Comments on: Fighting Microsoft's piracy check
The software pushes ahead with a piracy check tool for Windows as some users complain about system troubles and unwanted data collection.
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Yet, they are aware of the much greater instances of piracy in other countries (China comes to mind) and apparently prefer to do nothing, taking the view that "we know they are using pirated software, but we want them to be OUR pirated software, so they become future customers ". Does this make sense to anyone?
Wish I had a Mac......
Advantage) copy of Windows and the SGA copy protection validation system checks to make sure your system has no illegal files on it and validates that your system in in compliance with current law. After the checks, you can be sure when your system boots up, that no lawsuits from the gang will be coming your way. People will feel much more comfortable knowing their machines are in compliance.
Come to think of it, don't they already have this? I think it's called VISTA.
mark d.
computers, I don't like these things because they eat my RAM and
sys. resources.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/7505/
Programmer #A-5 of www.totallyparanoia.com
innovation by other companies, I understand them wanting to be
paid for their operating system.
What I don't like is the way Windows appears to be practically
RAMMED down our throats when we go to buy a new PC.
Not everybody wants to run Windows, let alone pay for it, yet
unless somesthing drastic has changed since the last time I
checked it out, most of the big PC makers FORCE you to
purchase it in the price of a new system.
That's not right. Many of us are happy to use Linux and there's
no way we oughta be forced to throw our dollars into Micro$oft's
coffers...
Charles R. Whealton
Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com
But we the consumers are the ones who created the monopoly, of course corporate users too. No one wants to spend the time and money to invest in learning a new OS even if is free.
As to how I can trust Ghost? Well I don't. But I did do an antiviral scan and monitored my internet firewall activities and detected no signs of malware. This is hard to do with Microsoft's embedded spyware since it's part of the operating system. Oh, ever wandered why your WINDOWS (Not Internet) Explorer always wants to log OUT to the World Wide Web? MS isn't saying.
Some of these MS Ghestapos even ridicule my use of an anonymous handle as not having any courage. Like I'd posted earlier, MS employees have a problem understanding this American thingie called PRIVACY.
They also stated that I can easily load another OS like Linux since I'm so unhappy with Windoze. Well, they still haven't responded as to whether or not I'd get a refund if I mail back those license stickers on the side of my PC cases, since they insist on making me not wanting to use the product they sold to me.
Above all else, all these Microsoft employee postings highlights one very obvious thing. They still don't get it. If their reputation is so BAD that people are willing to trust anonymous STRANGE hackers over them; if their reputation is so BAD that thousands of programmers will give up their free time to code free OpenOffice and Linux programs in spite; if their reputation is so BAD that everybody automatically KNOW that more private info is sent out to MS than MS claims; than one would think MS would have gotten a clue that their way of doing business is a train wreck waiting to happen. But I guess even with a business case like CA staring them in the face, the MS MeatheadS still just don't get it.
Can't wait till Linux' graphical interface matures a bit more. Already using Linux for FULL Internet and Email functions, and OpenOffice had fully replaced MS Office. Just waiting for the games to switch over so I can totally remove Windoze from the dualboots.
As to how I can trust Ghost? Well I don't. But I did do an antiviral scan and monitored my internet firewall activities and detected no signs of malware. This is hard to do with Microsoft's embedded spyware since it's part of the operating system. Oh, ever wandered why your WINDOWS (Not Internet) Explorer always wants to log OUT to the World Wide Web? MS isn't saying.
Some of these MS Ghestapos even ridicule my use of an anonymous handle as not having any courage. Like I'd posted earlier, MS employees have a problem understanding this American thingie called PRIVACY.
They also stated that I can easily load another OS like Linux since I'm so unhappy with Windoze. Well, they still haven't responded as to whether or not I'd get a refund if I mail back those license stickers on the side of my PC cases, since they insist on making me not wanting to use the product they sold to me.
Above all else, all these Microsoft employee postings highlights one very obvious thing. They still don't get it. If their reputation is so BAD that people are willing to trust anonymous STRANGE hackers over them; if their reputation is so BAD that thousands of programmers will give up their free time to code free OpenOffice and Linux programs in spite; if their reputation is so BAD that everybody automatically KNOW that more private info is sent out to MS than MS claims; than one would think MS would have gotten a clue that their way of doing business is a train wreck waiting to happen. But I guess even with a business case like CA staring them in the face, the MS MeatheadS still just don't get it.
Can't wait till Linux' graphical interface matures a bit more. Already using Linux for FULL Internet and Email functions, and OpenOffice had fully replaced MS Office. Just waiting for the games to switch over so I can totally remove Windoze from the dualboots.
MS Still likes to think that they're the top dog, and that they can win anything, but I still say that once more games come to Linux, damn near everyone will begin switching, at least to a dual boot, if nothing else, so that they can have their linux too. As a home OS, linux is becoming better and better, and considering the performance increase almost everything experiances on a Linux PC, it's not surprising that epople ar beginning to like it.
Not to mention that in many cases, programming in linux is MUCH more streightforward than programming in windows.
All in all, I'm waiting for a nice easily customizable version of linux comes out with a batch of good games. Once the games, and messaging programs, and browsers (oh wait, Firefox already has a linux version :O) and all the other cool software everyone is forced to use on Windows gets ported Windows will basically die out like the sick bird it is.
Malware typically uses the same ports already open on your firewall for legit traffic. And it's often smart enough to send at random times. If you're not a specialist, how do you know you're not missing malicious packets.
As for the virus scan, you can hope that your antivirus vendor has already scanned this program, figured out whether it's malicious, cured it if so, and updated the signature file on your computer. Then again, maybe not. You can't be sure.
Finally, do you realize how simple it would be to create a malicious executable with this name? Will every version be written by this anonymous, yet supposedly trustworthy robin-hood named "ghost"? Do 99.9% of the users out there have any way of ensuring this isn't malware? No way.
There is simply no way to trust this or use this safely. Anyone who suggests otherwise is uninformed.
I'll repeat, anyone who downloads this .exe is taking a major risk.
But that's your choice. If you're conspiracy minded to the point where you'd rather trust some anonymous hacker than Microsoft, no amount of logic in this post or any other post is likely to sway you. Good luck to you.
For the more sensible and rational folks out there who legitimately paid for their software like most good people do, your trust is better placed in Microsoft.
This thread has been been inundated with replies from idiots who claim that since they personally didn't experience a problem installing WGA, then only liars and thieves could possibly have experienced a problem. Such posters display an astounding level of arrogance and stupidity.
I have a legitimate copy of Windows XP (purchased directly from Microsoft, so don't tell me it isn't legitimate) and WGA broke my copy of XP and refused to validate it. It did not provide me with any way to correct the problem. WGA simply advised me to buy a new copy.
Is there probably some way to track down phone numbers and contact information to dispute Microsoft's screw-up? I am sure that there is, but Microsoft didn't provide them to me when they broke my OS. Why should Microsoft be able to break my machine with their defective WGA validation software and then make me jump through hoops and/or spend more money to fix it? They shouldn't be able to do that. It is their screw-up, but they have shifted all of the time and expense to fix their screw-up onto my shoulders.
Also one thing MS doesn't consider... suppose your PC breaks and you replace the system board with a different board. You are not bound by any laws in the agreement with MS or the PC maker to use the exact same part numbers when fixing your PC, but WGA will invalidate your operating system. I'm all for not pirating software, but this time... yea for the hackers.
Personally, I think it would easier if Microsoft would simplify things. First, don't have 10 different versions of Vista, just one or two not 8 or 10. Secondly, don't ever place beta software as a critical update. It's just not done period. Lastly, lower the price. If it didn't cost an arm an a leg, maybe more people would actually buy the software and become genuine customers.
In the end, there's still choice and the best way to get their attention is to exercise that choice and choose a different OS. Show Microsoft how much you don't really need them by using Linux, Unix or even buy a mac and really **** them off. If enough of us do it, that would really get their attention.
This is a MS problem, no one should have to try to reinstall to fix a problem that never should have happened. Reinstalling will likely not work anyway.
MS is wrong for planting spyware on its honest and dishonest customers. Unless they fix it quick, they will find out how wrong they are when they get slapped with the largest class action suit in history. Maybe then they will learn to be honest corporate citizens.
If they spent 10% of the effort they make on treating everyone like criminals, into producing clean, stable, secure, unbloated software, they might not be so hated and they would have a better future then the one they have condemned themselves to.
Vista is already a failure as is office 2007. People are moving away from all windows OS(which is good for everyone). In short, the average joe is finally figuring out what was evident in 1993. MS is a greedy incompetant company and tying yourself to them only causes problems and money to drain out of your wallet/bottom line.
I am just pointing out that, YES, "WGA" HAS caused problems for "legitimate users" (to claim otherwise is just, flat-out, IGNORANCE, or else, it is INTENTIONAL LYING). But, even if that werent true, the entire "WGA" fiasco does bring even bigger issues into the light...
For example...
When "WGA" was rolled-out, ...as a so-called "security-update", the official Microsoft description WAS DECEPTIVE, both about its true purpose, AND its actual functional characteristics (no mention of its constantly "calling home", etc.).
Furthermore, in our case for a specific example, simply "...reloading" the affected machine is a real headache, because it WILL mean losing particular versions of software that we need to use (thanks to "loader-stub" installations and "product-activation" for discontinued, and/or "older", products).
So this, ...only crooks, and Microsoft-bashers, have a problem with "WGA", ...IS a complete LOAD OF RUBBISH.
What Microsoft DID, and IS DOING, to consumers ...IS FLAT-OUT WRONG. And, it WILL cost them in the end.
Kinda, makes you wonder about all the high-profile people leaving Microsoft, now, right before the big "Vista" roll-out, ...doesnt it..?
Legitimate users are angry because WGA has the chance to mess things up for them and they don't feel they should suffer for the actions of the dishonest.
Uneducated users are angry because they didn't realize there was any illegalities involved in their $25 convenience store model PC, and it no longer can get updates because of WGA.
Privacy activists are angry because Microsoft is peeking in their Windows(TM), and even though it only seeks information to do with legitimacy and where it comes from they're the kind of people who'd get mad if you looked at what colour their
socks were without their permission and how dare you even imply that they might do something wrong and if they do it's their own business!
Mac users are angry because.. hey.. Mac users always get angry when Microsoft is mentioned, no matter what the reason is (though I think it's because they're a little jealous over not having a second mouse button).
Linux users are angry because while they have a great OS and can do the things they need to in it (requiring knowledge that would baffle casual computer users), they still are inexplicably seldom invited to parties on a Friday night (aside from the occasional LAN party perhaps).
Microsoft is angry because they face so many issues trying to deal with the fact that the honest are in the minority and there's no nice
way to try to make some people do the right thing without screwing everyone over.
Windows Genuine Advantage also, apparently, makes HULK ANGRY! It may well turn into a
'Gates vs Hulk' fest and we're all dying to know how *that* turns out.
Finally, *I* am angry..
- because life seems both too short and yet too long
- because we live in a world where we all have to deal with the consequences not only of our own actions, but of the actions of those around us
- because I *can* believe it's not butter
- because there's way too much reality TV, and not enough reality in the world
- and.. because no matter how hard I try to think from other peoples perspectives.. I still can't take something like this really seriously for more than a few moments
Now.. let's all get drunk and play ping pong!
(Shameless Simpsons quote.. I know)
MS is obligated morally to provide SECURITY updates to everyone, even to pirated systems. Why? Because it is the incompetance of MS that causes a large portion of the security issues and any unpatched windows box is a danger to everyone.
People are also angry because, in typical MS fashion, WGA is extremely flawed.
The second mouse button comment shows how truely clueless you are. As does the linux usability comment. It is easier for newbies to use then windows. If you struggle with it, you might want to consider going back to kindergarten,
The honest are not in the minority. To claim this means you believe that the majority of windows boxes out there are pirated. This shows how stupid you are.
This is the wrong way to approach a legitimate problem. Does a store frisk everyone leaving? SO why should MS get away with it.
You might try to sober up a bit and learn to think.
Now I am talking about home users here. If they did something like this for business users, the licenses should be tied to the business, not the employee. Businesses could hand out X number of cards and always know they were in compliance.
MS would have to pay others to license their IP, and you can bet, those people (esp. the SmartCard folks) are intelligent enough not to cheaply license or sell their technologies. (unlike the guy who sold his DOS to Bill Gates for pocket change, rather than licensing it to him)
This also goes for you if you're here to proclaim that Microsoft sucks.
As for Mac/Linux/Unix users and proponents of any other operating system, well, you guys keep using that and liking it, because if things get much worse some of us Windows users may well look into the alternatives. And for those of us who don't want to change O.S.'s just yet, please respect the fact that some of us may not want to just yet.
If you are going to post either a scathing rebuke of Microsoft, your opinion on piracy, whatever, then please EDUCATE yourself on the issue first.
Here's the biggest problem with what I'm seeing posted here:
That somehow problems with WGA = pirates/piracy.
There ARE cases of legitimate users who have valid copies of windows who ARE NOT pirates. I speak from personal experience here.
Microsoft's own Windows Update support personel kept in contact with me for about 2 months, and used numerous methods to validate my installation.
All of which was for my request to diagnose a problem that turned out to be a faulty installer for a program that uses the WGA validation tools to "Get Clearance" to finish installing itself.
Still not satisfied? Then go straight to the horse's mouth. The WGA support forums are located here:
http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=442&SiteID=25
Everyone should read the entries here at length before shooting their mouth off. It's all here. Dillweeds that are mis-using volume license keys, outright pirates, oh yeah, and PEOPLE WITH VALID COPIES OF WINDOWS that are having problems with WGA. Microsoft employees and MVP's offer help and some fixes here as well.
I also have a problem with those that claim that there are absolutely no problems with WGA related software. That there is no way that a "Bug" in the software could cause Windows to be invalidated. Again I refer you to the support forums, as there are several cases of this here as well.
And now for the Microsoft detractors:
Piracy *is* a real problem. Microsoft *does* have the right to combat that problem. I agree that perhaps their tactics have been heavy handed, or even directed toward the wrong parties, but that is no excuse to use hacks/cracks to circumvent this check. Using hacks/cracks to get around WGA just makes Microsoft's case for them.
If anything, the sane middle ground would be for Microsoft to go after the source of piracy, not to punish the end users, some of which are innocent or were duped.
End users of all backgrounds need to stop misuing/abusing copying rights and licenses. And Microsoft needs to make the whole process clearer to *average* and *buisness* end user alike. Especially on the support side of things, as well as a full diclosure of what information that is "Phoned Home".
To everyone here I say this: There is a multitude of real *FACTS* surrounding this issue, both in established media outlets, and more personal affairs, like blogs, chats, user groups etc. Take advantage of these to inform yourself. Speculation and inuendo only make things worse for everyone.
Even I have to say in Microsoft's defense, that everyone associated with Windows Update support was friendly, and interested in helping me, even though they could not solve my particular problem.
On the other side of the coin, however, Microsoft's not handling this very well. Unclear ELUA's, Undisclosed "Phoning Home", inconsistant, or non-existant support, pushing WGA as "Critical" when it is obvious now that it was concieved to benifit and protect their own interests. All of these things combined erode customer trust, and induce fear.
In the end, I found the solution to my problem, not from Microsoft *recommended* sources or services, but on my own, by Googling up my probem and going to their forums.
Which brings me to my next point. Microsoft *has* to do a better job of streamling the options that people need when they do have problems. If Microsoft executives are going to run around saying things like:
- Quote: Cori Hartje, director Microsoft?s Genuine Software Initiative,
?The best way to protect consumers is, first, to educate them about the issue, then to equip them to spot counterfeit software, and finally, to help them understand what they should do about it,?
- ( posted at http://bink.nu/Article6869.bink )
Then it is reasonable for users to expect just that. Many here have said that they were given no information on where to turn with problems, and I myself, recieved at least some support, after hunting it down on my own.
Help for WGA issues is available, but you almost always have to find it on your own. Consistency is needed in this area. Let's have some guidence here, MS.
As far as information being sent to MS, well I'll leave that one up to the very capable hands of the anti-spyware community to find out.
And finally to C-Net/News.com I would ask that you compile some numbers. Call Microsoft, industry analysts, and Public interest groups on their facts and statistics regarding WGA.
- Just how many pirates have been caught to date?
- How many "false positives" are on record?
- How has Microsoft addressed known issues with the tools?
If the numbers/facts don't jibe, then someone's not telling the whole truth.
These are obvious questions guys.
In fact, if anyone at C-Net/News.com would like to contact me via my filed E-Mail address, then you are welcome to do so, and I will be glad to tell you my story.
Perhaps it's time for people to tell what kind of experiences that they have actually had with this program, instead of just debating it.
Let's all keep our ears to the ground, and call Microsoft on It's spotty implimentation of this program, while not succumbing to panic.
What are some possible consequences?
It started out as a daily report, and, supposedly due to user concerns, was changed to a bi-weekly report. (Note that a 14X reduction in data also just happens to significantly reduce the cost of data storage and processing requirements, without substantially reducing the value of the acquired data)
The questions become exactly what data are acquired, reported, and why? To what subsequent use COULD Microsoft, or a third party, put these data, even if the data were stolen, or simply compromised through loss or security lapse.
(note: there have been some recent major data-security events where millions of people's un-encrypted credit card information, social security info, etc. have been either lost or stolen reportedly due to the neglect of an organization's employee. Such events will continue to occur and like any company, Microsoft is not immune to this exposure.)
The WGAP report includes the user's IP address as well. This contact could potentially allow Microsoft (and possibly others) to trace where and when you use your computer, even though you did not intentionally contact Microsoft.
The WGA Validation checks if your Windows is genuine, but, according to WGAP's license agreement, the information reported back to Microsoft also includes:
your WinXP product key,
OSversion,
manufacturer of the PC,
PC bios information,
and your local settings and language.
That is a lot of information. Does Microsoft need all those data for the WGAP verification process? I would say, no.
However, those data DO have marketing value. The report includes detailed info about the system and the user for which Microsoft has no technical need to know.
Some people might be concerned that, properly data-mined, those data could provide an ability to provide racial/ethnic/country-of-origin profiling. For example, the "settings" information can include the default language in use on the computer.
Those data, especailly when joined and data-mined with other Microsoft customer databases, could tell Microsoft who owns computers, what computer they own, how often they use them, what hardware and applications they can afford to put in them, and what they put in them.
That could potentially provide clues as to what the computer is used for as well. Is it being used for scientific work, for gaming, as a word processor, as a graphics studio? Is it running at a university, a military base, a corporate headquarters, or a government institution? Does the user travel a lot? Etc.
The Microsoft rep that confirmed the "dial home" feature also said,
"Microsoft acknowledged that it has not been forthcoming enough about the antipiracy tool's behavior, but countered that its tool is not spyware, since it is not installed without a user's consent and has no malicious purpose."
Saying it isn't spyware simply because the user gave his consent to install it is a misleading statement. The user is given the "choice" of either participate to get software updates, or don't participate and be barred from receiving updates from Microsoft. Some choice...especially for businesses, government installations, and professionals. (also, see my post at
http://news.com.com/5208-1029-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=18274&messageID=158827&start=-40
regarding the form of 'consent')
In addition, whether it has a "malicious" purpose or not doesn't define spyware. Spyware simply means it takes info found on the system and communicates it to another party...it has nothing to do with "intent". These data could simply be used and sold to others for marketing, and that's arguably not malicious, yet it could be construed as spyware.
Days ago, AT&T announced that AT&T owns the customer data, and will use and share it as AT&T sees fit.
Just within the past few months, AT&T had strongly and repeatedly insisted how much it valued the privacy of its customers and that it would protect their data with the strongest possible means.
AT&T changed its policy...almost literally overnight, having apparently misled its customers right on up to the time of the annoncement.
There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from the doing the same. No matter how strongly Microsoft claims customer data are protected today... tomorrow could be completely different.
AT&T customers reportedly will be immediately terminated if they do not agree to the change.
"But, these companies have a choice.", you say. Not if they can't afford to lose their telecommunications for awhile.
Just think of the disruption such abrupt termination would cause to businesses and government agencies.
Planning and implementing a replacement corporate telecommunications system can take months.
If more of you have solid info, then please post it so that we *All* may learn more.
The issue at stake here is not one of Microsoft's right to their anti-piracy efforts - certainly they have the right to protect their IP - rather one of the market's right to make choices as a result of those efforts. I made the choice more than 5 years ago to begin using Linux as my OS of choice for everyday use because I didn't want to get caught in the proprietary and pseudo-monopolistic powers of the world's most powerful software company. That was my choice then as it remains today.
I'm no Microsoft hater. I still do a great deal of consulting work for my clients on their platforms, however I must say that as they continue to move toward what is perceived to be draconian measures the market, which today offers more and more choices, will indeed respond in a significant way.
It isn't just WGA. I have several small business customers that use Windows specifically because their primary database for their business is in MS Access. These are companies that have as much as $15 million in revenue but are small manufacturers so their office staff is not particularly large. They were appalled (each and every one of them) that their "server" which hosted their Access database could only accommodate 10 connections. Not because it was a technologThus far the primary response has been one of customer dissent and outsider ridicule. My own experience has been one of observation and reflection. Personally, I have several pc systems that run various OS platforms for specific reasons. I have a dual boot laptop that originally was purchased with WinXP but now primarily runs Linux. I use the Windows installation under VMware only in a support role for my valued Windows-based customers, and for a few very specific Windows-only applications. I also have test-beds running Win2000 and 2003 server. Otherwise I use a combination of Linux/Solaris for my productivity and everyday OS's.
The issue at stake here is not one of Microsoft's right to their anti-piracy efforts - certainly they have the right to protect their IP - rather one of the market's right to make choices as a result of those efforts. I made the choice more than 5 years ago to begin using Linux as my OS of choice for everyday use because I didn't want to get caught in the proprietary and pseudo-monopolistic powers of the world's most powerful software company. That was my choice then as it remains today.
I'm no Microsoft hater. I still do a great deal of consulting work for my clients on their platforms, however I must say that as they continue to move toward what is perceived to be draconian measures the market, which today offers more and more choices, will indeed respond in a significant way.
It isn't just WGA. I have several small business customers that use Windows specifically because their primary database for their business is in MS Access. These are companies that have as much as $15 million in revenue but are small manufacturers so their office staff is not particularly large. They were appalled (each and every one of them) that their "server" which hosted their Access database could only accommodate 10 connections. Not because it was a technology problem but because after 10 users Microsoft decided to break the functionality of XP Pro and force them to buy the 2000/2003 Small Biz Server product from them. Again, Microsoft is within their right to do so but it alienates customers to do such things.
And given a choice, all 8 of these customers of mine, have moved to a Linux-based server platform. In fact, 4 of them have moved even their desktops to Linux - primarily due to the constant problems with viruses and malware which required their machines to be re-imaged every 6 months or so.
WGA will only exacerbate the current climate of discontent and more will choose to utilize competing products including Unix/Linux and MacOS. Only when Microsoft sees an erosion of their market share will they change their strategy and tactics. y problem but because after 10 users Microsoft decided to break the functionality of XP Pro and force them to buy the 2000/2003 Small Biz Server product from them. Again, Microsoft is within their right to do so but it alienates customers to do such things.
And given a choice, all 8 of these customers of mine, have moved to a Linux-based server platform. In fact, 4 of them have moved even their desktops to Linux - primarily due to the constant problems with viruses and malware which required their machines to be re-imaged every 6 months or so.
WGA will only exacerbate the current climate of discontent and more will choose to utilize competing products including Unix/Linux and MacOS. Only when Microsoft sees an erosion of their market share will they change their strategy and tactics.
And only when they are forced to make their products, which have viable cheaper and even free substitutes available now, more price competitive (compare the relative prices of hardware over the past 10 years with Microsoft's OS and Office which now finally have real competition) will they be able to dramatically reduce piracy of their products. The more they continue to back their customers into a corner technologically, the more likely they are to lose them. The best answer for Microsoft to software piracy is re-evaluating their pricing power.
- If a hacker invades your computer its an invasion. And if MS does it?
- by Sonny Crockett 1984 June 24, 2006 5:24 PM PDT
- Consumers of the world, fight for your rights! No hidden stuff from MS!!!!
- Like this Reply to this comment
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