Comments on: Blackout shows Net's fragility

A dispute between major Internet backbone companies has selectively shut down e-mail and Web sites for many online.

Class action should be taken.

I'm a small ISP with a national presents. I'm trying to grow my company so I can make a life for myself and my family. Over HALF of my user base is screwed because of this stupid dispute. I personally feel that both companies should be held responsible for business loss for those of us that have contracts with them. They are interrupting my business and causing me to loose money because of customers leaving thinking that other ISP's are better. Sure, they will leave, but when they find out that it's the same problem with the other ISP, they aren't going to simply swap back. That is lost revenue for me. Other questions I have is why does this mesh internet networking not work? Who controls the routing on the peering points? Why the hell do all these hosting companies support L3 and Cog after they decide to pull the plug on the net? If not a law suit, then boycot them for childish actions. These write up's I've read is all about who is bigger? Give me a break. It's about money? Oh please. You here's a business 101 for ya... You pull the plug on your customers, you loose money. Simple as that. Now who has such great wisdom to dispute that? I'm already taking steps to make sure my T1's, T3's are MOVED from L3 and Cogent. Neither one of them will ever have my business again. As for the dialup side of things, ALL customers that are using L3's dialups are being moved as well. THAT is the power I have. So SCREW BOTH OF YOU L3 AND COGENT!

[DoohanOK]

I hope...

I hope your business and technical prowess is superior to your spelling and grammar skills.

Class action should be taken.

I'm a small ISP with a national presents. I'm trying to grow my company so I can make a life for myself and my family. Over HALF of my user base is screwed because of this stupid dispute. I personally feel that both companies should be held responsible for business loss for those of us that have contracts with them. They are interrupting my business and causing me to loose money because of customers leaving thinking that other ISP's are better. Sure, they will leave, but when they find out that it's the same problem with the other ISP, they aren't going to simply swap back. That is lost revenue for me. Other questions I have is why does this mesh internet networking not work? Who controls the routing on the peering points? Why the hell do all these hosting companies support L3 and Cog after they decide to pull the plug on the net? If not a law suit, then boycot them for childish actions. These write up's I've read is all about who is bigger? Give me a break. It's about money? Oh please. You here's a business 101 for ya... You pull the plug on your customers, you loose money. Simple as that. Now who has such great wisdom to dispute that? I'm already taking steps to make sure my T1's, T3's are MOVED from L3 and Cogent. Neither one of them will ever have my business again. As for the dialup side of things, ALL customers that are using L3's dialups are being moved as well. THAT is the power I have. So SCREW BOTH OF YOU L3 AND COGENT!

[DoohanOK]

I hope...

I hope your business and technical prowess is superior to your spelling and grammar skills.

[OneWithTech]

Customer Service

You can obviously see that there is issues with the customer service thats being presented by Level 3. It seems as though Level 3 doesn't care about it's customer's, let alone the frustration and monetary loss by smaller companies due this greediness!

Essentially the internet isn't supposed to rely on any one company. The sites that are being affected here are sites that are hosted by these two companies.

Is there grounds for reprimand to Level 3? I think not. Can you sue Level 3? I think not. Somewhere buried deep in both Congent and Level 3 networks are terms of use for there networks.

Essentially these two companies are helping out the internet by agreeing to connect there rather large networks. Does it matter who's network is larger? NO.

Bandwidth split between these two companies is menial and the true cost is in maintenance of the networks.

I'm done.
Justin

[OneWithTech]

Customer Service

You can obviously see that there is issues with the customer service thats being presented by Level 3. It seems as though Level 3 doesn't care about it's customer's, let alone the frustration and monetary loss by smaller companies due this greediness!

Essentially the internet isn't supposed to rely on any one company. The sites that are being affected here are sites that are hosted by these two companies.

Is there grounds for reprimand to Level 3? I think not. Can you sue Level 3? I think not. Somewhere buried deep in both Congent and Level 3 networks are terms of use for there networks.

Essentially these two companies are helping out the internet by agreeing to connect there rather large networks. Does it matter who's network is larger? NO.

Bandwidth split between these two companies is menial and the true cost is in maintenance of the networks.

I'm done.
Justin

[m.meister]

Fix this or face regulation!!

I don't think these folks realize that if this "battle" goes on much
longer, many of those affected will ask their Congressman to fix it
for them.

If these two company's wish to avoid being heavily regulated, they
need to resolve this issue by some other means. Shutting down
access is not the right approach.

[TheReaperD]

Too late...

Congress is already starting. Read today's headines.

[m.meister]

Fix this or face regulation!!

I don't think these folks realize that if this "battle" goes on much
longer, many of those affected will ask their Congressman to fix it
for them.

If these two company's wish to avoid being heavily regulated, they
need to resolve this issue by some other means. Shutting down
access is not the right approach.

[TheReaperD]

Too late...

Congress is already starting. Read today's headines.

[taphilo]

Not Working as Designed

The article states that people are cut off, due to the dispute, however, this means that the net is NOT working as designed. Someone has to be specifically blocking the traffic for people to have no access for to be true.

For people to be cut off it would mean that Cogent's ONLY connection to the internet world would be through Level 3 - and then ALL of their customers would be cut off for this to be true.

If Cogent has peering with other ISPs as stated then a request would just take a longer path and you would still get to any web site via a longer alternate network path.

John, the person who wrote this, should have INSTANTLY recognized that glaring problem in IP logic of the story and looked into what is REALLY going on - and it means that Cogent does not have peering agreements to backbone ISPS which is the only way for people to be cut off.

[taphilo]

Not Working as Designed

The article states that people are cut off, due to the dispute, however, this means that the net is NOT working as designed. Someone has to be specifically blocking the traffic for people to have no access for to be true.

For people to be cut off it would mean that Cogent's ONLY connection to the internet world would be through Level 3 - and then ALL of their customers would be cut off for this to be true.

If Cogent has peering with other ISPs as stated then a request would just take a longer path and you would still get to any web site via a longer alternate network path.

John, the person who wrote this, should have INSTANTLY recognized that glaring problem in IP logic of the story and looked into what is REALLY going on - and it means that Cogent does not have peering agreements to backbone ISPS which is the only way for people to be cut off.

If a Punk Kid With a Worm Did This...

Lock his ass in prison for a million years.

What we have here is a Rogue Corporation that in a Terroristic nature is holding the entire Internet for ransom, disrupting business and work for tens of millions of Americans, and creating Restraint of Trade.

This is a TERRORIST ACTION on the part of Level Three Communications, Inc.

Glad to see James Bond checked in to this [heh], he has a point, if this were the 70's or 80's, this would be prime fodder for a movie with James Bond being sent to kill a madman holding the communications of the world for ransom because of his greed.

Telephone companies are regulated for this very reason. If a Telephone company did this [and one in Kansas owned by a Republican big-wheel in the Kansas Legislature recently did], there would be so many Judges swirling in with injunctions, it would look like a flock of Ravens - just like with that Republican ******* in Kansas who didn't want to terminate VoIP calls to his system.

This works two ways.

Either we give the free-market system a chance, and force Level Three into total abjectg bankruptcy, or we get Congress to make sure this crap NEVER happens again.

In fact, I say, why don't we do both!

They have taken money from my pockets in an act of Corporate Terrorism, hey, we should and do have a right to make sure they go into BANKRUPTCY!

SELL ORDER ON LEVEL THREE!!!

Oh, and call your Congresscritters, if you lost money today because you couldn't work!

Conversely...

For those Level Three apologists here, I guess you fully support punk kids with worms too.

There is no F'ing diff between the two, in fact, I challange you to come up with a convincing difference between Level Three and a punk kid with a worm.

The end effect is identical. Next they'll be supporting bin-Laden [Bush's buddy] taking out MAE.

good point..

geez, its not like the company stole some beer on friday night from safeway,.. and got locked up for a couple of days... and needs public counsel to get out...

if corporations get the same rights as individual humans, then they should be held just as liable for their actions as individual humans are....

If a Punk Kid With a Worm Did This...

Lock his ass in prison for a million years.

What we have here is a Rogue Corporation that in a Terroristic nature is holding the entire Internet for ransom, disrupting business and work for tens of millions of Americans, and creating Restraint of Trade.

This is a TERRORIST ACTION on the part of Level Three Communications, Inc.

Glad to see James Bond checked in to this [heh], he has a point, if this were the 70's or 80's, this would be prime fodder for a movie with James Bond being sent to kill a madman holding the communications of the world for ransom because of his greed.

Telephone companies are regulated for this very reason. If a Telephone company did this [and one in Kansas owned by a Republican big-wheel in the Kansas Legislature recently did], there would be so many Judges swirling in with injunctions, it would look like a flock of Ravens - just like with that Republican ******* in Kansas who didn't want to terminate VoIP calls to his system.

This works two ways.

Either we give the free-market system a chance, and force Level Three into total abjectg bankruptcy, or we get Congress to make sure this crap NEVER happens again.

In fact, I say, why don't we do both!

They have taken money from my pockets in an act of Corporate Terrorism, hey, we should and do have a right to make sure they go into BANKRUPTCY!

SELL ORDER ON LEVEL THREE!!!

Oh, and call your Congresscritters, if you lost money today because you couldn't work!

Conversely...

For those Level Three apologists here, I guess you fully support punk kids with worms too.

There is no F'ing diff between the two, in fact, I challange you to come up with a convincing difference between Level Three and a punk kid with a worm.

The end effect is identical. Next they'll be supporting bin-Laden [Bush's buddy] taking out MAE.

good point..

geez, its not like the company stole some beer on friday night from safeway,.. and got locked up for a couple of days... and needs public counsel to get out...

if corporations get the same rights as individual humans, then they should be held just as liable for their actions as individual humans are....

Cogent Should Seize The Opportunity To Be The Bigger Person

Cogent has a golden opportunity to agree to a 30 or 60 day payment to get things turned back on, while the two sides try to work out their differences. Level3 has already shown themselves to be pretty shortsighted without first announcing this publicly and giving everyone adequate time to try to make plans. By Cogent agreeing in the short term and getting everything working again for the good of the collective Internet, they could at the same time make Level3 look even more stupid in the Internet's eyes (not sure that is even possible at this point), and it would be worth more in Internet goodwill than Cogent's entire market cap. Come one Mr. Schaeffer, show the Internet that you are the bigger man, and are not going to stoop down to Level3, which right now is in the gutter.

Cogent Should Seize The Opportunity To Be The Bigger Person

Cogent has a golden opportunity to agree to a 30 or 60 day payment to get things turned back on, while the two sides try to work out their differences. Level3 has already shown themselves to be pretty shortsighted without first announcing this publicly and giving everyone adequate time to try to make plans. By Cogent agreeing in the short term and getting everything working again for the good of the collective Internet, they could at the same time make Level3 look even more stupid in the Internet's eyes (not sure that is even possible at this point), and it would be worth more in Internet goodwill than Cogent's entire market cap. Come one Mr. Schaeffer, show the Internet that you are the bigger man, and are not going to stoop down to Level3, which right now is in the gutter.

P2P 2.0 for my PP

P2P 2.0 for my PP

P2P 2.0 for my PP

P2P 2.0 for my PP

Intentional Black Hole or Lack of Transit connections!

Intentional Black Hole or Lack of Transit connections!

It seems that Level 3 and Cogent are intentionally creating a black hole just to stir up the other companies? customers and save them from spending more $ in transit costs to route around the problem.

I don?t care if the peering connection is cut because of disputes. What?s really wrong is that traffic didn?t get routed around the problem. Both companies are being paid by there respective customers for internet access not ?just part of the internet?

Do level 3 and/or Cogent not have transit connections to 3rd party backbones?
Do they only have peering agreements?

Or do they have them and refuse to use them and instead create a black hole!

Motivations to not use their transit connections are obvious:
1. To create more upset users on each others networks. (to force the other to give in)
2. It would cost them more.

If they used the transit connections like they should they would both have to pay for the traffic the goes through the transit connections to the others network.

Level 3 and Cogent - You want to cut the cable fine. You better pay to route it another way. That is what your customers are paying you for! It?s not like you didn?t know for 3 months that this was going to happen!

I don?t want to be a customer for any ISP that can?t pay to route traffic to work around a problem like this.

I am a customer of both ISP?s indirectly and am looking to replace them both with companies that will be more responsible.

Intentional Black Hole or Lack of Transit connections!

Intentional Black Hole or Lack of Transit connections!

It seems that Level 3 and Cogent are intentionally creating a black hole just to stir up the other companies? customers and save them from spending more $ in transit costs to route around the problem.

I don?t care if the peering connection is cut because of disputes. What?s really wrong is that traffic didn?t get routed around the problem. Both companies are being paid by there respective customers for internet access not ?just part of the internet?

Do level 3 and/or Cogent not have transit connections to 3rd party backbones?
Do they only have peering agreements?

Or do they have them and refuse to use them and instead create a black hole!

Motivations to not use their transit connections are obvious:
1. To create more upset users on each others networks. (to force the other to give in)
2. It would cost them more.

If they used the transit connections like they should they would both have to pay for the traffic the goes through the transit connections to the others network.

Level 3 and Cogent - You want to cut the cable fine. You better pay to route it another way. That is what your customers are paying you for! It?s not like you didn?t know for 3 months that this was going to happen!

I don?t want to be a customer for any ISP that can?t pay to route traffic to work around a problem like this.

I am a customer of both ISP?s indirectly and am looking to replace them both with companies that will be more responsible.

Looks like the link went back up...

My ISP uses Level3 and it seems I can connect directly from level3 to cogent networks via traceroute... Did something happen to make them turn it back on?

[RavingEniac]

Yes, what happened?

I'd be interested in knowing what happened too. I suspect that Level 3 didn't realize what big toes they were stepping on when they shut the connection. But that's just a hunch. There might be a good follow-up story to do on this.

Looks like the link went back up...

My ISP uses Level3 and it seems I can connect directly from level3 to cogent networks via traceroute... Did something happen to make them turn it back on?

[RavingEniac]

Yes, what happened?

I'd be interested in knowing what happened too. I suspect that Level 3 didn't realize what big toes they were stepping on when they shut the connection. But that's just a hunch. There might be a good follow-up story to do on this.

[testtest]

YOU ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OUT OF THIS

Any decent provider will not be relying on one network and will
have already rerouted traffic through other providers. This
should be a non issue and has been for me and countless
others. With the way you guys are talking, it sounds like the
world is coming to end. Give me a break! The Internet is not
dying! I can't get to Cogent through Level-3, so I just get to
Cogent through WilTel.

This would be like if a road closed down and someone said that
the nation's transportation system is down and we are all
screwed! Give me a break! Just take another road, you idiots!
CNet really knows how to blow stories completely out of
proportion. Blackout Shows Net's Fragility. Blackout my ass.
If you have a blackout it's your own damn fault for not having an
alternate route.

Wrong, It is a big deal,

Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn?t mean that it's not to others.

For example.. I have servers at a level 3 data center and customers who's ISP (MPower) is (was) using cogent (at least for there T1 customers in south oc, ca). there is no way for myself or my customers to route around the problem.. we have to get a different ISP! Which is not a quick thing in the area. Or wait for them to fix the routing.

So it?s a vary big deal when everyone gets sent home because no one can connect to the server to do any work.

[testtest]

YOU ARE MAKING TOO MUCH OUT OF THIS

Any decent provider will not be relying on one network and will
have already rerouted traffic through other providers. This
should be a non issue and has been for me and countless
others. With the way you guys are talking, it sounds like the
world is coming to end. Give me a break! The Internet is not
dying! I can't get to Cogent through Level-3, so I just get to
Cogent through WilTel.

This would be like if a road closed down and someone said that
the nation's transportation system is down and we are all
screwed! Give me a break! Just take another road, you idiots!
CNet really knows how to blow stories completely out of
proportion. Blackout Shows Net's Fragility. Blackout my ass.
If you have a blackout it's your own damn fault for not having an
alternate route.

Wrong, It is a big deal,

Just because it's not a big deal to you doesn?t mean that it's not to others.

For example.. I have servers at a level 3 data center and customers who's ISP (MPower) is (was) using cogent (at least for there T1 customers in south oc, ca). there is no way for myself or my customers to route around the problem.. we have to get a different ISP! Which is not a quick thing in the area. Or wait for them to fix the routing.

So it?s a vary big deal when everyone gets sent home because no one can connect to the server to do any work.