Comments on: Net neutrality may not resolve Comcast vs. BitTorrent
Comcast's throttling of the popular file-sharing protocol may actually be permitted under the Net neutrality laws being proposed.
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* Prioritization of packets must not be done by inspecting source or destination IP address, TCP application stream, etc.
In other words, TCP/IP!
directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/10/comcasts-world-without-network.html
Argument 1: In some cases you might need to violate this, specifically for security against DOS where you are not sure full blocking is appropriate, but intelligent throttling might be. This is a huge gray area, but a necessary safeguard.
Argument 2: Prioritization allows you to better manage your limited resources. Lets face it, all resources are limited. For example does email require realtime delivery? Do you want grandma who sent a 2 MB file in email to cause your VOIP phone call to glitch? Forcing no prioritization will simply cause them to be forced to raise costs as they add bandwidth and is somewhat anti free market.
Wouldn't it be better to have the option of using a low budget carrier that is known to prioritize? If you hate that your carrier does prioritize packets, change carriers. If its important enough to enough people, carriers will advertise that they don't prioritize.
* Prioritization of packets must not be done by inspecting source or destination IP address, TCP application stream, etc.
In other words, TCP/IP!
directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/10/comcasts-world-without-network.html
Argument 1: In some cases you might need to violate this, specifically for security against DOS where you are not sure full blocking is appropriate, but intelligent throttling might be. This is a huge gray area, but a necessary safeguard.
Argument 2: Prioritization allows you to better manage your limited resources. Lets face it, all resources are limited. For example does email require realtime delivery? Do you want grandma who sent a 2 MB file in email to cause your VOIP phone call to glitch? Forcing no prioritization will simply cause them to be forced to raise costs as they add bandwidth and is somewhat anti free market.
Wouldn't it be better to have the option of using a low budget carrier that is known to prioritize? If you hate that your carrier does prioritize packets, change carriers. If its important enough to enough people, carriers will advertise that they don't prioritize.
Doesn't matter if it is a live video feed over the internet or playing some internet based game like warcraft. Time and time again comcast is making me feel like I am paying for something that is acting like dialup when in fact it is an ALWAYS ON connection to the internet.
I consider this not to be 99% uptime availability.
It apppears to be more like 75% uptime availability. I will be switching soon to FIOS.
Doesn't matter if it is a live video feed over the internet or playing some internet based game like warcraft. Time and time again comcast is making me feel like I am paying for something that is acting like dialup when in fact it is an ALWAYS ON connection to the internet.
I consider this not to be 99% uptime availability.
It apppears to be more like 75% uptime availability. I will be switching soon to FIOS.
Either the government regulates it or it doesn't. Let the government regulate one little thing about it, and you are opening up a whole can of worms...
But the myopic liberals don't care - they want to make it a political issue now, rather than having a long term view of things. Hypocrites.
christian folk like me. Cause they hates America and want to hand
the contry over to mexhecan! Rush told me so.
Either the government regulates it or it doesn't. Let the government regulate one little thing about it, and you are opening up a whole can of worms...
But the myopic liberals don't care - they want to make it a political issue now, rather than having a long term view of things. Hypocrites.
christian folk like me. Cause they hates America and want to hand
the contry over to mexhecan! Rush told me so.
Furthermore, while these practices may impact a subsantial number of subscribers, most won't be impacted either way (or, more importantly, won't be AWARE OF BEING IMPACTED), so I doubt Comcast risks losing very many subscribers over this.
Also, while at this point it is being painted as a matter of convenience, it's the kind of capability and policy that could easily be turned to more nefarious purposes (much like electronic spying by the government - it's painted as being for the common good to prevent terrorism, but can be turned to oppressive political ends very easily).
Hurting Comcast by leaving? They, and we, are delighted to see the big-byte users take their traffic to another network. The remaining users see performance improvements, we tell our friends, Comcast gets good viral marketing, and everyone is happy.
Except the terabyte folks.
Should we provision a separate (at least logically separate ? think MPLS) network for big-byte users with pricing based on the cost of that network?
And yes, I do know that bytes are generally neither big nor small. They're all two nibbles. :->
The problem of course is ithat you can't use your dsl box to actually call another DSL box at residentail rates.
My understanding is that what has happened is that an arbitrary limit on analog bandwidth was mandated, and we have not been allowed to see digital networks be offered to homes. Businesses can hire a company to install a network like homeowners used to be able to do through the utility- but not now for digital lines of service!
Only lame video phones are taking advantage of the miracle of free v92 long distance calling. Cell phones can be used by dialup modems but I have no idea how mu9ch the best ones cost are how fast they can connect.
Cell phones though have DRASTICALLY REDUCED THE BANDWIDTH PROVIDED TO CALLERS. IT WAS NEVER ANYWHER ECLOST TO V92 and is now around 1200 BAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore, while these practices may impact a subsantial number of subscribers, most won't be impacted either way (or, more importantly, won't be AWARE OF BEING IMPACTED), so I doubt Comcast risks losing very many subscribers over this.
Also, while at this point it is being painted as a matter of convenience, it's the kind of capability and policy that could easily be turned to more nefarious purposes (much like electronic spying by the government - it's painted as being for the common good to prevent terrorism, but can be turned to oppressive political ends very easily).
Hurting Comcast by leaving? They, and we, are delighted to see the big-byte users take their traffic to another network. The remaining users see performance improvements, we tell our friends, Comcast gets good viral marketing, and everyone is happy.
Except the terabyte folks.
Should we provision a separate (at least logically separate ? think MPLS) network for big-byte users with pricing based on the cost of that network?
And yes, I do know that bytes are generally neither big nor small. They're all two nibbles. :->
The problem of course is ithat you can't use your dsl box to actually call another DSL box at residentail rates.
My understanding is that what has happened is that an arbitrary limit on analog bandwidth was mandated, and we have not been allowed to see digital networks be offered to homes. Businesses can hire a company to install a network like homeowners used to be able to do through the utility- but not now for digital lines of service!
Only lame video phones are taking advantage of the miracle of free v92 long distance calling. Cell phones can be used by dialup modems but I have no idea how mu9ch the best ones cost are how fast they can connect.
Cell phones though have DRASTICALLY REDUCED THE BANDWIDTH PROVIDED TO CALLERS. IT WAS NEVER ANYWHER ECLOST TO V92 and is now around 1200 BAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wether it be computer or web based. It the management of Data
streamed on private networks that commonly agree to allow this
data to flow free with respect to it's users.
So how the hell does anybody need to stray away for the basics
of what is needed. A frickn' child just hung herself while the
neighbors that killer her are sitting in there house and not in Jail
because of the vague language that deals with an issue like this!
WHY...Same frickn' reason as net neutrality. Nobody wants to
handle the main subject here which is the transfer and abuse of
data on the networks. How hard is this?
1. Laws that deal with the transfer of data
2. Laws that deal with the abuse of data
I personally believe its a "big lack of knowledge" on Congress's
part to just let the system be pulled from all angles to the point
where it's just easier to "not deal" with it than to "deal" with it.
How about Congress does what its good at, get the techies from
the hill to get together and create a "Special" panel; and DEAL
WITH THIS NOW.
Justin G
Tech01.net
wether it be computer or web based. It the management of Data
streamed on private networks that commonly agree to allow this
data to flow free with respect to it's users.
So how the hell does anybody need to stray away for the basics
of what is needed. A frickn' child just hung herself while the
neighbors that killer her are sitting in there house and not in Jail
because of the vague language that deals with an issue like this!
WHY...Same frickn' reason as net neutrality. Nobody wants to
handle the main subject here which is the transfer and abuse of
data on the networks. How hard is this?
1. Laws that deal with the transfer of data
2. Laws that deal with the abuse of data
I personally believe its a "big lack of knowledge" on Congress's
part to just let the system be pulled from all angles to the point
where it's just easier to "not deal" with it than to "deal" with it.
How about Congress does what its good at, get the techies from
the hill to get together and create a "Special" panel; and DEAL
WITH THIS NOW.
Justin G
Tech01.net
Maybe the law could be written to say that the providers need to provide a minimum speed at all times.
And if they advertise that, they need to provide it. Maybe this will also get them to bump up the speed, too.
Even on their own network, they can't guarantee anything. For example, you can't download from another Comcast user any faster than they can upload. Even if upload is equal to download, what if two clients connect to the same server?
It is fashionable to blame every delay and glitch on Comcast; but there are plenty of reasons that the internet doesn't work so well that can't be blamed on an evil ISP.
Maybe the law could be written to say that the providers need to provide a minimum speed at all times.
And if they advertise that, they need to provide it. Maybe this will also get them to bump up the speed, too.
Even on their own network, they can't guarantee anything. For example, you can't download from another Comcast user any faster than they can upload. Even if upload is equal to download, what if two clients connect to the same server?
It is fashionable to blame every delay and glitch on Comcast; but there are plenty of reasons that the internet doesn't work so well that can't be blamed on an evil ISP.
First, many could agree that the way to deal with customers over-use of the network to the extent of impacting other customers would be to throttle their total bandwidth, but not pay any attention to the source/destination, the protocol it's running under or the content of the traffic. That is, Comcast need not even be aware it's BitTorrent traffic, just that it's a lot of traffic in a given period of time that exceeds the customers' service plan.
Providers should thus write plans that explicitly set out how much traffic can be transferred and in what time periods - plans that are reasonable and flexible enough to work for everyone even if many users exploited them to the maximum. Such plans would be a bit more complex than current plans, but at least the would be both workable and honest. They should also notify the customer each time the customer's traffic is throttled in some way, and the reason why. The practice of selling "unlimited" service that is not actually unlimited should be forbidden, as should "hidden" throttling where the customer is not informed it is happening.
But another issue is dealing with network attacks (denial-of-service attacks, botnet traffic, spam/phishing, viruses/worms, break-in attempts, etc). An over-broad Network Neutrality bill could essentially outlaw networks' ability to fend off these menaces to the internet, which I assume they are continuously fighting to a degree far greater than most customers would ever suspect. And dealing with these certainly DOES require being specific about source/destination addresses, protocols, ports, content, etc.
I am not certain exactly how one would phrase a bill which allows the kind of necessary network management while forbidding discriminatory behavior, but that is a challenge even if the intentions are good.
One approach might be to require reporting to a clearinghouse any "attack" or "abuse" incident from a non-customer that warrants intervention (ie, a DOS or spam attack or break-in attempt); for abuse by customers to meet explicit guidelines in the customer agreement before intervention can take place and for the service provider to notify the customer of how and why their traffic was limited in each case; and to limit the nature of abuse that can legally be written into customer agreements. This latter part would be essentially what we are thinking of as "Network Neutrality legislation".
So it would be OK to carve out exceptions for network management, but they must be very specific to prevent discrimination unless the activity is actually abusive of other people or of the network (DOS/break-in attacks, cons, scams, bulk mail not in accordance with CAN-SPAM, etc.), rather than a side effect of the traffic volume needed for an otherwise possibly legitimate activity, such as file sharing, in which case the more general customer provisions regarding excessive bandwidth would come into play, and, again, the customer would have to be informed in advance of what those limits are, and kept informed each time specific interventions occur.
First, many could agree that the way to deal with customers over-use of the network to the extent of impacting other customers would be to throttle their total bandwidth, but not pay any attention to the source/destination, the protocol it's running under or the content of the traffic. That is, Comcast need not even be aware it's BitTorrent traffic, just that it's a lot of traffic in a given period of time that exceeds the customers' service plan.
Providers should thus write plans that explicitly set out how much traffic can be transferred and in what time periods - plans that are reasonable and flexible enough to work for everyone even if many users exploited them to the maximum. Such plans would be a bit more complex than current plans, but at least the would be both workable and honest. They should also notify the customer each time the customer's traffic is throttled in some way, and the reason why. The practice of selling "unlimited" service that is not actually unlimited should be forbidden, as should "hidden" throttling where the customer is not informed it is happening.
But another issue is dealing with network attacks (denial-of-service attacks, botnet traffic, spam/phishing, viruses/worms, break-in attempts, etc). An over-broad Network Neutrality bill could essentially outlaw networks' ability to fend off these menaces to the internet, which I assume they are continuously fighting to a degree far greater than most customers would ever suspect. And dealing with these certainly DOES require being specific about source/destination addresses, protocols, ports, content, etc.
I am not certain exactly how one would phrase a bill which allows the kind of necessary network management while forbidding discriminatory behavior, but that is a challenge even if the intentions are good.
One approach might be to require reporting to a clearinghouse any "attack" or "abuse" incident from a non-customer that warrants intervention (ie, a DOS or spam attack or break-in attempt); for abuse by customers to meet explicit guidelines in the customer agreement before intervention can take place and for the service provider to notify the customer of how and why their traffic was limited in each case; and to limit the nature of abuse that can legally be written into customer agreements. This latter part would be essentially what we are thinking of as "Network Neutrality legislation".
So it would be OK to carve out exceptions for network management, but they must be very specific to prevent discrimination unless the activity is actually abusive of other people or of the network (DOS/break-in attacks, cons, scams, bulk mail not in accordance with CAN-SPAM, etc.), rather than a side effect of the traffic volume needed for an otherwise possibly legitimate activity, such as file sharing, in which case the more general customer provisions regarding excessive bandwidth would come into play, and, again, the customer would have to be informed in advance of what those limits are, and kept informed each time specific interventions occur.
According to Comcast, reasonable network management is all it's doing. "Comcast does not, has not, and will not block any Web sites or online applications, including peer-to-peer services, and no one has demonstrated otherwise," spokeswoman Sena Fitzmaurice told CNET News.com.
}
http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2007/11/28
According to Comcast, reasonable network management is all it's doing. "Comcast does not, has not, and will not block any Web sites or online applications, including peer-to-peer services, and no one has demonstrated otherwise," spokeswoman Sena Fitzmaurice told CNET News.com.
}
http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2007/11/28
I think Cox is doing it, too, though, but by blocking ports. I've never been able to make port forwarding work on my local Cox.
I had Comcast back east. They sucked then. Too bad big operators have such a monopoly in most areas. That's the problem - monopoly. Deal with that and the problems go away. I had billing problems with the phone company before they were broken up, and they wouldn't do anything. Years later, After they were broken up and had competition, I had another billing problem - but This Time they were eager to solve billing problems. When companies can't lord it over you they become much more reasonable.
I think Cox is doing it, too, though, but by blocking ports. I've never been able to make port forwarding work on my local Cox.
I had Comcast back east. They sucked then. Too bad big operators have such a monopoly in most areas. That's the problem - monopoly. Deal with that and the problems go away. I had billing problems with the phone company before they were broken up, and they wouldn't do anything. Years later, After they were broken up and had competition, I had another billing problem - but This Time they were eager to solve billing problems. When companies can't lord it over you they become much more reasonable.
Actually, BitTorrent isn't even the most susceptible to this "delaying" tactic; usually the content still gets to the user. Of greater concern to me is other time-sensitive data, such as online gaming, VOIP, videoconferencing, etc.
I personally experience repeated connection drops when gaming on Comcast. Games are increasingly using the P2P model, where you're no longer connecting to some company's dedicated server, but rather hosting your own connection for peer systems. Without fail, after about 5 minutes of hosting such a game, Comcast's crack network analysis tools view me as some pirate file-swapper, and drop the connection. You can't simply delay packets and expect applications to function. And good luck to anyone trying to explain the problem to their "technical support".
Comcast: Find some other way to limit bandwidth use. I don't mind having a cap, but tell me clearly what it is, and then leave my damn connection alone!
So how does this prove your point that delay equals denial? The fact that BitTorrent content still gets to the user is proof that Comcast is telling the truth when they claim they are delaying rather than blocking BitTorrent.
Assuming Comcast is telling the truth that they only block when there is congestion, then they aren't hurting you at all. Even if they didn't block the connection, there wouldn't be enough bandwidth available to make connecting worthwhile. If you were running Comcast, what would you do when there was congestion; delay BitTorrent (which is going to take hours or days to complete) or drop packets at random (which can make VoIP or real-time video unusable)?
Comcast's crack network analysis tool is acting like a bouncer at a popular bar. A bouncer "blocks" people from going into a bar when it is full; then when some people leave the bar, the bouncer stops blocking some people and lets them in. If the bouncer didn't "delay" people by blocking them, the bar would be overcrowded and people would stop coming because of the slow service and lines for the bathroom.
Now maybe Comcast shouldn't use a bouncer, maybe they should just build a bigger bar. It's up to you to decide whether Comcast is worth using; but I don't think the mere fact that they are trying to control congestion in an intelligent manner disqualifies them.
By the way, Comcast's crack network analysis tool probably doesn't think you are a pirate when you host a game; it probably thinks you are running a server when you host a game. Your agreement with Comcast doesn't allow you to run a server, so I don't see why you should be complaining.
Cable TV is also on that network.
So is VOIP.
Ditto for VOD.
Guess which one of those needs real time service? Hint: not bit torrent. Guess what happens when a bunch of your neighbors are using VOIP or VOD, or using internet services that require real time service? Your available bandwidth drops.
This is by design and how cable networks operate. If you don't like it, don't use cable.
- Delay equals denial
- by guerojose November 30, 2007 12:57 PM PST
- "Delaying" packet delivery is the same as denial of service, period. It just shows how collectively ignorant Comcast is as an ISP, that they think it's fine if the data gets there 'eventually'. They obviously still view the entire internet world to be made up of people browsing websites; if your favorite porn site takes another half second to display a page, who cares, right?
- Like this Reply to this comment
-
-
- Did you read your own comment?
- by jimsum November 30, 2007 3:24 PM PST
- You say: "Actually, BitTorrent isn't even the most susceptible to this "delaying" tactic; usually the content still gets to the user."
- Like this
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- Do you understand how cable internet works?
- by The_Decider November 30, 2007 10:39 PM PST
- It is very much like a token ring network. You are only allowed to send or receive data when it is your turn to do so. You are sharing a connection with all your neighbors. Your precious packets are almost always delayed a bit. And no, a delay is not even close to DoS.
- Like this
-
Showing 1 of 2 pages (62 Comments)Actually, BitTorrent isn't even the most susceptible to this "delaying" tactic; usually the content still gets to the user. Of greater concern to me is other time-sensitive data, such as online gaming, VOIP, videoconferencing, etc.
I personally experience repeated connection drops when gaming on Comcast. Games are increasingly using the P2P model, where you're no longer connecting to some company's dedicated server, but rather hosting your own connection for peer systems. Without fail, after about 5 minutes of hosting such a game, Comcast's crack network analysis tools view me as some pirate file-swapper, and drop the connection. You can't simply delay packets and expect applications to function. And good luck to anyone trying to explain the problem to their "technical support".
Comcast: Find some other way to limit bandwidth use. I don't mind having a cap, but tell me clearly what it is, and then leave my damn connection alone!
So how does this prove your point that delay equals denial? The fact that BitTorrent content still gets to the user is proof that Comcast is telling the truth when they claim they are delaying rather than blocking BitTorrent.
Assuming Comcast is telling the truth that they only block when there is congestion, then they aren't hurting you at all. Even if they didn't block the connection, there wouldn't be enough bandwidth available to make connecting worthwhile. If you were running Comcast, what would you do when there was congestion; delay BitTorrent (which is going to take hours or days to complete) or drop packets at random (which can make VoIP or real-time video unusable)?
Comcast's crack network analysis tool is acting like a bouncer at a popular bar. A bouncer "blocks" people from going into a bar when it is full; then when some people leave the bar, the bouncer stops blocking some people and lets them in. If the bouncer didn't "delay" people by blocking them, the bar would be overcrowded and people would stop coming because of the slow service and lines for the bathroom.
Now maybe Comcast shouldn't use a bouncer, maybe they should just build a bigger bar. It's up to you to decide whether Comcast is worth using; but I don't think the mere fact that they are trying to control congestion in an intelligent manner disqualifies them.
By the way, Comcast's crack network analysis tool probably doesn't think you are a pirate when you host a game; it probably thinks you are running a server when you host a game. Your agreement with Comcast doesn't allow you to run a server, so I don't see why you should be complaining.
Cable TV is also on that network.
So is VOIP.
Ditto for VOD.
Guess which one of those needs real time service? Hint: not bit torrent. Guess what happens when a bunch of your neighbors are using VOIP or VOD, or using internet services that require real time service? Your available bandwidth drops.
This is by design and how cable networks operate. If you don't like it, don't use cable.