Comments on: Unearthing the origins of Firefox

Firefox lead engineer Ben Goodger explains the behind-the-scenes decisions leading to the release of this increasingly popular alternative to Microsoft's Internet Explorer browser.

[lewissalem]

firefox is great.

..check it out!

[Foggy]

Interesting

I might have to take another look at Firefox to view Firefox and Thunderbird as the natural progression from 10 years with Netscape. Great interview! I liked the information provided. The current Netscape is so close to Mozilla's browser, it's hard to make the leap just yet since I want the intergration of Browser & EMail programs which I guess is in the works at Mozilla. Most people spend more time using their email programs than their browsers, so I want what I currently have to flip back and forth as I do with Netscape. As has been suggested, if the idiots at AOL convert Netscape into a IE clone, then I'm switching to Firefox ASAP.

[iqula]

Firefox getting there nicely but...

I like firefox and as a developer use it for all my testing, I find if a site works in firefox it generally works in most browsers.

The only thing that bugs me is that I and no one can really use it as their default browser as some importent sites and most others still only work in IE and more complex intranet applications also require IE.

So at home I find it pretty pointless having more than one browser. This is surly the way 99% or regular users will think if they even know there is another browser.

What I don't understand, and hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me is why a 100% IE compatiable browser (script, MSHTML, MSJscript) cannot be developed and we can be done with it all?

[waltsjc]

answers

First, a comment. I guess it all depends on your definition of "important site". I have found ZERO "important" sites that don't work with firefox and friends. I define "important" sites that I need to do my job, online banking, shopping, etc. There are a few that you need to "lie" and make them think you are using IE, but very very few that don't actually work at all. The best option in this case is to complain to the webmaster of that site. There is a MUCH better chance that the site will get fixed with community pressure.

Second, IE frequently fails to follow the standards. IE needs to be fixed - not the standards. You want firefox to not follow the standards? That's nuts!

Third, some of the technology used in IE is Windows Only. Firefox (mozilla) is cross platform. You can't add activeX to MacOS (for example.) Furthermore, some of these "features" may be patent encumbered.

The world is changing with or without Microsoft. If it refuses to keep up with the world, it will eventually lose due to market pressures. The world is much larger than the USA.

compatible non-standards

Yep, the simple answer is Microsoft not following standards. Not the other way around (others needing to follow Microsoft).

Their sheer market position (illegally obtained) allows them to make proprietary extensions and have them widely deployed to undermine the competition and claim another market (yet again). Why should we let corporate interests dictate standards, when open standards are to the benefit of everyone? They also help keep software prices low (often free) and security and usability high.

Imagine if the web wasn't built on tcp/ip, http and other open standards, but proprietary extensions based on those? Would we see the level of innovation we see now, or would the web still be confined to pockets "here and there", with users worried about deploying things 'cause of high licensing costs paid to Corproration X (remember IE and IE-related technologies only comes 'free' if you BUY windows) and limited compatibility?

Compatibility and standards

"The only thing that bugs me is that I and no one can really use it as their default browser as some importent sites and most others still only work in IE and more complex intranet applications also require IE."

The only important site that I have found doesn't work with Firefox is Windows Update. There's a big surprise. Most others only work with IE? Other than Microsoft sites, I have yet to find a single site through my personal surfing that doesn't work with Firefox. I think you're grossly overstating the lack of compatibility out there.

"What I don't understand, and hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me is why a 100% IE compatiable browser (script, MSHTML, MSJscript) cannot be developed and we can be done with it all?"

Should standards be guided by proprietary software from an illegally obtained monopoly or should software be guided by standards set by open communities of industry experts? I know which answer Microsoft prefers but I have to say that I couldn't disagree more with Microsoft. It is in the best interest of everyone who doesn't have a stake in Microsoft (and probably at least some who do) for standards to be set independently of Microsoft's proprietary software.

[twhiting9276]

Re: Firefox

"What I don't understand, and hopefully someone can shed some light on this for me is why a 100% IE compatiable browser (script, MSHTML, MSJscript) cannot be developed and we can be done with it all?"
IE isn't the standard, Gecko browsers are.
IE is years behind standards and compliance, yet people still develop for IE rather than gecko browsers. Why? Because it's forced upon all windows users at birth.
That said:
Why would someone want to base a browser off of THE browser that is targeted by 99% of adware, hit by numerous exploits and the like. The only thing you can do with a browser that bad is toss it out, rebuild it. Supposedly Microsoft is doing that with IE7, but I highly doubt that.

"The only thing that bugs me is that I and no one can really use it as their default browser as some importent sites and most others still only work in IE and more complex intranet applications also require IE. "
Actually, it's very possible to do. I've had Firefox as my default browser since before it was firefox, on Linux or XP it's always my default browser. I use IE only when I HAVE to (I actually do have a couple of client helpdesks that only work properly in IE). The only times I've had issues were when I tried to open a link in Windows Media Player, which I don't use but rarely (iTunes is more efficient).

Long and short:
It IS posible to use Firefox as your default browser, you just have to be willing to put up with inept coders who desire to use products like FrontPage rather than truly code ;)

[Not Bugged]

Isn't it off?

Isn't it odd that with all the security problems IE has people still insist that must use IE because about 1% of the sites they visit insist on it. So if you used IE for that one percent you could browse in relative safety 99 percent of the time. Hasn't anyone heard of risk reduction.

[Smarterdanu]

How to fix that

You can download an extension that allows you to open pages in IE directly from FireFox. You can download it here http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=35

That may help ya ;P

What?

I find if a site works in firefox it generally works in most browsers.

I disagree. Or at least, my sites work in all browsers except for IE. I develop websites that are standards-compliant to the tee; they work and look good in Mozilla/Firefox. When viewed with IE, many times they look horrible. This can be attributed to the fact that IE is so far from being standards-compliant.

I use GNU/Linux and other open source software exclusively. This makes it difficult to design websites for the (current) 95%- of viewers that use proprietary garbage.

[mpotter28]

no brand affiliation or idolatry.

finally someone who makes "cents"

FireFox + ThunderBird = Great Internet Experience

Tabbed browsing, popup blocking, stability, safety, themes, those are great features from firefox that Ms doesnt have (ok ok popup has been added only for consumer presure not for a planned feature on IE).

I don't mind having to use IE for the 5 or 6 sites (most of them banks) that only support IE or Netscape. On the other hand I have a greater web experience by using firefox.

Thunderbird is just GREAT for just one of the features: INTELLIGENT JUNK MAIL CONTROL!!.. I have to admit that I miss some features form outlook express like identities and password protection to identities but just for the junk control is worth to use it as default!!, it adapts to the junk that you have been receiving, not to strict and inflexible "mail rules" that any spammer can fool easyly.

Try them out everyone... after tabbed browing and junk mail control you wont have any reason to go back to MS applications..

Greetings from Mexico
Augusto Ayala

[twhiting9276]

Re: Thunderbird

"I have to admit that I miss some features form outlook express like identities and password protection to identities but just for the junk control is worth to use it as default!!"

Admittedly, I haven't tried T-Bird yet, however, that's mainly because I have a mail client that's been doing that, purchased it a year and a half ago, and it's a breeze.

If you're after identies, junk mail control, filters and the like, check out pocomail (http://www.pocomail.com). The junk rules can be edited to your taste in an editor, at default they are not turned on, so you don't have to deal with them trashing your mail. The program can be set to backup your mail however often you want it to (something I've yet to find in other clients), it's an absolute gem of a client. While it's not free, it's fully worth the price, and comes with a 30 day eval.

[nrlz]

What about K-Meleon?

If you want a real replacement for IE than K-Meleon is a better alternative than Firefox. K-Meleon is less bloated than Firefox yet uses the same rendering engine as Firefox so you get the standards compliance. K-Meleon's user interface is also native and so starts up faster and integrates nicer with Windows in general. It even uses the IE5 icons which should be more familiar for users.

http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/

[rdean]

FrontPage and other tools

FrontPage, at least in its latest version, is supposed to be better with standards compliance. I haven't checked to see if this claim holds any water.

I've had good results with Dreamweaver. The MX release has moved more towards W3 compliance and it is a rock solid product. It also supports JSP, ASP, PHP development internally with database integration wizards. The CSS editor is pretty cool, too, although TopStyle Pro is a good add-on.

[aabcdefghij987654321]

why a second browser?

Firefox takes up about as much disc space as having spybot search and destroy, syware blaster, lavasoft adaware or the other alternative, 600 spyware items that seem to accompany internet explorer. I`ve used firefox as my default browser for about 4 months and haven't yet turned up one single spyware item scanning about once a week with both sypbot and adaware ( with IE i was getting at least one item every time!). As for firefox not working with some important sites, the only thing i personally use ie for now is windows update. I have installed about 8 or 10 extensions and the one i use the least is "view in Internet Explorer", which i have probably used about 2 or 3 times. In my opinion Firefox kicks Internet Explorer's ass about 65 ways if you count straight up.