Comments on: Breaking through Apple's FairPlay

DVD Jon and partner Monique Farantzos work to break through the wall Apple has put up around iPod and iTunes.

[technewsjunkie]

They're circumventing legal protections

Can't do that.

[The_Nirvana]

It is perfectly within the bounds of DMCA

to reverse engineer and make any device compatible with DRM content. What you can't do however is, to strip the DRM off the digital content. It is the former that they are claiming they will be able to do. So, I think legally they are safe.

[Musica360.com]

Ahhh yeaaaaaaaaaa.....

Why do all these articles act like this is the thing that puts itunes/ipods in the grave.

1. It probably won't affect ipod sales at all. If anything it will probably strengthen them.

2. It might hurt itunes, but Apple doesn't make money on itunes and as Cnet reported... most the majority of ipod owners download very little from iTunes.

Hmmm...

1. They have sold 1.5 billion songs. If the iPod owners aren't
downloading this music...who is?

2. From Apple "You agree that you will not attempt to, or
encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify
any security technology or software that is part of the Service or
used to administer the Usage Rules."

Modify is a broad term.

[lkrupp]

Resposnse doesn't make any sense?

"most the majority of ipod owners download very little from
iTunes."

Then who bought the 1.5 BILLION songs? Zune owners? Talk about
a disconnect from reality. Sheeeshhh...

[rcrusoe]

Who's going to buy this technology?

Jon is the man when it comes to encryption, no doubt about it. However, IMO, this technology falls into a very gray area that will almost definitely result in Jon vs Apple in court.

How the court will rule will likely not be as important as how long it will take to resolve the issue.

What company would risk setting up a business model based on Jon's software when it is very likely that Apple could get a restraining order to halt its use, then spend as much time and money as necessary to win the case? Or, if it drags on for a long time, starve out anyone who licensed Jon's software.

Bottom line. I don't see this ever becoming a viable commercial product.

[The_Nirvana]

Real networks did this before...

to make music from their download site to play on the iPod. Apple was infuriated and after exploring legal options they have decide just to change DRM scheme in iTune and release an update. If you still have old iTune version (I don't remember which one) you can play songs downloaded from Real music download service. Below are some interesting links.

http://news.com.com/Apple+fights+RealNetworks+hacker+tactics/2100-1027_3-5490604.html

http://news.com.com/RealNetworks+breaks+Apple's+hold+on+iPod/2100-1027_3-5282063.html

[gggg sssss]

here is a clue

Any company thst does not count the USA as home. The EU is already not happy with Apple, China and the whole east does not care a fig.

[Ipod Apple]

very gray area

http://www.analogstereo.com/apple_ipod_commercial.htm

[jscott]

shaky legal ground ... ?

I'm no lawyer, but it seems kind of naive to think that anyone
can wrap Apple's proprietary FairPlay DRM around files without
needing to pay Apple royalties. This isn't just about the DMCA's
provisions that prevent tampering with copy protection. If Apple
continues to choose to not license FairPlay, that's its call and
other music stores can't legally use it. And unless my
understanding of the DMCA is wrong, it also has provisions to
prevent reverse-engineering copy-protection, so DoubleTwist
can't just create a FairPlay "clone".

As for tricking MP3 players into responding as iPods ... it sounds
like they're banking on making MP3 players pretending to be old
iPods (which Apple can't really abandon easily). That's pretty
clever. But, it too, could be a perilous activity. MP3 player
manufacturers would have to knowingly embed Apple ID info
(which I suspect is trademarked, copyrighted and/or patented).
Again, seems like an easy case for Apple to win ... and not
anything a reputable manufacturer would dare do.

Putting on my Devil's Advocate hat ... I don't see a ton of
downside for Apple if other music stores could sell songs for
playback on iPods. True, it diminishes iTunes' dominance, but it
would help sell more iPods.

Of course, if Apple were to license FairPlay so others' players
could decode it, Apple could stand to make a good bundle of
cash on licensing fees. And it would further cement Apple in the
digital entertainment industry with FairPlay as THE DRM
standard. But we all know MS would never license it, so that'll
never happen.

Still, this is an interesting plot twist. It'll be fun to watch what
happens.

[igmcdonald]

just MIDDLEware

If it?s just a middleman software translator is that really illegal. I mean you are still paying for music and paying for equipment.
I have never used an IPOD or Apple Music Store does anyone know if they say you cannot use on anything else?
I mean you can legally download the music and play on your computer right? And put ripped cds on ipods?

Is there really a difference?

[VI Joker]

Not really

I do not believe that they are wrapping FairPlay DRM around the files. It appears they will be providing other vendors with code to make their players able to download and play content that uses FairPlay. As far as the DMCA and reverse-engineering, what they are doing is covered under Sec. 1201 subsection f, so long as their program does not aid users in bypassing FairPlay they are within the letter of the law. Of course I am sure there is a lawyer who can find some way to say they are breaking the law. DoubleTwist's challenge is to convince other MP3 player manufacturers that they can do what they say and that they would have any liability if Apple descide to pursue legal action.

[DougDbug]

What if Apple comes out with FairPlay II ???

Apple controls the iTunes service and the software. All they have to do is start using a new encryption/DRM scheme. This is easy when you control the entire "chain". (It would impossible to update the CSS system used on DVDs.) Any iTunes downloaded after a given date will require you to update your software and possibly your iPod's firmware. (Of course, the DoubleTwist software will work with your old iTunes.)

Plus Apple will sue DoubleTwist... who knows if they will win... But, Apple has a bigger legal budget than DoubleTwist.

[kelvlam]

simple answer

backward compatibility

[VI Joker]

What if indeed!!

DoubleTwist will just repeat the process they started and Apple will counter and so and so on. In the end users will be the ones who are hurt by the constant upgrading, regardless of the MP3 Player and/or content provider they use.

Apple could sue DoubleTwist but the DMCA has a provision about reverse-engineering and interoperablity. Apple would be fighting an uphill battle seeing that this could benifit them.

[kyle172]

Duck for Flying Apple's

You think that Apple let alone is going to let anyone get away with this. Then someone trying to profit from it.

I wish you luck

[mwendy]

This development is not commendable

I don't think this anti-IPR development benefits consumers. Who's going to want to come to the table and develop the products we demand when IPR schemes can willy-nilly be defeated, all in the name of interoperability (which is a smokescreen anyway)? Answer - fewer and fewer people.

The question is balance and marketplace dynamic. If people aren't satisfied with iTunes and their offerings, go elsewhere. Rip all your CDs and purchase your music from someone else. But iTunes should be allowed to develop the product with the protections they see fit.

No one forced you to buy their product - and they ain't the only player in town.

[df561]

only a moron would license this technology

sending your customers in between the iTunes+iPod brand will most certainly result in them switching to Apple's productions.

What moron would want their device syncing to the iTunes store where Apple effectively promotes iPods time and time again?

[Bosambo]

You don't see the bigger picture

If this technology means companies like Creative or Sony could make players that will play peoples existing iTunes content, they could then begin to chip away at Apples massive share. As things stand currently, most people have an iPod and therefore would need to do a lot of converting and/or repurchasing of their music/videos to make a switch. The next time someones iPod dies or they get some cash and want a new player, they'll just buy the new iPod rather than change brands and then have to re-rip their songs. But, if they could buy a Creative Zen that would play their songs, sync with their software of choice, iTunes, AND has the added features that so far have not won companies like Creative, Iriver or Cowen much marketshare, they could be swayed.

[davecramer74]

haha

nice work. I rip my own cd's use strictly mp3's on the miniipod, so its a non issue for me. But people who use these online services, they just might have something here.

[imacpwr]

Why will i NEVER buy music with iTunes..?

Very simple, digital rights management technology.. As long as
iTunes (or anybody else for that matter) insists on controlling
what I do with the music I buy online I will NEVER purchase
music online. I feel that I bought the music for my own
"personal" use and if I want to load it on every device in my
home that's my right to do so. I'm not a pirate, I'm not sharing
the music with anyone, I just want to load in on my computer to
listen to it there or on my iPod to take the music on the go or
burn it to a cd so i can play it in my car. If the music industry
wants to take that right away from me then I'm more than happy
to keep my money..
and they wonder why music sales are down, it's their own fault.

[J.G.]

You CAN do all that

Every single thing you've described here can be done, very easily, using iTunes and/or an iPod with one's computer(s). The amusing thing is that you do not even know what you are missing.

[J.G.]

You CAN do all that

Every single thing you've described here can be done, very easily, using iTunes and/or an iPod with one's computer(s). The amusing thing is that you do not even know what you are missing.

[w.i]

Have fun in prison...

No way is this legal and no company, well at least a known and respectable company would never be stupid enough to think that
1)Apple will let this fiasco take place
2)The technology involved in deleting (i no it's not what DoubleTwist Venture say but it's basically what they are doing) the DRM will work on the long term (how can they predict Apple's moves? and knowing the bright army of computer engineers in Cupertino they will eventually find a way...)

This just reminds me of the FairUse4WMV affair...any news now lol? This company and "DVDJon" are just a bunch of glory hunters desperate for their 5minutes of fame. If you're so bright why can't you do something legal and productive?

To sum up, i no it's great news for us, but no way is it legal and efficient on the long term.

[skeptik]

to date, DVDJon has won

DVDJon has been kicking Hollywoods butt for years. I have no doubt he's up to whatever technological challenge they throw his way. And by the way, he's one person. If a whole army of techs from Hollywood can't devise a system he can't crack, what does that tell you about the strength of their efforts?
The legal issue is a bit harder, unless DVDJon happens to be as talented in law as he is in programming. But as some have pointed out, the whole world isn't the US and much of it has little to no appreciation for the wishes of Hollywood and their DRM wet dreams.
I for one applaud his efforts. Even if they fail, they are a step in the right direction and furthering the dialog. Anyone who remains opposed to open standards in content deliver just isn't thinking with a clear head. Companies have been getting away with it now, but as soon as another company has a product that is cooler than the iPod (yes, it will happen), there will be millions of pissed off consumers who are shocked and outraged that they have to re-purchase their music collections or forgo the object of their gearlust.

[Steve Bryan]

Prison?

What are you smoking? Prison? I'm certain Apple's lawyers are investigating their options but prison is not even remotely a possibility. Enabling other companies to sell audio content that is "copy disabled" and plays on the iPod cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered illegal. There might be a case for patent infringement if a FairPlay patent is successfully invoked. But there is no guarantee that the court will see it that way. If they do it would still be a civil rather than criminal case.

Don't forget that just because Apple's lawyers may decide to bring a suit that does not guarantee a favorable result. You do recall Apple vs Microsoft back in the early 90's?

An important factor to keep in mind is that these efforts are aimed at facilitating a consumer's ability to use media that has been purchased. It is the sort of thing that various EU countries have started to argue for with veiled threats of antitrust action against Apple. This service could possibly shield Apple from such legal threats whereas trying to shut it down could lead to very unfavorable legislation in France and other large markets.

[Stan Johnson]

Only added protection

Making iTunes think it is hooked up to an iPod? Creating a situation in which an iPod can use other music services?

Prison? I think not! haha

[Bosambo]

1.5 billion sold and counting...

They would instantly make all the old iPods and songs so far sold on iTunes obsolete...some would see that as a BAD idea

[Bosambo]

my bad

This was in reply to a suggestion that Apple create a Fairplay version 2 to stop this working.

[dirk goedseels]

not BAD at all...

after all, the tandem iPod+iTunes is a closed system: you can only
upload content to the iPod via iTunes.
This means that Apple can change their DRM at any given moment
in time: the change iTunes, and the next time you connect your
iPod to the computer, the firmware of the iPod gets transparently
updated as well, making this again a working combination. The
new iTunes will convert your music library in the background to the
new DRM, and you even won't have noticed.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Of course

Of course every Apple fanboy thinks it's a bad idea because it's iTunes' DRM but if it would be something to circumvent Microsoft DRM I bet that would be great.

[john55440]

Best Solution: Don't Use iTunes

The best solution to this situation is to refuse to buy iTunes songs, costing Apple potential revenue.

Buy CDs or use Limewire, depending on your ethics.:-)

[lkrupp]

Think hard about ethics...

The RIAA just filed something like 20,000 more lawsuits against
ethically challenged file "sharers".

[GGGlen]

No chance

I'm not hardly going to cause myself grief, just so you'll be happy
about how I shop.
Now as for the other stores (selling WMA based product), I agree.
WMA hurts my ears and I strongly suggest people avoid it.

[airdude]

I will keep limewire until I see .25 cents a song

I don't buy CDs. Why? Simple,I can not afford them! Is this so hard for the music Industry to understand? Americans are broke, I think this would explain the slump in music sells better than anything.I would very much like to see musicians get paid for what provide us but not the large companies as they have done nothing but anger Americans by taking legal actions against us our family members and relivtives and now they want us to buy music from them? Sony Corp.kicked me off of Napster in 2001 for downloading a song recorded off of the radio. I removed all Sony products from my household and have not purchased even a blank CD from them to this day. I will say the same thing to the music industry that I said back in 2001. Music is like bubblegum, it is worth 25 cents a song. How many times do they think I'm going to listen to it bfore I spit it out. I believe if it is a good song about 25 times and then its off to the arcives where it might get pulled out once or twice in a year. If we as Americans can't afford a $15 CD with 15 songs on it then what makes the Industry think we can pay $1 for one song? Get the price right,lower the price to 25 cents a song, then the Industry will sell so much music they will find it hard to meet the demand. I'll buy as much as I can afford,excepted for Sony lables. This is the way we as Americans need to handle the the Record Companies until they learn to behave! Limewire don't sell out, we will not give you $1 a song eather,WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.

[Jimmu410]

Look at history

It's a good thing that RCA records would only play on RCA record players, and vice versa, or RCA would never have been able to make any money!
Oh, wait a minute .......

[Jimmu410]

Look at history

It's a good thing that RCA records would only play on RCA record players, and vice versa, or RCA would never have been able to make any money!
Oh, wait a minute .......

[gary85739]

You'd think Apple would have learned from Sony...

"BetaMax is better than VHS"...

These companies that continue to make proprietary products are doomed to fail!

Make a product for everyone, it will sell like hotcakes!!!

[close5828]

Apple will eventually do it, but not at +70% marketshare

I agree w/ most of you..

Having owned "3" iPods (3rd Gen 10GB, 1GB Shuffle, 40GB Photo) and purchased almost 400+ songs from iTMS, I can say that Apple has really made an easy to use portable music solution. However, with each purchase, I know I'm locking myself more and more into the iPod. iPod is great, awesome, cool, etc., but if I got a Zune or Zen Vision W, I cannot play iTMS purchases on it, or AAC without conversion.

There are many other types of players (some better than iPod, and cheaper!) that people are starting to become more aware of and want to use with their AAC and iTMS purchases.

I sincerely applaud anyone or any organization that works to make things "open" so that the consumer has choice over what devices and services he/she wishes to patron. In other words, it should be (and has always been historically) the consumer that dictates the market trend, not the manufacturer.

Apple will eventually open the iPod or iTMS to other players and services, but not while their market share is above 70%. You can rest assured that if iPod/iTMS fell into the 40% range, you'll see WMA Protected files on iPods and iTMS purchases on Nomad, Zune, and others.

[close5828]

Apple will eventually do it, but not at +70% marketshare

I agree w/ most of you..

Having owned "3" iPods (3rd Gen 10GB, 1GB Shuffle, 40GB Photo) and purchased almost 400+ songs from iTMS, I can say that Apple has really made an easy to use portable music solution. However, with each purchase, I know I'm locking myself more and more into the iPod. iPod is great, awesome, cool, etc., but if I got a Zune or Zen Vision W, I cannot play iTMS purchases on it, or AAC without conversion.

There are many other types of players (some better than iPod, and cheaper!) that people are starting to become more aware of and want to use with their AAC and iTMS purchases.

I sincerely applaud anyone or any organization that works to make things "open" so that the consumer has choice over what devices and services he/she wishes to patron. In other words, it should be (and has always been historically) the consumer that dictates the market trend, not the manufacturer.

Apple will eventually open the iPod or iTMS to other players and services, but not while their market share is above 70%. You can rest assured that if iPod/iTMS fell into the 40% range, you'll see WMA Protected files on iPods and iTMS purchases on Nomad, Zune, and others.

[cohaver]

why it works

Fairplay use is not so much a break though as common sense.
As long as electronics and machine code are made in China & Asia
Cracking or tricking the code is easy as long as each reach the same
State in each player or electronic machine.
Electronics the part of hardware in all these units follow same rules to reach each state
All DRM?S do is stop this state from being reached.

[C. Alexander Brown]

Nixing Anti-Competition

It is ironic that Apple calls its protective system "Fairplay." This latest development shows that the possibilities of Digital Signal Processing -- DSP, just cannot be underestimated. Apple and for that matter Microsoft need to find another philosophy of marketing, one that has as a major component "voluntary" customer loyalty. (forgive the bit of illogic there, it is unavoidable). Now what will be the next chapter, freedom for computer printer consumables? An interesting sidebar to all of this is that some countries, including Canada and Great Britain have strong and effective laws that interdict anti-competition practices. It will be interesting to see the results if these are ever invoked to free up the music download marketplace.

[GGGlen]

Fostering Anti-Competetion

In case you haven't noticed, Apple is competing with every other
music store on the planet.
How do they compete? Simple, they use a method of DRM that suits
their needs, and one that every other company on the planet has to
compete against (if they wish to compete with Apple, that is).
What DVDJon does, is to make competition impossible. Keep this
up, and you'll see stores close, vendors pull out of the market, and
leave one company in complete control.
Once that happens, sit and watch as the prices skyrocket.

[ddhboy]

this may actually get me to buy a Zune

I'm like many others. I used the Itunes music store. Through the constant pro-ipod ads, I got an Ipod. Then I realized that after my Ipod broke, I didn't like them. But hey, what can I do. I'm stuck with a brand I don't want to use because I like the Itunes music store. If they can get this to work legally as well as keep it safe from Apple updating. I was hoping that the EU would call this as a monopoly, but that hope seems to be dwindling. Still I would love to be able to use other MP3 players and still use Itunes. I'll keep an eye out for this.