Comments on: Judge to EchoStar: Disable your DVRs

But federal appeals court blocks TiVo-favored injunction affecting millions of Dish subscribers.

[Mr. Network]

PWNT!

$90M Ouch! There are going to be some unhappy stock holders.

[mcepat]

let me guess

TIVO has copyrighted pause, rewind and record and now nobody can use it?

It can't be that anyone is actually trying to copy TIVO's UI menu system because why would anyone copy crap?

[thedreaming]

Ouch, just plain ouch...

Dishnetwork is going to have alot of pissed off customers. My advice to them, comply with the order, but turn off only one box per week, which will give them plenty of time to call up the subscriber and explain why the box is not working, then give them the number of the stupid judge that favored tivo over dishnetwork and let the customers all yell at them!

[umbrae]

Glad I run a Open-PVR...

Never rely on 3rd party products. *hits fast forward on this home-brewed PVR on Dish Network*

[GrandpaN1947]

Reperations

Does that mean people like myself will get compensation from EchoStar for the loss of our purchased machine? If Echostar is stealing from TiVo, aren't they stealing from me too? Will this lead to the disabling of my PC because it could be used to copy music, will my stereo receiver be disabled because it violates the DMCA? Is "Disabling" going to affect all my good stuff because it doesn't comply with someone else's patent or DRM rights?

[umbrae]

You are right to be concerned...

You will need to work with EchoStar... They will probably give you a free unit once they have a non-infringing product. However, you never technically "OWN" equipment like this. You are paying an equipment upgrade fee which is not the same as a "sale".

Your concerns over DRM are valid. Make sure you communicate with your congressmen on the importance of fair use, and vote with this issue in mind. Right now they have been trying to enforce the "broadcast flag" which would allow the content owner to "block" or "disable" your ability to copy/record a show from cable, sat, or broadcast. Everyone should be afraid of this.

[Jackson Cracker]

Reperations (sic)

It would be more logical to say that if Echostar is stealing from TiVo and you are getting
a stolen product, then you are also stealing from TiVo rather than Echostar stealing from you.
However I doubt that TiVo will do what the RIAA did and start suing the end users.

[Mystigo]

Good For TiVo

This is one of the few recent patent cases discussed on cnet
where I totally agree with the outcome. TiVo came up with a
great idea that revolutionized how we watch TV, and instead of
just sitting on it, waiting to sue the first big company to
implement it, they actually created a brilliantly implemented
product and a market for it.

We all like to complain when someone with a patent, that never
even attempted to bring a product to market, comes out of the
woodwork after 10 years and sues some hugely successful
manufacturer. But in this case, TiVo took their idea and ran with
it. They are totally on the high road when it comes to defending
their efforts.

And by the way, unless there is a VCR out there that can
continue to tape a show while you pause or rewind it, the
analogies with VCRs are completely without merit.

[jabbotts]

I better call ATI and let them know about this

I'm not sure if they realize that the all-in-wonder I was using years before TIVO copies and infinges on there post ATI patent.

ATI should be notified so they can stop producing video cards with tv-tuner chips before TIVO hit's them up for a 90million pay-off.

Did the sarcasm come through clearly? I can never tell if it comes through for the audience.

Seriously though, the best idea so far on this comment string is haveing the judgs (I'd add TIVO's) phone number handed out to all the folks who'll be calling about the disabled (hard drive based) VCRs.

As stated already, in today's age of cheap hardware "customer is always wrong" business, why would you buy a 3rd party crippleware device when you can build a free and fare use PVR yourself for less? Here's your parts list, you too can do what powerusers where doing long before TIVOcrack:

1. One standard off the shelf desktop case machine with standard guts (mobo, disk drives)

2. Add ram for sum of 2 gigs

3. Add video card / tv-tuner confirming that they are supported by linux. (backoff Fanboys, the OS is the better choice for the function)

4. grab a liveCD that includes or is specifically designed around one of the *nix based media center managers.

What do you know.. a saturday afternoon's tinkering and a short list of "good enough" proprietary hardware from your corner computer shop.

Welcome to free (as in speach) and fair use of your lawfully obtained media feed.

[WJeansonne]

Yours is a really dumb argument

Sure you could compare Tivo to a VCR, since both are designed to record Television or time shift viewing. And to selectively attribute the benefits of patents to companies that suit your taste is ridiculous too. Tivo is for all intents and purposes owned by Hollyweird companies who have all their "stars" promote it. What a sneaky underhanded tactic. But I digress. Patents are what helped found this nation and American business, so please go take some classes on history and business before you spout off so ignorantly.

[qwerty75]

yeah

Recording a show and watching it later is so new and innovative.

What the storage medium is, is irrelavant.

This shows why the patent system needs an overhaul.

[disco-legend-zeke]

Another Example of PATENT ABUSE

rewading the patent at http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6233389.PN.&OS=PN/6233389&RS=PN/6233389

you can see that they are just taking the VCR and adding the word DIGITAL.

using a hard drive instead of tape is obvious to any worker in the field.

there is NOTHING NEW OR UNIQUE to this invention, its merely an example of how the patent system is abused.

EchoStar needs to examine expired VCR patents. The only innovation is simultaneous playback while recording, which the patent concedes can easily be accomplished by using two VCR's.

It may be possible for echostar to disable "simultaneous playback and recording" to circumvent the injunction while they prepare their case to invalidate the TIVO patents.

this becomes a moot point next year as WINDOWS VISTA will begin replacing embedded hardware solutions.

[Mystigo]

This is a perfect application of patent law

"The only innovation is simultaneous playback while recording,
which the patent concedes can easily be accomplished by using
two VCR's."

This is the very heart of the TiVo experience! (Coupled with a
superb UI). This is what changed the world. To dismiss this as
irrelevent, is a bit disingenuous to say the least.

If EchoStar's path to compliance is to remove the simultaneous
playback with recording, then I suspect most people will
consider their offering little more than a glorified VCR. Of course
they can use two to emulate the TiVo experience, if they don't
mind constantly switching inputs, manually synchronizing
viewing points, having two remotes with different IR bands, two
record lists to maintain, etc etc. Hey what a GREAT idea! They
should patent that. They'll make a killing!

TiVo came up with a fantastic idea, patented it, built a terrific
product and created a huge market for it. They deserve patent
protection.

[TV James]

TiVO should become extinct

It's sad that something like this is able to become a patent in the first place. You should be able to point the the analog tape recorder or VCR as prior art and say "been there, done that." This should be the evolution of the recording device, not a new idea. It's not that brilliant.

And so lame companies unable to compete in the marketplace (despite apparently having the "idea" first) continue to exist despite their inability to provide something compelling enough for people to buy it.

[joecm]

More than a VCR...

If you think that a DVR is equivalent to a VCR, you are just not paying attention. Tivo has changed the way we all watched television by creating a unique product. Could someone else have invented it? Sure. But why should cable companies be able to clone the Tivo and put it out of business just because they have the deep pockets?

[Anon-Y-mous]

ReplayTV has all of this. Tiv-ZERO copied them!

Also DishNetwork had the original PVR's out in early 99, before TiVo was even heard of.

Between ReplayTV and DishNetwork, AND geeks doing the same thing with ATI video cards on their PC's, 'prior art' definitely existed for digital storage and playback and pausing of TV.

[HandGlad2]

Good for Tivo

As I recall, Tivo was the first to market with this idea. If there was some reason that there should not been a patent issued for Tivo, that's irrelevant to whether Echostar infringed upon Tivo's existing patent. Tivo has a valid patent which they are claiming was infringed by Echostar. Tivo has made DVRs significant in the marketplace as well. VCRs are not nearly as prevalent at any of the major electronic retailers now. Good for Tivo!

[Anon-Y-mous]

Replay and Tivo shipped within 4 weeks

ReplayTV - Founded 1997, April 26, 1999 Initial Release Date

TiVo - Founded 1997, March 31, 1999 Initial Release Date

DishNetwork and Microsoft created the DishPlayer 500 based on *previous* WebTV work, and that was also shipping in 1999.

[bcas400e]

Dish DVR

Ha,

Dish's DVRs break down so often I would dare so not too many are actually fully functional anyway!

We had Dish dvr and TiVo, and TiVo worked for 3 years with ZERO problems. Went to dish and their DVR, replaced 2 in the first 9 months.

bye bye Dish!

[E B]

Already being blocked

A federal court has temporarily blocked this ruling already. Whew.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/presskit/press/index.shtml

I hope Dish is right and that they win this thing in the end -- I'd much rather record the way their system does it (directly from the digital feed from the dish, rather than converting it to analog and then back to digital again). Their system is pretty slick, and is cheaper than Tivo (and different enough in its guts that it should be able to avoid their patent).

Not only that, but Dish actually cares about its customers a lot more than Tivo seems to care about any of its customers. Has the fact that Tivo couldn't give away their boxes, but had to license or arm-twist DirectTV and cable companies into licensing their software given anybody a clue yet? Then they go tinkering with the skip button and showing ads while you're fast-forwarding...very intrusive. No thanks. Dish is better!

[shoffmueller]

What a bunch of stupid comments

Tivo is just like having two vcrs? What, are you nuts? Whoever invented the mp3 player - they don't deserve a patent because an 8-track was out 30 year prior to that. Does pretty much the same thing.

[qwerty75]

mp3 should not be patented

Being compression is not new and MP3 is nothing more then an algorithm.

Tivo is an obvious extension of the VCR, and is garbage to boot.

[datacowboy]

Ya'll should read the proceedings from April

TiVo won the original patent dispute back in April for some key reasons. Today's news is just a follow-on from that.

The thing is that E* was working with another company on DVR technology around the same time TiVo was introduced. The difference was that the technology behind the E* product cost around $15,000! And their only customer for the product was the US Military.

James Barton invented what is now called the Barton media switch as part of the TiVo device and this technology was much, much less expensive. Within the range of consumers.

Then Barton and Ramsey went to E* to peddle their technology and hopefully enter into a partnership. Much like they later did with DirecTV. They left behind a prototype, which E* never returned, and a short time later out came the first DishPlayer. Amazingly within the price range of consumers, or part of a monthly service fee. E* plowed ahead without further discussion with TiVo.

Whether you debate the validity of the TiVo time warp patent does not matter, that argument is over. They have the patent. And from the court proceedings in April, E* could not distance their DVR from infringement. And the history of things didn't help them either.

It's all public record, you can check for yourself.