[shadow83002]

Some more false information.

You said there were, what, 9 blu-ray duplicators in the WORLD, and that they cost 3 BILLION dollars EACH!? dude, here's a blu-ray duplicator you can buy that costs about 15k and burns 15 disks at a time. Sure, 15k is a lot, but this is a consumer product. I'm sure the industrial machines don't cost more than a couple-hundred thousand max.

Research b4 u spit a bunch of BS!

http://www.runtechmedia.com/product.asp?sku=SharkBlu2xPscHddto15&a=10

[Zupek]

this is a consumer/low end product

we are talking about machines that pump out hundreds of
thousands of titles/disc A DAY for all over the world, not just
america. in fact I dont even think america has a manufacturing site
to produce blu-ray.

I don't just randomly make this stuff up.

[kenzrw]

Can Blu-Ray play regular DVDs?

I've read that HD-DVD was made to be able to play old regular DVDs if need be. If I get a Blu-Ray player, am I guaranteed to be able to play my hundreds of DVD's I've accumulated over the years? I sure don't want to re-buy all my old titles in Blu-Ray.

[camp88]

Yes they can.

Caveat emptor, of course, but I bought a BR player in November
2006 that plays dvds just fine.

[samkass]

YES!

There's no player out there of any format that can't play the plain old DVD.

[Kreloure]

Yep!

Yep! Blu-Ray players also play normal Dvds, and they upgrade them too, to near-High Def quality. While it's not like buying a Blu-Ray disc, it makes such a difference and it's SO worth it!
My beef with re-buying discs--with either HD DVD or Blu-Ray format-- is you are unable to play them on anything else-not your computer, other DVD player, or portable DVD player. Nontheless, I would highly recommend a Blu-Ray player because of the high quality you get with either normal DVDs or Blu-Ray discs themselves (which are utterly stunning to look at on a 1080i screen!!!!)

[sabbaticalguy]

Does it really matter?

The whole format war is likely to be a moot point within 5 years. With the increase in music and video download technology, who is going to care? It seems a lot more likely that media is going to reside on home storage libraries (Terabyte drives), and be accessed by network connected home devices. (either at home or on the go) The ipod or a solid state flash drive would work just fine. (assuming they will be available at appropriate size) Why would I want to carry around a disk of any format?

[Kainchild]

Cant hold that many movies on an ipod

If unlimited memory were possible on an ipod then i'd agree but the need for disks will always exist as long there is limited space on a portable media player.

Blu-rays carry more space and allow for better resolution and more extras. That's why blu-rays look better then HD DVD and probably why they were favored by the Warner Brothers and Disney studios.

[Zupek]

what about no pc.

then what are people supposed to do, ask a friend to burn it? no
thanks.

[alenas]

HD-DVD will win

I think it will not be about which format is better. Betamax was better, but it lost. Why it lost? tapes and devices were cheaper on the other side. Same with current situation. Many people can afford $129 HD-DVD players, but they would think before shelling $300.
Studios will go to the format where there is more hardware and if toshiba can sell more hardware - studios might have to think again :)
PS2 managed to popularize DVD's just because it was the cheapest DVD player. But PS3 is not the cheapest HD player, so it is not the same game...
I firmly believe that Blu-Ray is still in big trouble...

[kingofgrills]

Seriously. HD-DVD needs to die a quick death for the benefit of HD discs

I hate to burst your bubble, but Blu-ray discs outsold HD-DVDs 6 to 1 in the latest report published earlier today. The only two major studios still supporting HD-DVD are Paramount and Universal. Even if people jump on $120 HD-DVD players, what's the point if there's nothing to watch on them?

I hate to sound harsh, but this format battle needs to end quickly. There are consumers who are confused about the differences between formats, or afraid to select the wrong format all together. The justification to upgrade is especially difficult given that DVDs can be easily upscaled to 1080p by most modern players. People will consider that good enough, but the reality is it's no where near as good visually or sonically as Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

People most often think of the VHS vs Beta war from the early 80's, but I think this has more in common with the Super Audio CD vs DVD-Audio fight for the heir to CD sales. Those two formats offered noticeable improvement over conventional CDs, yet both failed to catch on as mainstream commercial formats. SACDs are more widely available, but mostly for classical, jazz, and limited classic rock reissues.

The Blu-ray HD-DVD format war needs to end ASAP, otherwise both formats will fail, and we'll be stuck with DVDs for years to come. Given that Blu-ray is the clear choice of movie studios, and included in each of the 2.4 million PS3s sold in the US so far, HD-DVD should just step out of the picture.

I'm sorry, but there's no way HD-DVD can succeed as a format. Now, studios and retailers want it to die, and that shouldn't be stopped.

[rslc]

I want HD-DVD to win too

Its better designed, simpler and cheaper.
Good for consumers in the long run.

I hope Blu-ray end up like SACD. Niche collectors market and dying.

PC Data-Backup Market goes for cost.
HD-DVD is better.

[whizkid454]

Success lies with CONTENT....

Let's see, 5 out of the 7 major studios support BluRay. Only 2, yes 2, support HD DVD. Now why would you buy something that will have no future use?

[fgsdfgdsfgdsfg]

junk

the el-cheapo HD-DVD players are junk.
look at the specs.
no 1080p output, only 1080i
no HD-DTS, no THX select 2, no Dolby HD.

they cut out all the features that made a HD-DVD a HD-DVD so they can sell the players on the cheap.

the toshiba A3 is a worthless peice of trash.

blu-ray players does no such thing. you get a quality player for the money, and thats why you have to pay the bucks.

if you want to make the compairison fair, you have to look at the toshiba A35 player. that retails for 425.00 to get all the features a standard blu ray player offers.

so if anything, the price difference is in blu ray's favor when you educate your self and make an informed decision.

[samkass]

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

The site http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/ has a great summary of the battle, and makes it pretty clear that Blu-Ray has essentially already won-- it has the most popular, cheaper, and more numerous titles.

[Zupek]

that everyone already bought on DVD.

i still have VHS movies i refuse to buy on TV, just for the simple
fact that I bought it once. I would rather convert them to DVD,
which I can do without rewarding bad consumer tactics to any
company.

hey, if you want corporate america to tell you what to buy, good for
you, but the rest of us enjoy freedom and actually understand it.

[Kainchild]

Blu-Ray holds more then HD DVD

I dont get it. Why do the movie studios keep supporting a format that holds less space? Plus alot of people own playstation 3 now especially with the price drop.

[Zupek]

and alot more people own 360 and wii, but those dont have hidef

thats exactly the problem. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS SPACE. 1720p
is due out next year and GUESS WHAT, IT WONT FIT ON A BLU-RAY
or HD-DVD...

[videography]

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD win

As of this moment Blu-Ray has the lion's share of US studio production, so it may be first to mass market fancy studio productions in pretty boxes.

Meanwhile the crafty folks at HD-DVD have already imbedded a streamline HD-DVD burner in many laptops. They will inherit with this move early entrants into the HD User Generated spectrum. For a while at least that will assure their future as a production tool.

Bob Kiger
Videography Lab
http://videographyblog.com

[Anysia]

For me it comes down to Fair Use rights

HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people who throw your fair-use rights out of the window. As for Warner Bros going blu-ray, guess it means I got all of Bab5 TV series at the right time (pre-blu ray)

[tinyang]

DRM Sucks!

I'm a huge fair use rights advocate, and Blu-ray has it (DRM), HD-DVD does not (not comparatively speaking anyway). We should support the technology that benefits they paying consumer the most which is HD-DVD!

--
tinyang

"Fair use is not merely a nice concept--it is a federal law based on free speech rights under the First Amendment and is a cornerstone of the creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer rights in the digital age are not frivolous."
- Maura Corbett

[Groucho6]

Still waiting

Not only should it be over, it never should have started. By now
these knuckleheads should be able to agree on a standard BEFORE
they start manufacturing. Anyway, like the writer, I have been
burned before by technology that didn't last, so I haven't bought a
new video disc player yet. Since it now appears Blu-ray is winning
the battle, I'll wait until Toshiba and Microsoft cave before doing
so.

[kenzrw]

Microsoft caving in?

That might take some doing.

[as901]

Blue Ray offers more.

When you consider that BLU-RAY offers much more space on a disk, it makes sense to go blue. I realize that it is taking time for BLU-RAY to lower the price, and for that reason alone, I am happy to see HD-DVD hang on a bit longer. Let us be honest. In the end, BLU-RAY is the better format. Any movie company that supports HD-DVD does so because HD-DVD makers are giving incentives to do so and common sense! See Below. Let us hope HD-DVD hangs on a bit longer. After Sony lowers their prices to a more reasonable market level, then I am OK with all the movie companies going Blue. Think of this. The movie companies want HD-DVD to hang in there. If we buy HD-DVD movies, and BLU-RAY becomes the standard, they get to sell us the same movie again! It is a win for the studios for the battle to go on.

[comestim]

Get the Facts

Actually HD's new layer supports hold more than Blu-Ray.

[samkass]

Not just capacity-- throughput

Not only do Blu-Ray discs hold more, but they can deliver the data faster to the players. That means that compression can be turned down, and action scenes and scenes with subtle gradients will be MUCH sharper on Blu-Ray than HD DVD.

The smaller capacity of your typical HD DVD combined with its slow transfer rate means plenty of macroblocking. HD DVD, in their attempt to be cheaper through incremental change, hasn't produced much better than DVD. Blu-Ray attempts to be cheaper through volume while still moving forward, and that plan seems to be working much better...