Comments on: MPAA vs. RealNetworks: Five reasons why Hollywood will win

In federal court, the tech company had a tough time proving it didn't circumvent copy protections or that a proposed DVD copying box won't lead to mass piracy.

[EcuadorHomesOnline]

Reason #6 - If Real Networks were allowed to do this, it would make it ok for someone to create a cracking code that would allow users free access to the RealDVD software. How would Real Networks like it if they only sold one copy of the product, and everyone else in the world got to use it for free?

[Vegadan_Man]

It's unfortunate that so many people are so pathetically ignorant. The MPAA exist to protect the rights of consumers. Plain and simple. If you disagree, you are a troll and probably love Linux.

[ferricoxide]

@vegadan_man:

Umm... I *REALLY* think you have something backwards in your thinking. The MPAA exists to protect the studios - not the consumers and not even the artists that make the content. I'm really not sure how you could make such a fundamental error.

[grossj144]

@ Vegadan_Man - On the home page of the MPAA - "The Voice and Advocate of the American Motion Picture, Home Video and Television Industries"

So how, pray tell, are they here to protect the consumer's rights? That is almost like saying that the UAW union exists to protect drivers. No, obviously, they are there to protect the rights of the auto workers. Same with the MPAA, they exist to protect the intellectual property (copy right/trade mark) of the ones who produce movies, TV shows, etc. They could care less about the rights of the common consumer of the products that their members put out.

Lastly, I do disagree but I am not a troll. And I like Linux but can't say that I love it. It's a computing tool, just like Mac OS X and Windows XP/Vista.

Cheers

[grossj144]

How have I displayed complete ignorance? I always like to know when I am successful at something so that I can continue to replicate that success.

If the MPAA was set up to protect me, then how is it accomplishing that mission? Give me examples, please. It seems to me, and I'd love to hear your take on this, that the MPAA is very similar to the artist guilds from centuries past. They seem more interested in protecting the source of their members' incomes than my right, as a consumer, to apply fair-use.

I don't view digital content in the same way that the studios do. If I am legally allowed to rip CDs I should be legally allowed to rip DVDs. If I'm caught distributing mp3s then I should be prosecuted for distributing stolen goods (the real world equivalent). Same with videos ripped from a DVD. I should be able to put a video on my computer, watch it on my DVD player, and have a back-up copy for when I go on vacation. I shouldn't have to buy several copies of one DVD at full price just because I have multiple devices.

Having said all of that, I do appreciate that several BlueRay movies have come with both a DVD and a digital copy of the movie. I think that people would be willing to purchase digital copies of DVDs for a reasonable price (say, $2). All they would have to do is register their DVD online, pay for the copy, and then download it. It isn't rocket science here. Then, if you lost your digital copy (computer crashed, multimedia player stolen, etc), you could send an email explanation and then receive an email link for you to either pay for another copy or receive another download link. Both the MPAA/RIAA and the consumers would win with a system like that. It would provide another revenue stream for the studios.

At any rate, please explain why you find my opinion to be wrong.

Cheers

[umbrae]

MPAA = Motion Picture Association of America

There is no consumer in the title and therefore they are not consumer focused. The MPAA is only concerned with protecting its members profit margin. Anyone that says otherwise is mistaken or a fool.

Everyone else knows who the true troll is...

[El_Segfaulto]

So much spilled blood due to the lack of a <sarcasm></sarcasm> tag

[unknown unknown]

"If Real Networks were allowed to do this, it would make it ok for someone to create a cracking code that would allow users free access to the RealDVD software."

Why bother, when you can have several other software packages that will do the same thing for free and produces a copy that is restriction free, unlike RealDVD.

"How would Real Networks like it if they only sold one copy of the product, and everyone else in the world got to use it for free?"

Except that is not what Real is enabling. Their software encrypts the copy and restricts it to 5 computers.


@Vegadan_Man I hope that was sarcasm.

[biffhenerson]

I agree. If everyone got the media for free, the media owners would no longer be in business. If the media owners were not in business, the consumer would ultimately suffer. No more big movies. Just little crappy free ones on YouTube. So, in a roundabout way, the MPAA is looking out for the consumer by keeping the Motion Picture industry alive.

[RobertAPierce]

Sad that innovation and fair use rights will once again get crushed under the MPAA boot.

[BtmnHatesRbn]

I may get in trouble for this but MPAA stand for Movie People Are ********.

[Sam Papelbon]

maybe if they started selling movies in a format that isn't scratched so easily... but wait, discs are cheap to make and the fact that they are easily destroyed means customers will have to rebuy them more often than a sturdier format.

[BtmnHatesRbn]

In 1984, Steve Jobs, while still at Apple, was looking at optical disc tech., and noticed the problems with LaserDisc of the time, being that the whole disc must be removed into the open and the slightest fingerprint or scratch, back then, could render the disc useless. He insisted that CDs use caddys, which is what all of the early Apple and Apple-licensed CD-ROM drives did use until around 92/93. In fact, Nintendo was going to use the caddy with the Sony-designed PlayStation add-on until they parted company. If the discs today had caddys like an MD or old CD-ROMs, this whole scratch business would be moot and people wouldn't be worried about scratching their discs.

Then there's the Beta ruling, that allows an owner of a copy of media provided to make as many copies as they want for fair use. I know many people who abused this system by renting a movie on VHS, then copying it, via a box sold cheaply only in airline magazines to stabilize the picture, and record it to Beta. But today, it's different, we're lied to. No, it's simple: the MPAA wants us to buy the movie again in a downloadable format to give more profits to the movie companies for content they already made money on.

Lastly, so what if Real loses? AnyDVD, DVD X Copy Platinum (which is still out there in cracked form all over the Internet), Mac the Ripper, Handbrake's old versions, VLC, MPEGstreamclip, etc. all allow a way to copy DVD data. Wouldn't all of those have to be stopped? But how? Like in DVD X Copy's case, the company doesn't exist anymore, and in AnyDVD's case, they reside nowhere, constantly movie from location to location. (All information presented has be discussed on various Leo Laporte podcast shows over the last four years.)

[Kainchild]

The reason why caddies aren't used IS because without caddies the cd can be easily scratched forcing the owner to have to make a copy of it then proceed to lose the next copy with same problem again arising. Plus from what I heard, since you can't make a back up of a back up, you have to end up having to buy a new copy.

[riodejaneiro2007]

What prevents users of the Kaleidescape system from copying DVDs illegally?

[gsigas]

I believe Kaleidescape managed to win its case because the copy protection is always maintained so the user never has access to an unprotected video stream at any time. This means that the central issue in Kaleidescape's case was probably not whether the consumer can make backup copies (fair use) but whether the copy protection was removed or broken (which is a violation of DMCA).

[C.Schroeder]

My understanding is the Kaleidescape player uses the same CSS chip to play back the movie that a DVD player uses. The server contains a bit-for-bit virtual copy of the original disc and is played back just like an ordinary DVD, so there is no copyright protection circumvention and every player is licensed just like a normal DVD player.

The cost of entry is also several orders higher (i.e. thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for a "starter" system). If you can afford a Kaleidescape, you're probably not a consumer that would "rent, rip, return" anyway.

[unknown unknown]

In addition to C.Schroeder's comment, the judge in the Kaleidescape case also threw out the DVD-CCA's claim that the CSS license required the disc to be in drive during play back.

[inachu1]

I copied my VHS and I should do the same with DVD.
Tell you want RIAA and MPAA! You invest in R&D for a DVD disk that will not break,bend or scratch then I will be a happy consumer with your products. Until then we demand that we be able to backup our legal retail purchases.

I do not want to see myself going to the store time after time for buying the exact same movie title time and time again. .

[FellowConspirator]

Reason #6: the MPAA will win because they are willing to pay for a judgement in their favor. They purchased the DMCA, they've bought the attention of DOJ, and court's no different.

I think the Real's response to ARCCOS misses the point, though. ARCCOS by definition is a mechanism for reagion code enforcement, which is not a copy protection feature. It's not even an access control feature per se, since it's perfectly valid to have an out-of-region player. ARCCOS is a market-segmentation imposition technology -- purely a technological implementation of a marketing / pricing plan.

RipGuard is not a general copy protection technology since it really only attempts to thwart a specific copying procedure (which they aren't using), and, even then, it doesn't properly permit legal copying (e.g., to pull clips for editorial purposes, etc.), so it's probably not a valid copy control anyway. Preventing legal uses of the content would violate the terms of the copyright (which, by law, permit lawful fair use of the content). Copyright's a ***-for-tat thing, you can't claim protection without acceding certain rights to the public...

[theboyr]

I understand the DMCA makes this illegal.. however, the DMCA is so far from consumer friendly it's killed a basic fair use principal in being able to back up your purchases.

Why can't the MPAA come up with a license code system much like M$ has for it's products and that your DVD can be played on unlimited devices, but can only be copied to one device? This is the reason iTunes and Amazon will succeed in their online stores for high volume media consumers. I'm allowed to copy my movies from iTunes onto 5 different computers for playback, as well as back them up on an infinite amount of sources in the event my hard drive or storage device breaks.

Now, if there's a fire I'd be screwed if it wasn't for my backup to my server at my office. However, I'd lose every single one of my DVDs and Video Games.. but all my iTunes purchases, my ripped DVDs, my MP3s and other music... would be saved.

[BtmnHatesRbn]

Amazon and iTunes will fail once download limits by broadband ISPs are enforced financially. Unless they go the Comcast approach of 250 GB, which most aren't (5 to 40 GB for $30 a month, unlimited for $100 a month), I don't see downloading gaining any momentum after that. Ironically, the movie companies own the broadband ISPs: Comcast is Sony, Time Warner is Time Warner, Cox is Viacom, Sprint, Verizon, etc. made "deals" with Universal, etc.

[ittesi259]

Broadband limits aren't happening anytime soon, pretty much everyone studying has backed out.....and why? Because their customers got pissed.

[Renegade Knight]

@ittesi259

Broadband data caps are alive and well. My ISP quietly implemented them. The "Penalty" is slower speeds. Not a shut down so it's less noticable but still there just the same and can get in the way of watching a movie. My main competitor to cable also has data caps.

[thelemurking]

Is the MPAA completely retarded to the mass number of applications that are out there for ripping DVDs to iPod, Zune 3gp for mobile phones and so on? Then there are applications like DVD Shrink, DVD Santa, and just about everything from Slysoft.

There's a whole set of tools out there and readily available for ripping DVDs.

Wasn't BETA and VHS supposed to kill the movie industry due to rampant piracy?

[Dr_Zinj]

Justice from a checkbook is a travesty.

The MPAA isn't concerned about what's right or wrong; just that they guarrantee a fortune to their backers.

[scioara]

The only thing that the Real product would change is the ability of "Joe Sixpack" to back up their DVDs. Anyone else, from "Janice Shiraz" up, already has all the necessary tools to do what they need with their media. I am half cheering for Real because I am completely behind them in principle. The other half is cheering for the other side as I am making a lot of "pocket change" setting up front end "rip stations" and back end "storage servers" for my friends. And their friends. And their friend's friends.

[TV James]

I assume the ripped copy is locked to the particular player it was ripped on, yeah? Then why not also occasionally require you to insert a random DVD back into the computer to prove you still have it in your possession? A slight pain in the rear (harder to loan a movie to a friend*, means you have to store them somewhere, etc.) , but make it clear up front - in order to use this system, you must maintain good working copies of this disc in your immediate and accessible possession. (*MPAA would probably like that.)

[shusseina2]

I think your suggestion is a great idea!

The movie studios, like any organisation, in trying to protect their current business/revenue model only end up hurting the consumer and stifling innovation.

[Renegade Knight]

That would defeat the purpose of putting them on the computer to begin with. A Video Jukebox where you have to alwasy go get a movie isnt' a Jukebox at all.

[i_am_still_wade]

The MPAA and RIAA do have a distortion of reality that people tend to believe. They say they are losing millions due to piracy but what they don't tell you (probably because they are myopic and use deprecated thinking) is that most people who pirate a movie would not have bought it to begin with. Therefore, in reality they are losing very few disc sales. The second reality in which they have failed to grasp with their outmoded thinking is that you cannot stop piracy. The pirates will always be one step ahead just like the drug lords. If you shut down the Pirate Bay, something else will spring up, most likely in a country that cares more about dirt than enforcing media giant demands. Or people will flock back to the usenet. Or something. They are fighting a losing battle.

What these dinosaurs need to do, but they won't because it makes too much sense, is to make it easier for people to use the content they paid for. Rewarding works a lot better than punishment. Continue to pursue the pirates, but stop having a heart attack on things like RealDVD. Stop treating everyone as guilty until proven innocent (that is the media's job). Embrace advancements and stop fighting them. Think about the customer. But these will never happen because it is different.

[davidwillisw]

i used to respect the US, that was before they let the movie and record industry call there own shots .i thought with a new president would come reformandthe ability to see honesty where copyright was involved.but as usual i was wrong!!he promptly had a V P installed that is so totally behind the riaa and movie industry that it's discusting to watch how they wine and dine him,and your DOJ,now run by the riaa? so very sad?not to mention the interference in the government of another country?you used to be such an awesome country!! what happened?

[wclanders]

I love all the imaginary figures that people come up with for lost revenue. Regardless if I could not rent, rip and return I still won't buy DVD's. The MPAA is fighting a war against about obsolete technology. The technology to copy DVD?s has been around for years and operates outside of our country and outside the realm of the DMCA. They need to understand that this generation is accustoming to choosing when, where and how they want to view content. I purchased product similar to this one for years ago that converts DVD?s to any format I want. I don?t have a huge collection of movies nor do I share anything that I rip. I simply convert a few DVD?s to digital format so I can watch them on my iphone while I commute to work every day.

[gsigas]

I agree. DVD's are a fading technology that will soon be replaced by pure digital distribution. Then the only issue will be what kind of license you want to buy for the content (pay per view, subscription or perpetual). Physical media, and also the concept of large personal media servers holding terabytes of almost never accessed data will all fade away, except for the enthusiasts, to be replaced by network stored content.

[ajbright]

The last case like this resulted in a judgment flawed by lack of common knowledge. The judge said that because users are able to backup their DVDs to video tape (clearly not possible without equipment violating the DCMA) that having software that can rip DVDs by cracking copy protection was not necessary for fair use provisions of the DCMA.

In other words she said that because users had other ways of violating the copy protection provisions of the DCMA, there was no need for a piece of software to do it to enable a user's fair use rights.

The fact is the DCMA is a contradictory piece of legislation. It pretends to protect consumer rights with fair use, when in fact exercising those fair use rights violates other portions of the DCMA. There is no way for a library, student, university, researcher or any other person with fair use rights to copy a portion of any format of a movie without circumventing copy protection. You can't do it with VHS tapes (hardware copy protection) you can't do it with DVD players (hardware copy protection) and you can't do it with computer software.

The cost of piracy is already built into the pricing model for movies, the same as it is for CDs and will be soon for books. Just as people who buy car insurance pay a premium because of those that don't, so do people who buy movies. If a DVD came with a facility for creating a very limited number of fair use backups, the MPAA would have a valid argument and the DCMA would remain a legal piece of legislation. As it stands now, neither is true.

[Sausagebiscuit]

If you had used the correct abbreviation, your post might have some sort of credibility. The proper one, DMCA, has been used in the article and in several posts. How hard is it to check before you post that you at least got that right?

Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

[cosuna]

#sausagebiscuit. Your check's on the mail, courtesy of the RIAA and the MPAA. Or were they the RichAA and the MFAA. People can careless of Acronyms and more on arguments.

Call it by its name "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" or by its Acronym DMCA and it's still really the RIAA/MPAA Act.

[ajbright]

Awesome, critique from the analy retentive. Oh dear, I made some typos, therefore nothing I say has any truth to it. The Digital Collaboration against fair use copying of Media Act. Ahh actually I think I got it right.

Sad how losers like yourself think that attacking members of the public who simply want fair consumer rights is a sound marketing strategy. Any sympathy I might have had for the movie industry has gone right out the window because of idiots like yourself.

As the guy above me said, I hope the checks in the mail because you certainly seem to be their willing *****.

[Sausagebiscuit]

I assume because that I point out a totally obvious mistake that makes you look like a high school dropout, I suddenly work for the *IAA. I too hope that a nice check is coming then.

If you want to try and appear to have an education, and if you want people to listen to you (as the two trolls have to me) you need to have a basic communication skills.

Yes, this is the internet and typos and other mistakes happen all the time, but most people can read past them or understand them so that it does not detract from the flow of the reading process. I did the same here until I realized 'DCMA' was used in the entire posting. This made me not want to read the entire post because the perceived intelligence of the poster dropped. This could have been the best comment posted and that one glaring error just makes it lose all worth because it shows that the poster does not have a clear understanding of the subject matter.

The point is that if you want people to take you seriously you have to come across as having a basic 12th grade education.

P.S. Feel free to pick apart my text above, I'm sure you will find something wrong to point out. =)

Have a great day!

[cosuna]

Agree with "I_am_still_wade". In the end MPAA and RIAA can fight endless battles and still be remembered as the "Robber Barons" of the 21th century. In the 17th and 18th century, pirates were British lords stealing gold and silver from Spanish boats, which had been stolen from Latin American countries. Much piracy stopped in the 19th century due to spanish loss of its colonies, and the rising of the British as the naval power.

Same happens here. Hollywood and the RIAA have for many years stolen movies and songs from their original creators, independent studios, and resell them for a premium. Why? Cause they have the distribution channels. Movie theaters, DVD releases, market control. They are the "media cartels".
Who has won? Lawyers (big studio and artists') and middlemen. With the Internet, digital medium distribution and the downturn, this has changed radically.

What will happen in the end?. Probably tons of "pirric victories" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory) Win the battle, loose the war. Just remember how Napster and MP3.com gave birth to $1 dollar iTunes.

My two cents (not given to the Hollywood biggies, of course)

[cohaver]

Piracy is one thing Fair use is another . Right to take and back up the media you buy is very important .
Most DVD's and CD's come on very poor Silicone disk. It easier to scratch a media disk than a store bought back up disk . All money that is lost don't count for the MPAA members record profits on their balance sheets reported on the New york Stock exchange. It very important for all of us to make donation to customer rights groups to fight this. It very important to vote out Politicians that don't protect the Customer rights . And vote out Judges that vote against customer rights.
MPAA is trying to make a media formats that they have 100 's control over and break up patents
that move us forward to a more advanced technology world. America is customer based country economy Now media companies want to limit that customer base and technology advancements. Control the Horizontal , vertical, color and content we view in our home. Sound like the Outer limits

[umbrae]

Really it does not matter. More "consumer-friendly" applications exists that is free. Even 8 year olds know how to effortlessly copy a DVD.

[Renegade Knight]

" it wouldn't protect Real's cracking of ARccOS and RipGuard. Circumvention of copy protections violates the DMCA."

Why do you need to crack a CD to copy it if you copy it with the copy protection intact? This is possible since DVD makers spit out DVD's by the thousands complete with intact copy protection.

[unknown unknown]

The MPAA and probably the studio's they represent are under the delusion that such copy protection is flawless therefore any successfully copying must be the result of willful circumvention. Chunks of 2418 bytes of junk interspersed at random locations on the disc is hardly a robust system, at least in my opinion.