Comments on: Can cryptography prevent printer-ink piracy?

A San Francisco company is developing chips that use encryption to control which ink cartridges and printers work together.

[chash360]

How 2-Faced

Many Ink-jet mfg's have been litigated against for the very same concept, trying to prevent the use of destructive 3rd party inks. Now there is a company purporting to sell this ability? Don't expect any takers anytime soon. I believe the courts have already supported the end users right to choose, however ill-advised that is. But fair warning, 3rd party Ink sellers typically are not industrial chemists, they sell the cheapest inks (that often destroy printers with continued used), for the greatest profit. They care nothing about the end user, and have no comittment to them. Inks are patented, so this really isn't Ink Priracy anyway, its more like the generic overseas drugs that could kill you, because they used cheap diethylene glycol (antifreeze) instead of pharmecutical grade poly-ethylene-glycol. Stick with a reputable manufacturer and the inks designed to work with the system, and you will be at peace with your printer, and know you have the mfg on your side there to help should your printer have an issue. Or you can dump uncontrolled colored solvents and acids in your printer, and wallow in self pity why it no longer works. Don't even get me started on the enviromental issues with 3rd party inks, at least the big OEM's have proper recycling and disposal services, your local refill shop probably dumps their waste down the sink! With ink-jet cost per page (with OEM inks) rivaling that of copier pages of a few years ago, I can not think of any reason to think the OEM Ink is too expensive.

[unknown unknown]

The only pirates are the printer manufacturers.

They write software that intentionally reports cartridges empty when in fact they have several more pages of ink left in them. They use patent and the DMCA to restrict competition and drive prices through the roof for just a few milli-liters of ink.
The only pirates are the profiteers running the companies that make the printers

[Santa Clauz]

This is an infomercial. c|net should label it as "advertisement"!

Somebody might mistake the this infomercial for real article. c|net really writes what they are paid for. "Ink Pirates"... jeez.

[jack1260]

Printer Ink problems

The community printer will ultimately be the answer to all of this nonsense. Why they spend so much money on other things is beyond me. I can go to the Library of any city government, university or college and get it by the page on the few occasions that I don't just email the data or save it into a files on my jump drive. It usually ends up as trouble when these kinds of business ventures start running out of money, the handwriting on the wall, and all that sort of thing...

[oldmanangry]

Bad reporting...

This is truly a case of really poor reporting. Although it makes a short mention of legit refilling, the real target of "smart" carts has ALWAYS been the legit refil/remanufacturing market. The reporter should have spoken to a remanufacturing vendor for its view on adding crypto to carts. Bah. A first year reporting student would not have missed this angle of the story which is pretty much a BJ for the crypto vendor.

[mattumanu]

don't drive angry oldmanangry...

Actually, I agree with you, I just wanted you to look at the fact that I do ;)

[Dalkorian]

I get it!

Printer ink piracy ... why didn't the rest of you see this article for
what it really is?

It's an April Fools joke, pulled about 3 months late. You didn't
actually think you can "pirate" printer ink, did you?

(If you do believe this junk, please do us the favor of mentioning
which printer company you work for. The rest of the real world
would rather pay a little more for a decent printer and a lot less
for the ink to make it run - this is a business model that smacks
of accountants on crack.)

[chash360]

Upside and Downside

People who choose to use 3rd party inks are free to do so and it will continue that way, its not like they will embed micro chemical labs to test the ink formulae and reject non-conformers.

This is a total AD-Article on a touchy subject with lots of people, thats what CNET wanted, to stir it up a bit with bogus headlines.

People who buy the cheap ink also buy the cheap low end printer, that costs less than the replacements too. Thats why they make them, if every consumer were smart enough to get the most cost effective printer for their work, I can garentee its not that cheap disposable printer. People who buy the cheap inks and cheap printers, also bought yugo's, beer-beer, and various other bottom of the line stuff thinking they were saving money, only looking at the initial price tag. Do your home work, do the math, printed pages cost less than 5 cents no matter whose Brand name printer AND Branded Inks you use.

3rd party Ink sellers are no threat to the big OEM's, because they can never match performance, and lets face it, they are only in the business to make money, and as soon as the money dries up they will be gone. The big OEM's are at least in the business to make a quality product for the customer's money. Your local Ink refiller will be gone just before the EPA finds ground water has been contaminated by in proper waste handling. (Dumping ink down the sink)

In the beginning you get what you pay for
In the end you pay more for trying to cut corners

[C. Alexander Brown]

Thank God They're Stupid

The printer makers with their greed have created an opportunity for exterprising companies to enter the market with good printers that do not rip off customers with exorbitant prices for printing media. Patents for most of the fundamental printer technologies have expired. On my next trip to China I will be discussing this matter with executives of three or four manufacturing companies.

[chash360]

How nice of you, to not be greedy

How nice of you to take your business to China for the cheap labor, cheap inks, and cheap manufacturing. So you can put more money in your pockets, at the expense of your fellow hard working americans. So glad you are not so greeedy.


Some Ink-Jet and Piezo Patents are expiring, but the Ink Formulae patents have not. When the 'Stupid' people get educated on what things really cost, how much R&D and Chemistry it takes to make these technologies work, perhaps they might thank those who did the real work...

[alizardx]

deliver on those printers and we'll thank the people who make 'em

I bought the Canon PIXMA IP3000 2 years ago for $85 with a $20 Canon rebate afterwards. Because it's got easy to refill cartridges and prints CD, the few left in the original box are sold at premium prices. To replace my IP3000 would cost me $300. Given the hassles with finding a modern printer with chipped cartridges, I'd have bought 2 at the time of original purchase if I'd known.

Other Canons from that model year... IP4000/5000/6000 also sell at really high premiums.

There IS a premium market for printers that have easy to refill cartridges or will handle straight bulk ink.

I know where to get cheap printers. I want a printer that's CHEAP TO OPERATE.

Whoever builds one with low TCO will have the world beating a path to his door, cash in hand.

[Heebee Jeebies]

Only in a world...

Where corporate greed runs so high would a consuming choosing to use a third party ink in their printer be considered piracy. Well, any company that implements this type of bull will never see another cent of my money. Piracy my hind end, since once is a monopoly the answer to piracy. Since when it price raping customers the answer to anything.

Robert

[questonline]

Apoor business model getting worse.

My first inkjet printer cost $750 in the mid 1990's. My first
Epson Photo printer cost $899 but was a wide format model.
After that the prices of printers plumeted. The printer
manufacturers realized they needed to sell the printer at a loss
or at cost to get us to buy them. What they should do, however
is sell multi packs of ink for high volume users at steep
discounts. They will still make a ton of $$$ and the high volume
user is not being punished by subsidizing the home or light
user.

My first photo printer has been sing generic ink sucessfully for
the past 5 or 6 years by the way. Perhaps with a few extra head
clogs.

[gdusseau]

Finally, someone gets it!

I applaud, you, sir. You understand the business model that has repsonded to consumer's choices. It is not greed; it is not Communism! People pay $40 for a cartridge because they choose to.

[fgfgVCV]

Go for Zink instead

99% of my printing needs would be satisfied with a light chemical change in paper due thru a pass thru the printer.

www.zink.com is pushing for the camera market but the technology is perfectly suited for black and white standard paper if they had a mind to do it. Would wipe out this ink nonsense

[news4la]

The minute they say I can't....

I send it back to the store. If you want me to buy your product Mr. Manufacturer. Treat me as a good customer not a criminal. I might buy fom someone else. There goes your market share! Think about it.

[Pikachu62]

Price Per Gallon Exceeds Gas

Correct me if I am wrong.
21ml of HP ink cartidge 96 costs $55
There are about 3784ml in a gallon.
So black ink for an HP printer costs $9900 per gallon.

The color ink, 14ml Cartridge 97 costs $35.(three colors)
This works out to about $9450 per gallon.

And someone wants to add restrictions?
Any consumer advocates see any rhyme or reason here?

[chash360]

Thats not all Ink!

An HP 96 Cartridge also has an integrated print head. This is a piece of silicon that goes through the same kind of fab processes as your Computer's CPU, of which you will pay 100's for. Many of the older integrated cartridges actually did use gold plates on the printheads, yes real gold. Should you expect Ink to cost less than Gas? All petroleum products are derived from crude oil which is pumped out of the ground in vast quantities, then put through a relatively simple refining process. Inks are made from a variety of chemicals, dyes and pigments that involve a lot more work than making gasoline, and cost a lot more money. Sorry but the cheap ink in your ballpoint pen will not work an inkjet printer.

[gdusseau]

Consumer-driven, free-market economy is the problem...

The three examples of piracy provided are not piracy.

Free-market is exploiting a bad situation.

Any printer manufacturer who buys into cryptography will die an ugly, albeit swift death...the consumer simply will not stand for $30-to-$40 cartridges.

That being said, the ink-jet industry probably will not survive if manufacturers will not be able to get $40 for a cartridge.

Then, what will happen, smaller, low-margin ink-jet mfgs will disappear from the market, ultimately leaving the biggies (hp?; lexmark?) to fight for the scraps. They will become profitable through attrition, as I believe that the ink-jet market is viable due to inexpensive and convenient photo prints.

Anyone see a pattern in the above?

The free market will prevail, and it will rule!

The federal reserve bank be damed!

[chash360]

Yes they will

They will because thats what it costs to make a quality product. None- I repeat None of these 3rd party manufacturers can actually produce the quality printheads AND Ink for these generic prices your expecting, and they never will.

Its really pathetic, here is an example: Person A buys a Pinto for $5000 brand new, Person B buys a Cadillac for $50,000 new. Person A is telling Person B that Cadillac is ripping him off, claiming the Cadillac only costs $5000.

Yes as generic 3rd party products improve, the big OEM's may have to adjust their margins. If it gets too bad, you will see an end to the printers sold at a loss, because they will not be able to count on premium OEM inks sale to recover the cost. But you will never see premium Inks sold for a loss, which is what they would be if they were at the generic prices. Good Ink costs money, end of story.

I agree the article really has little to do with piracy, its an AD-Article.

[gdusseau]

You have missed most of the situation...

Sir,
It seems so easy to command that the ink-jet manufacturers drop their retail prices. The problem is that, since they sell their printers at a loss, if they can not sell cartridges at the current rate, they will go out of business.

[tetsuyo]

ink cost per gallon

The issue is the cost of ink per gallon. We need to focus on that since anyone can understand what it means to buy a gallon of something. So you mean to tell me that printer ink is worth about 9000 a gallon! I don't care what special formula that you use if you are going to charge $9000 a gallon for it then you are going to make a ton of money. For that type of money you better create up some inkologist experts and put the messy stuff in some pretty packaging just to make it seem like the customer is paying for some heavy duty stuff. We don't want the customer to feel ripped off.

How much can it really cost to make a gallon of ink? I have been using cheap ink in my Epson printers for a while with no problems. In fact, when I used the official Epson ink my printer clogged up after I did not use it for a while. I called Epson and they sent me a brand new printer, and an upgrade from the model that I had also! i was surprised that they would do that but I guess they were getting a lot of complaints about ink clogging and had to cover their *****. I still did not go back to using the official Epson ink and have been happy with my printouts and don't expect to have anymore clogging problems. My print quality has more to do with the paper that I am using than the ink. I just buy the nearest to cheapest ink that I can find on ebay.

So don't let them fool you with the official ink scam. They will give you all types of free, expensive looking printers to cover their ***** so you wont start to question that loan you just took out to buy their ink. As long as they can sell the ink for $9000 a gallon they will be happy. Once you figure the scam out they try to turn you into a pirate.

[cfmcguire]

Legal Precedents

If memory serves, which is less likely every day, a certain German auto manufacturer tried to require customers to only use "their" oil filters and other consumables. I believe that the United States Supreme Court ruled that if that was going to be the case, then the company had to provide them at no charge to the consumer. I would wager that this decision would weigh heavily in any litigation on this matter.

[fred dunn]

Before we judge this company and intents...

Let's look at what they are trying to achieve.
By definition "Anti-Piracy" would just mean the sellers of cartridges are representing themselves to be the printer company in question.
So in a scenario such as this I find no harm in adding a crypto chip with one very big exception:
If the chip also keeps tabs on the level of the cartridge and prevents it from being rebuilt and/or reused then this becomes monopolistic and is ripe for the courts to take down the companies.
But for the companies that are constructing molds and building proprietary cartridges from the ground up I have a problem with that and side with the printer companies.
Before you rake me over the coals understand that the reasons I have are just two:

1. These printer companies base thier business model on the fact that you are going to need supplies and therefore sell the hardware at a loss. Sound familiar? How about your Cell phone, your Home alarm company, etc. Do I like it, no but I don't have to buy it either. No one is forcing you to buy an inkjet or a low capacity laserjet. I own one inkjet fax and I only use it to send. I also own an HP 4+ laserjet that gives me thousands of pages per cartridge.
For color prints I use photo printing services because they are cheaper per print than any other technology and my ink or toner doesn't go bad me if I don't use it a lot.

2. I only like purchasing high quality supplies for my printer and if I go to the store and purchase a cartridge for $100 I want to know that it is HP's (I only use HP's) or whatever it is branded and not some cheap "knock-off" that is going to screw up my printer.

But the second they start using this technology to prevent refillers and rebuilders (which I don't use but want the option) then they have crossed the line.

By the way the cost of HP's inkjet inks (ounce per ounce) far exceeds that of gold, no kidding.

[heinriph]

Indeed

Well spoken.

If they want to block counterfeits, they have my support. If they are trying to block third-party ink from being used in their printers, they deserve litigation.

My slight disagreement is with the upside-down business model - "I don't have to buy it" usually isn't a solution, unless you're willing to give up on having a cell phone or an inkjet printer. With the entire industries, and not just individual manufacturers using that business model, you can't take your business elsewhere.

The cell phone rate plans, and inkjet cartridge costs all include cost recovery for subsidizing equipment. I don't run out and get a new (subsidized) cell phone every year or two, but I'm still paying for those assumed subsidies in every month's bill.

[RacerX7]

Well said!

Kudos.

[chash360]

Very well said, but...

I don't like the upside down model either, but once it starts in any industry, it spreads to all OEM's because they have to compete. Printers did not get sold for a loss, or considered disposable until a few years ago, when several minor OEM's started making cheap printers, and began capturing market share with their low sticker prices. Now they all do it. Fear not though, the major OEM's that actually care about the business, and not just the money still make quality printers, just not at disposable prices. Look carefully and you will find the quality systems that are not sold for a loss, have cheaper Ink supply costs (more bang for the buck) from certain OEM's.

I highly doubt you have the actual numbers of the Ink Costs even in the right ballpark. Their is also the integrated printhead which actually does contain gold and sometimes rarer materials. A chip that goes though a fab process just like your computer's CPU (that you pay 100's for). Special Plastic molding, (not just any plastic can stand up to certain ink formulations without altering the ink).

You won't see this technology implemented by the big OEM's, (I believe because of the litigation issues) otherwise they would have already done it themselves, they don't need some third party chip, they already have the capabilty, and have chosen not to do it.

Do not forget this was an AD-Article for this companies chip, not some major OEM's adoption of it.

[markdoiron]

Who's Definition?

"By definition "Anti-Piracy" would just mean the sellers of cartridges are representing themselves to be the printer company in question."

No it's not. That's called counterfeiting. And it's illegal. The printer companies can take the counterfeiters to court and win. It's an easy trail for them to follow.

But, by couching this anti-competitive proposal in the terms of "piracy", and by cNet lending credence to it by publishing it in these very same terms, they divert attention from the real issue: Stop the legal selling of third party printer supplies.

--mark d.

[fred dunn]

I agree with your points, but...

I have yet to find an inkjet technology even in the large format and business models that is inexpensive to own.
Inkjet technology has you one way or another in that if you print a lot then you are going to be paying a lot for ink, an on the other hand if you don't use it a lot then the nozzles get clogged-up and/or your ink goes bad. I will not own an inkjet technology printer for this reason.

On the laser side of the spectrum you are absolutely correct, if you buy an inexpensive printer then your cartridges are going to be small and good for a small amount of prints. On the other hand if you buy a workgroup type laser then your cost per page goes down significantly since the cartridge for the smaller printer cost as much or more than the cartridge for the larger printer.
Like you said you can either pay for it up front or you can pay for it on the back side. For that very reason I always recommend (even for home users) at least a workgroup sized laser printer.
I never recommend inkjet printers unless it is inkjet commercial plotters.

[frantaylor]

pirates?

So everything that's not OEM is pirate? WOW!

Do we detect a bit of an editorial slant here?

[mssoot]

Been basing my purchases of printers on ink

We for years for many printers have been basing the purchase of printer brands on the availability of reasonable ink cartridges prices. The cost of the printer in nothing based on OEM cartridge costs.
I'd pay 3 - 4 time more if I knew the ink was cheap.
( like under 2 dollars for each cartridge )
are they as good as OEM - no but they do function good enough and even if they kill the printers in a few years who cares?
If the printer manufacturers stop over charging for ink, people would pay more for a printer that had 2.00 ink cartridges because we all know over time thats where the real cost is going to be!