Comments on: Rocky road for car 'black boxes'

Rising use of data devices in autos pits safety against privacy concerns.
Photos: Watched at the wheel

[m.meister]

Throwing out your rights by the bucket

There is no legitimate reason to store more than 1-2 minutes
worth of driving data in the black box. Anything else is designed
to invade your privacy.

Arguments of "You won't object if you have nothing to hide"
smacks in the fact of innocent until PROVEN guilty. Oh, and you
are required, by law, to provide that proof -- and pay for it.

[Christopher Hall]

What's the big deal?

Can someone explain to me why everyone is so crazy about privacy rights? I don't get it.

[Below Meigh]

Rights? Driving in a priviledge, not a right!

Excuse me but you have no rights driving. And this blackbox
would prove you either a safe driver or unsafe, period.
I'm for this as everyday I see drivers cause accidents, break the
law (besides speeding) and this would help the innocent in
defense.
How many ambulance chasers would be disqualified for their
defense of someone that made an illegal lane change, at high
speed, resulting in an accident, and this box recorded it all.
There should also be severe punishment for anyone tampering
with it.
Wait till you lose someone to vehicluar homicide, then you'll
wish otherwise.
Until we have clean, widespread, convenient, mass transit in the
US, the car will be the means of transport. And proving that the
other driver was at fault will be up to a black box (can't wait for
the NAACP to object to that name!...).

[David Arbogast]

wrong

<<There is no legitimate reason to store more than 1-2 minutes worth of driving data in the black box. Anything else is designed
to invade your privacy.>>

Tell that to F1 engine designers.
Tell that to GE turbine manufacturers.
Tell that to motorcycle engine tuners.
Tell that to any person with an interest in monitoring their engine for any reason they can come up with. Like me. I installed my own "black box."

Sorry, but this technology has been used by many people for many years. And all of them used it for purposes other than invading personal privacy. You are quite simply... wrong.

when, When WHEN will people learn?

Privacy is gone. Done. The government and big corporations are stripping it away, not in small pieces here and there, but in huge rips and gouges. And the sheeple let it happen, and not only that, they beg for it to happen faster. "Protect me" they cry! "Make my life safe from everything!" they moan. "Make my decisions for me!" they pleed.

This black box? It's here to stay. It'll never go away, and soon it'll be ilegal to drive without one. Eventually, it'll be monitored on a yearly or monthly basis and you'll be fined, or your insurance will go up, based on the data in the car.

American Freedom? What a joke! The leash grows tighter every year.

But don't worry. As long as you don't do any wrong, you have nothing to fear. Just remember, that *you* don't define right and wrong. Big brother does that.

[David Arbogast]

Ck R FUD

<<This black box? It's here to stay. It'll never go away, and soon it'll be ilegal to drive without one. Eventually, it'll be monitored on a yearly or monthly basis and you'll be fined, or your insurance will go up, based on the data in the car.>>

Wow... look at that. Speculation! FUD! Future predictions with no evidence! A black box by itself does not violate privacy in any way. The LAWS you speculate on DO. See the difference?

Now, where is your supporting evidence suggesting that the laws WILL be created? No speculative evidence, please. No conspiracy theories, please. How about the names of congressmen trying to introduce bills that we can examine?

What? There are none? hmmmmm.......

Really?!

I notice you don't post your name and address, and even if it were required you would still have the FREEDOM to choose privacy by not posting. So please slow down with the "all freedom is gone" nonsense.

PS:
Spoon Jabber isn't my real name. ;)

Buy a clue

You want evidence? Look in the history books. But if that's not enough for you, lets talk about laws already on the books:
Copyright Law. DMCA.

Then, why don't you do a quick look at what the gun laws have been changed to. If that's still not enough, then tak a look at what the RIAA and the MPAA are doing with the laws that they helped create.

[techtype]

Another reader of. . .

This is not typed in sarcasms, but in agreement. Let me name a few books:
Brave New World : Aldous Huxley
1984 : Shaw
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (Movie : Blade Runner): Philip K. Dick
Minority Report : Philip K. Dick
Butterfly Revolution : (can not remember the author)
Roller Ball (Movie of the same Title) : Don't remember the author
Dune : Frank Herbert
These are all books based on technology run amuck, do not get me wrong I believe in technology at a controlled pace. I've been into computational devices since the age of 12 (analog computational devices), I am 54 now. Just that all information does not have to collected or if collected used.

[Hinesy]

Opt in option must evolve

Once I buy the car and roll it off the lot, nobody has any right to know where I go or how fast (or slow) I get there, within the accepted boundaries of our society (pull me over if you catch me speeding officer, and I will thank you for doing your job).

Americans must defend their civil liberties and demand that these devices are opt-in only. Praise to the story author for calling greater attention to this trend. I'd love to see privacy advocates take it up as one of their next big issues going forward.

[David Arbogast]

calm down just a bit

<<nobody has any right to know where I go or how fast I get there, within the accepted boundaries of our society>>

Okay. I'll go along with that even though there are arguments to the contrary. But a black-box does not violate this right. In any way. Turn it off. Pull it out. Erase the memory. Fudge the data. As of RIGHT NOW, any data collected by a vehicle's black box is your property.

Until legislation controls how the data is collected and used, the black-box is incapable of violating your rights. Anything else is pure speculation at this point.

[jachamp]

The sad thing is...

that these boxes are connected to the automobile's computer system.

they cannot be disabled nor can they be removed and ford even told me that if i was able to find a way to bypass or remove it, the warranty on my f250 would be void.

Aftermarket

I can forsee a tremendous aftermarket demand for some enterprising startup to reverse engineer these devices, leaving in the required electronics for engine, braking, air bag control while removing the data and position recording.

Illegal? That doesn't slow down the satellite decoder guys and in this case is justified to thwart the DOJ from pounding one more nail in our coffins.

[BattleAce7101]

black box

A co-worker of mine said there is no such thing as privacy. I say that I have a god given right to privacy. I might live in a community but I have a God given right to liberty, land(untaxed land ) and the pursuit of happiness. You can include a right to privacy also. This issue of no privacy will result in civil unrest at some point. Americans are not like Europeans. We like as much freedom as possible. We want the right to live without government intrusion. The good thing is that techies will find a way to bypass these devices for a fee. I will have mine removed if it is in my car even if it becomes illegal.

Americans don't value privacy

Some may value the right to privacy, but most would rather the gov't do and provide everything for them. Most do want gov't intrusion. "Give me health care!" "Give me a job!" "Give me protection from all evils!" This is what most Americans want from their gov't. The US experiment in democracy has out-lived it's usefullness. It's time to try something else. Rights and freedoms are no longer cherished by many of Americans, so "democracy" (aka, a republic) is on its way out.

They're everywhere

Before the laments regarding personal privacy go too far, recognize that these items are present in a broad variety of devices. Should we ask each person that boards an aircraft if they want the black box turned off?

I agree that there's a very fine line between gathering information to build safer cars and encroaching on personal privacy. Rather than focusing on IF these devices encroach (they do, and it will get more common, not less) let's focus on setting reasonable guidelines and standards so that consumers know what to expect. This isn't unique - how long until microwave ovens sense an RFID tag and note that the last time that item was purchased, 3 minutes was too long to cook...so it automatically reduces to 2:30.? Is this an invasion of my privacy? Where is the line?

[m.meister]

Re: They're everywhere

Should we ask each person that boards an aircraft if they want
the black box turned off?

First - I don't own the plane. I own my car.
Second - you are already treated as a criminal for flying (and
thusly tracked). Don't think so? Somehow believe being asked to
strip down, provide all your belongings for inspection doesn't
demean you as a human being because it's for your safety?

Finally -- you have to draw the line. If you do not, then the
government will draw it for you, and it'll determine is that the
line is behind you (so you can't even see it). Mind you, our
government has done some very horrible things to its citizens in
the past, all with "good reason". If you believe you can trust the
government to "do the right thing", you are just plain naive.

[Gromit801]

Air Travel

If you travel on a commercial airline, you have no reasonable
expectation of privacy. I do have that expectation, in my
personal auto.

When in Rome...

Do as the Americans. What I mean by this, is that we're a lot like Rome. We're going to fall sometime soon. Probably in the next 20 years. We've stripped the rights of our people. We've enabled programs like Carnivore (now defunct) and another program that can track the every online movement of anyone in the United States. We've enacted the Patriot act which enables anyone government agency to come into your home and take anything they want as evidence against you for being a "terrorist." People like MArtha Stuart get a slap on the wrist but we'd face up to 20 years in prison for the same crime.

America is no more a melting pot. More of a cesspool run and controlled by those who have fame and fortune. Not by the guy who builds your home, or the guy that cleans your drains or builds your roads.

We're heading for a time of trouble. Be prepared for the $20,000.00 Y2025 package that includes oatmeal, blankets, and cyanide pills for the whole family.

Automobile Black Boxes and Privacy

No one need worry about privacy if they're doing something that is legal - as long as it IS legal (or legally acceptable). So, African Americans really didn't need to worry about privacy while protesting in Mississippi during the '50's and '60's. After all, they were doing something legal, right? And, Japanese Americans didn't need to worry about being rounded up in 1942 - they were legal residents...

Personally....

Personally, I have no problem with black boxes in cars. They have proven in valuable for airplanes and I think they will for cars. However, I think there needs to be very strict limits on when the information can be taken, how it can be used and by who.

For example to be used in any type of court case it has to be by court order and only for accidents. The federal government or federal courts can't touch it and when state courts use it the information can only be kept until the case is over. We don't need a national database of car black box data.

The information can also be collected by the manufacturer of the car provided the owner agrees. By owner I mean whoever is on the title of the car (banks excluded unless they own the car for their own use. Not when people have financed through them). If two people are on the title then both have to agree. Once the owner(s) agree the information can only be used for performance analysis. They can only get statistical information and not information that links to data to a specific car (beyond model number) or owner.

The device used to collect the information from the black box must be physically attached to the black box (no wireless downloading) and for anyone other then the car manufacturer or law enforcement to own a black box downloading device it is an automatic $1 million dollar fine and 20 year federal prison term.

The black boxes need to be located inside the vehicle so that it is protected to by locked doors and security system (should the owner employ and use them).

Black box data can not be used to give speeding tickets unless the speeding caused a crash. It can't be used to give tickets for not having your seat belt on, etc. It can only be used to helf figure out who is at fault for a car crash involving other cars or pedestrians.

If all of this was done black boxes are fine with me.

Robert

[m.meister]

Re: If all of this was done black boxes are fine with me

Once you crack open the door, what makes you think the
government won't want more. Especially if they can somehow
benefit from it?

If you are to have black boxes, they should be physically
incapable of maintaining more than 1-2 minutes of data (plenty
to assess a crash).

Normally court protection would be sufficient, but courts have
strayed away from protecting citizens and granting more leeway
to police and FBI (especially when "Homeland Security" is thrown
around). Courts have already deemed in legal for the police to
attach a GPS device onto your car to track you in the state of
Washington -- without a court order. What makes you think they
would look after your privacy when they already all this
behavior?

[Gromit801]

Aircraft Black Box Comparisons

Let's put an end to the comparisons to the recorders in aircraft
once and for all. An aircraft with a black box recorder, is either
a commercially owned carrier, or military. If you are a private
aircraft owner, you're not required to have a recorder in your
plane. If you fly commercially, you have no expectation of
privacy. If you're military, you have no concept of privacy!

In my own car, where I go, or how I get there, is no one's
business as long as I'm obeying the traffic laws.

[Razzl]

Time to buy an American Chopper...

You can bet the boys at Orange County Choppers will never put one of these on their bikes. If the Orwellian insectoids push too hard for this we'll all have to get us a bike or a hot rod just to twit them. What do these people not get about how the public feels about its rights to privacy and to make choices?

[David Arbogast]

and its a shame

They'll never install a data recorder on a bike? Bummer.... that's a real shame. How are you supposed to analyze and collect engine data when you are driving down the road at 60mph without a recording device? Have you ever tried to properly tune dual carbs on an air-cooled engine for optimal performance at all speeds? Why do you think bikers spend money and time playing with dynos? Wouldn't it be easier to just pull your black box after a ride and do your analysis instead of paying for time on a commercial dyno?

Good point

People are always free to choose methods of transportation that don't have any of these technologies. Yet those same people (remember...they have FREEDOM of choice) still cry; <whine> "they're taking my freedoms" </whine>.

It's pretty much all "opt in" at this point. As you said, don't like it, don't buy it.

[gary_ehnert]

It is "1984"

According to Mr. McNally (a lawyer no less) if you aren't doing anything wrong why should you care if somebody is checking on you. Well that's exactly the problem... who determines if what you are doing is right or wrong? Is your own conscience, society or the morality police. All through history we have watched where seemingly innocent "if you're not doing anything wrong" scenarios have gone badly for humanity... I for one don?t want the government using ?On Star? to listen to private conversations or using the last 5 seconds of out of context data for a witch hunt to blame/ruin someone?s life? The constitution provides that we have a right to privacy and we have precious little remaining. Mr. McNally should spend some time reading the Bill of Rights and studying the Second World War.

[techtype]

This is someone that is. . .

This is from a person/lawyer that writes contracts with fine print that is going to head a morality, ethics, rights and tell us what is right and wrong according to a lawyer. Who's only obligation anymore is to lie, cheat or steal as long as it benefits them? I don't think I want someone like that. Like the recent Boeing CEO that wrote up the ethics for the corporation , then proceeded to break them because he thought he was above the ethics code, hmmm. I do not buy into the, "If'in ya ain't do notton wrong, ya got anyting to worry about(purposely misspelled)!" Ever hear of framing someone, believe me it happened to me.

So this is the new century!!

What has information technology done to all of us? It has invaded our privacy and robbed us of our identities. I, for one, cannot understand the lack of government policies to protect our privacys and identities. In fact, I feeel that the government is doing all it can to invade it.
If we are indeed in a "New Age" in our society, then government better catch up with protecting our privacy before society awakens from its lethargical state of happiness.
I for one want my privacy and will fight for it. Society may appear happy and quiet, but eventually society will only take so much.
Homeland Security? Black boxes to ensure the "truth" is told. Sure, but not at my personal expense

[Direwolf5[M]]

What if I remove it?

I don't know about you but if I buy a car that has one of these I will Cut the wires to it and remove it, it should not be required to run the car, and if for some reason the car's computer requires it i can replace that too, you can always replace the carborator and dstributor with pre-computer components and run your car fine.

[Jahntassa]

What if you remove it?

The 'black box' more often than not is not like a carbourator or distributor. It's more like an ECU. Or a PCM. More than likely it's built into the SRS system, which might also have partial control over the ABS system.

Removing said black box may disable your airbags completely, not to mention other critical functions of the car, depending on what car you have. If it's a GM, good luck. Might as well put it on the scrapyard now. And, as another poster said, say goodbye to any warranty you have.

If you want a car with no black box, buy something built before 1990 and keep it in good repair.

The black box concept isn't dangerous in my eyes, not as long as it stays at the 1-2 minutes previous to an impact. A lot of good information can be stored there. If you were going to fast, then it's your fault. You just can't lie your way out of it.

Data tracking, however, is a different concept. I don't want someone to be able to track my every move without my consent. If I had a two-way GPS system on my vehicle, I would definitely turn it off. If I had an OnStar system, I would most likely disconnect the GPS recieve antenna from it first-thing.

The bad thing isn't the paranoia about it, it's not knowing when you should be paranoid or not.

[David Arbogast]

Right On.

the Magnusson Moss Act (I believe) alludes to the fact that you can use any suitable aftermarket part without voiding your warranty. Just install an aftermarket black box that you have full control of. Problem solved.

Once again... for all the frightened people...
A Black Box is an unintelligent piece of machinery. It cannot violate your privacy. Only people can do that. And unless the contents of the black box are governed by law in an inappropriate way, or a person violates your existing rights by stealing your black box, there is no violation of privacy.

The Black Box is NOT the problem.
Speculation on future laws is what is scaring people. SPECULATION and ANTI-PRIVACY CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

[David Arbogast]

I installed my own Black Box

What's the problem? Privacy? How is a black-box a privacy issue? Once again, speculatin on what *could* happen rules through FUD. Personally, I've installed my own "black box." A recording device that keeps tabs on over 50 different engine and vehicle parameters that I can dump into my computer for analysis. Where's the problem? Your privacy is not in jeopardy until the Black-Box is mandated by law, AND it becomes illegal to tamper with it in any way. Simply installing a recorder does not violate anybody's privacy in any way, shape, or form. It is called data collection, and it is extremely useful. Until it is abused under the law, it is not a privacy issue. sheesh...

[Bill Dautrive]

Don't be stupid

I understand that it is difficult for you not to be stupid, but please try.

Installing one yourself to get data about the engine is a far cry from requiring it in all cars and you know it. Our government has never balked at invading peoples privacy. They will not be able to control themselves once the ability to track and monitor everyones driving habits. Our current government is hell bent on dismantling the constitution, and this is the sort of BS they would do in the name of 'homeland security'. One of the many ideas and phrases borrowed from the USSR and Nazi Germany.

Make them 100% optional and user configurable, with no wireless tracking ability and write a loophole free law that does not permit government access without a court order that needs the highest standards to be met. Then perhaps black boxes will be ok.

Once the government uses your black box against you, you will probably change your tune. If you don't think the government will go all out, once they have access to black boxes in every car, you are a bigger fool then you show yourself to be.

Can boxes tell lies?

What is to stop a company from selling a car with a black box that automatically reports 10 miles an hour LESS than actual speed? Or to stop an expert mechanic from setting up a service of monkeying with these boxes?

I mean, really: if one expert can build it, another can hack it. Lawyers on both sides of these cases will have to have investigations of the equipment alongside their cases either prosecuting or defending someone on "black-box" charges.

In the end, human judgement is still human judgement. We can turn technology into the same kind of "magical thinking" that once allowed early Americans to hang a person because she failed to drown, which proved she was a "witch" (the belief being that "normal" women could not swim) So after drowning the innocent and hanging the guilty, who is left?

[Bill Dautrive]

Who is left?

The cowards and idiots who blindly trust our government.

[techtype]

Can te3chnology, you bet'cha!

Simple if you want to frame someone, surreptitiously put in a eprom programmed to read 5 miles over the speed limit. So now black box reads instead of the 25 mile per hour speed limit, it will record 30 miles per hour, 5 over. Ah, if we get to recording telemetry at traffic signals and stop signs, instead of a "Green" or "Yellow" light it reads a "Red" light. See what I am saying here? And the jury would believe it because it came out the "BLACK BOX", which never lies, huh.

[herkamur]

decreased death rate

I'd just like to point out that the decreased death rate is insignificant and likely doesn't exceed the margin of error. I calculate the decrease in deaths to be only 0.84%. That's not a number I'd be cheering about.

[robbiemckay]

Black Boxes for Automobiles

Over the years, manufacturers have constructed cars that handle better, brake better, and are more crashworthy. The death rate in recent years has come down because of these factors. It would most likely have come down even more if people pushed the envelope which was enlarged with the improvements. Black boxes in cars and the knowledge that speeding and other accident contributing behavior can be captured for analysis after an event (they really aren't accidents if pushing the envelope is what caused it) would help to make the highway safer. Many pilots have been in vehicles (aircraft) that have been black box equipped for years and it has led to safety in the air. Black boxes automobiles and the safer operating techniques they would elicit will make motoring safer. No one has the legal freedom to drive recklessly anyway.

[InetUser]

a bit more

Suffice it to say that I'll have to be forced to have an RFID implant, forced to have an on demand black box in my car, and be forced to buy RFID'd products.

It's nobodys business what I do, with whom, where and when. Those are all my business as long as I'm not harming anyone else.

[InetUser]

Finally

I think that the data in the car that I own is mine. If the authorities want that data, then they have to get a search warrant to get it. Same for my private conversations either on the phone or the cell phone, as well as the content of my Internet traffic, and the same goes for any of my other data.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The government should never get absolute power.

[techoguy]

Really now

I think that all we are disagreeing is the fact that we can't choose to have the black box not installed. As of right now it doesn't seem that we can (I am not too sure but it seems that way). And the government seems to want to mandate it in cars in the future.

I for one don't think that a black box is gonna make any of us drive better. It's not going to tell us how to and when to brake or steer a car. It's not going to tell or prevent someone next to us is going to surve into us or that some pedestrian is gonna run out between parked cars right into your car's path. Or stop someone who has been drinking from driving.

If you want to stop speeding then why not just limit the cars to go up to speed limits for that state. Then no one will be speeding.

I definitely would not want to be forced to have anything that monitors me installed without my knowledge or permission.