Comments on: Why baseball benched Microsoft Silverlight

Major League Baseball was unhappy with performance of Microsoft and Silverlight and this year will stream video with Adobe Flash Player. CEO for league's tech unit offers insight.

[alenas]

Hmmm, Flash is on 99% of browsers - but not all version of Flash are equal. Looks like MLB is too optimistic about Flash...We will see...I would not be suprised if MLB will have to change CTO and go back to Silverlight in a year or two :)

[Perry_Clease]

It isn't that hard to install Silverlight, or least it wasn't for me. Not that I like it any better than Flash, but both are plug-ins and not something hard coded into a browser.

[JuggerNaut]

The problem with Silverlight is that it limits the potential viewing audience to Windows users and some Mac users. Flash is everyhwere, so MLB.com has it's priorities straight in that they want to reach the biggest potential viewing audience possible and Silverlight can't do that for them!

[GajaKannan]

Flash is installed on 99% of internet connected machines... But it is crap when comes to compatibility. Also, Adobe website says Flash 7 is installed in 99.1% machine, Flash 8 in 99.0% and Flash 9 in 98.6%. If I take the numbers at face value the players dont work side by side... Hard to say what is Adobe numbers...

I dont think "Admin" rights is an issue, because Flash player also suffers from same problem.

The biggest problem with Silverlight is desktop penetration and loosing MLB is going to slow silverlight penetration.

[SactoGuy018]

If you're using the current version of Flash, you can display pretty high quality videos with no problems. ESPN does it on their ESPN.com website with their 16:9 aspect videos culled from their 720p high definition feeds.

[samkass]

Gaja, the "Admin" rights is a problem with Silverlight since so few people have it. Flash is already on 99% of browsers so no one needs to install it (and thus don't need admin rights).

[Maccess]

The problem is the yet another plug-in issue. It's true that most people have Flash because of Youtube.com Needing to install another plug-in environment is becoming a very large hurdle for content providers. Also, consumers don't want to return to the situation in the late 1990s when we needed a dozen plug-ins to view video from our favorite sites, each of which needed at different plug-in. Consumers are saying, well we've already got flash installed, why shoul d we installand maintain another plug-in environment.

[technewsjunkie]

Yeah, you're much smarter than them. they're going to "change thier CTO and go back to Sliverlight".
Right.

[liozzi]

I'm running FF portable with a flash plugin. I don't need admin rights to install the browser or the plugin. It runs off a USB flash drive.

I agree with Maccess, "The problem is the yet another plug-in issue." I don't use QT for the same reason. One more plugin that's always asking for updates.

You can argue the stats all day, but Flash is on most machines.

[supoman]

Microsoft software unstable? Who would have thought????????? One day people will stop being bamboozled by M$ vaporware!!

[TinyIoda]

ignorance is bliss isnt it... lol

[EcuadorHomesOnline]

Actually - almost every single browser hang up that I've had in the last year has been caused by the flash player. It's horribly unstable. Silverlight video quality is better - the Olympic games were GREAT - but I haven't used it enough to know how stable the player is.

[littleM]

I tried to use Silverlight to watch the Olympics and never could get it to work, even after a dozen emails with their support. I use it for Netflix and it works well on a very high speed (80Mbps) Internet connection at work, but at home the quality is poor over my 2Mbps DSL line.

[Spartan_458]

Yeah, watching the Olympics and the NCAA tournament through Silverlight were great. I had no problems whatsoever, and the picture was about the best I've ever seen for a stream.

[Chapmaniac]

Why not just stream a Windows Media file? I've seen many web cam sites doing so - most notably, the Times Square cam in NYC.

[ewelch]

Oh I don't know. Could it be Microsoft's reputation for egregious DRM in WMV? Or maybe the quality stinks compared to Quicktime and h.264? (The latter can be used without Flash or Silverlight in browsers compatible with HTML 5.)

There are plenty of reasons to avoid Microsoft's Silverlight. (Being forced to develop with WIndows PCs, or using open source development tools is probably a big problem for some.) The fact that NBC is sticking to Silverlight is no compliment to the technology. They're joined at the hip to Microsoft. What do you expect?

Silverlight is bad. It's flat out the main reason they've dropped it. And they won't be going back. The days of job security being based on buying Microsoft are long over.

[zvonr]

Funny, I uninstalled silverlight yesterday from one of my laptops, it was using 4 GBs on the hard drive... (at least this is what vista was reporting to me), it was on top when I sorted my installed apps based on size...

That's odd. Silverlight shows 23.8MB for me.

[jeffgtr60]

Neflix not having problems with Silverlight? You should look at their forums, many, many problems. When I called Netflix support to complain about the poor quality and recommended they go to Flash the tech support guy said everyone there wished they could go to a Flash player, the reason they couldn't was the movie studios demanded the Microsoft drm. That is the only reason Netflix is using silverlight, whoever the author talked to at Netflix was just putting on a happy face saying they haven't had many problems, they've had tons of problems.

[GajaKannan]

Are you sure you were able to talk to someone in tech support that understands Flash and Silverlight?

I develop software both in silverlight and flash, both has advantages and disadvantages,
Silverlight gets bad publicity just because it is microsoft and penetration in user base,
Adobe bad when it comes to backward compatibility and action script is not a widely available skill set...

[Hep Cat]

Netflix' Sliverlight problems are legend. How could you assert there's no problem with their implementation? Mysterious stuttering, horrible quality over a 20MB connection, and authentication problems are the three big issues for me when using NetFlix. I'm not surprised MLB decided to stick with a proven, if low-fidelity solution.

[dhavleak]

Netflix didn't have any issues with Silverlight.

Somebody posted a misleading story on Slashdot.org about it. Slashdot is a site full of MS hostile people. Next thing everyone from slashdot that has a netflix account was going to the forums to complain. Sort of like a signature campaign.

They were essentially trying to get netflix to think that there was some huge problem with Silverlight, so that Netflix would move away from using it. Netflix however noticed the trend between the slashdot article and the spike in complaints (followed by the drop in complaints once the story fell of the main page), and realized that silverlight was working just fine.

[biffhenerson]

MLB demanding that people be able to install SilverLight without administrative permissions. LOL! It just shows how uninformed they are. It has nothing to do with SilverLight, it has everything to do with the way we manage our corporate computers. We install Flash. We install Silverlight. Its not up the user to install anything. Since Silverlight is new to the game, many companies have not yet included it in their standard install. A better question is why any company would want their employees watching baseball while at work. As far as experiencing interruptions in service and blaming it on SilverLight, I dont think so. The back end servers or the users connection perhaps, but certanly not SilverLight. SilverLight uses far better technology for delivering streaming media than any other out there. Its simple sixth grade mathmatics. MLB may have been pressured by its Customers who are anti-Microsoft or had some political pressure ($$$) to make the switch, but from a pure technical point of view, they have made a very poor choice for going forward. The problem is MLB. Not anything else.

[cb3431]

Well said.

Is Silverlight to blame for the constant buffering and freezing of the online offerings from NBC, ABC, CBS, and hulu. No, because it's Flash.

"Secondly you see with adobe a company committed to the customer experience in video with the Flash Player. We see a partner that continues to invest in their product." Seriously? Really? Is that why I'm prompted to install a new security update every time I open Adobe Reader?

It's not hard for something (Flash) to be considered great when there is nothing to compare it to. Microsoft has delivered a great alternative with Silverlight.

[Vegaman_Dan]

Glad you caught the reference to having MLB wanting it possible for employees to be able to download and install Flash on their work computers... at work. Strangely enough, I thought work computers were for doing work with, not watching baseball.

Work is work. Baseball is not work. Unless you're a sports reporter, then there is no reason to have this. The employer may not exactly appreciate the offer.

[daedbird]

I am glad, because the platforms supported by Silverlight 2 are limited. I am on a PPC Power Mac, one of the last off the line, but I couldn't watch March Madness bc it wasn't supported. Neither were Linux users, and people who used Chrome had to switch to IE, Firefox, or Safari.

I have used Flash on Hulu, CBS, and ABC, and never had any problems. In fact, it seems to be intuitive with my stream, sending lower-res video through when I have a lot going on in the background, high=def when all I am doing is watching.....

I find Microsoft's stance on its support to show its mindset - still scared of Google and open-source software, it will never support Linux and Chrome, but it feels Apple will always be a bit player, therefore they will support the Mac, but in limited porting.....As far as Firefox, no one would sign up with Silverlight if they didn't support it...

[kelmon]

Here's the thing: I'm pro-Mac and pretty much anti-Microsoft but Silverlight on the Mac is better than Flash. More than anything else I think this is a testament to how crappy the Adobe Flash Player is for the Mac platform - it's an absolute resource hog. On a Core 2 Duo 2.33Ghz MBP it is not unusual to see Adobe Flash consume around 100-120% processors whilst playing a Flash movie whereas Silverlight seems to only need 50-60%. I'd much rather use Adobe's products simply because I wouldn't trust Microsoft as far as I could throw Ballmer but Flash continues to be a dog on the Mac that needs shooting. Flash, on the Windows platform, however, is much better.

[hoopla]

Amen, mac-brother.

I was thinking similar things as I read the article. I've had a very good experience with Silverlight on the Mac, much to my surprise.

However, I would say that the March Madness player this year was spectacularly good. The video quality has been excellent (for live streaming).

I don't really trust Adobe as a company, so I'd love to see an open source alternative emerge. If IBM (+SUN?) and Intel are also people who I could see getting involved.

[csilv99]

kelmon, you said it perfectly. Yes, Silverlight has issues... but on the Mac (intel) platform, Silverlight simply performs better than Flash. I loved last year's high def content on MLB. I've watched a couple pre-season games this year and the quality is not as good, particularly when you increase the image to full screen. Sigh.

[BogusBasin]

Microsoft. Destroying the world one release at a time. Amen

[SixString16]

MLB will get more market penetration with flash than Silverlight. This includes people using macs and linux computers. Plus with this format, I think it makes the eventual move to the wireless world a little less complicated given the popularity of the iPhone, blackberry, and now with people starting to use netbooks too (note the youtube application for iPhone/iPod touch).

[rapier1]

Of course, there is no flash for the iPhone.

[kralimarko]

Is there Silverlight for iPhone??

So what's your argument then? flash player still runs on much more platforms than silverlight,

[Suboculis]

How will flash get more market penetration when Silverlight is going to be pushed to every computer via Windows Update?

[Synthmeister]

No Flash, but there is MLB.com At Bat 2009. Yes, I know a very different app, but getting great reviews.

I don't understand why they use MS or Adobe. Why not use something open like H.264? Wouldn't that cost a lot less and be available to anyone on any computer?

[CBattery]

People still watch baseball?

[ppgreat]

The best post, by far!

[Sam Papelbon]

yes

[tigerkitty2]

I cancelled my Netflix account because they went to sliverlite. (bad spelling intended)
The movies were terrible quality and skipped constantly. why pay for something i can't watch.
Microsoft, as usual, shipped a half baked product and sold it as a solution for which there was no problem for it to fix.

[rec9140]

Wouldn't matter, some businesses and agencies don't install flash or silverlight, and even more so, some of us BLOCK places like youtube, mlb, ncaa, cbs, etc. because some of us are not paying for people to watch stupid sports stuff via the company data network. Your getting paid to work, and you better be working.

So not going to matter, flash is not installed on the win side, nor can they download. And silverlight not happening, ever, period. So don't matter what rights they have, they can't get to the sites to use it. Oh, and usurping the blocks and controls, as well as watching the stuff is grounds for immediate on the spot termination. No 2nd chance. You get "perp walked" out the door. Better have that DL and keys handing in your pocket as you will not be allowed to remove any thing from your desk. Your personal effects from your desk will be removed, boxed and sent to you later. AFTER being reviewed for company materials.

[martin1212]

Glad I don't work in your company.

[ChurlishCanadian]

Wow, written like a true manager (in the worst possible sense) ... terrible grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and word usage from a writing standpoint, and utter contempt for the people who do his work for him from a human standpoint.

I recognize that companies need some control over how employees use their network resources, and I agree that people shouldn't get paid to watch TV/sports. But rec9140's arrogant, belligerent, patronizing attitude says everything you need to know about him.

I agree with Martin: I'm glad I don't work for rec's company ... and it has nothing to do with watching TV online.

[gertruded]

It is easy to predict that your company will fail. Only people that can not leave such a rotten personel policy stay. Before retirement I usually worked 50 to 60 hours per week, but would never work for you.

[philramsay]

This had nothing to do with the plug-ins. It's simply MLB and Adobe playing ball with one another, as MLB tried to auction off this years rights to Microsoft leading up to MAX 2008. Microsoft turned it down, Adobe paid $millions for the rights and so MLB are just upholding their part of the Adobe deal - denounce Silverlight. - the hilarious part is they would of gotten it for free had MLB not sharked them.

http://www.techshowwire.com/2008/11/17/adobe-max-2008-mlbcom-selects-the-adobe-flash-platform/

[Michichael]

This thread seems strangely familiar. I think we've had the "Silverlight is MS trying to play catchup" discussion before. I honestly don't see why I should include silverlight in our installs when I've already got flash deployed. Seems like more useless bloatware to me.

[SparkyMcSparky]

1. Recession - companies looking to cut cost. Cost of Adobe vs. Microsoft: Adobe WIN
2. Market penetration of player. Adobe WIN

That's the bottom line folks. Keep in mind that Microsoft is REALLY good at sending in a squad of sales reps telling your company why it is best to use their products and why their product is superior. The problem is that any coder that knows heads from tails can look at their code and see why MS = EPIC FAIL. Sharepoint (MOSS) = point proven. Its garbage and soooo expensive.

[ChurlishCanadian]

SharePoint and Silverlight are completely different technologies. I agree that SharePoint is expensive and apps for it are extremely difficult to develop and deploy, but Silverlight 2 has been a dream compared to Flash. Developing end-to-end in C# is fantasic compared to weird and flaky ActionScript. I'm looking forward to SL3, and am anxious to watch the competition when the SL player matures and gets a larger installed base. (Microsoft ought to bundle it with IE8, but Europe -- and wannbe Europeans in the U.S. -- would probably throw a litigious hissy fit.)

[B-Ri]

I am amazed at how quickly these things turn into anti-MS testimonials. I use Macs and Windows machines at work and at home. I have had very few issues with the Netflix Silverlight player on either platform. To me that says that it is not an issue with the plug-in but an issue with a local install. I am in IT so I do keep my systems running in good shape so maybe that's why I don't see the issues. Flash is ok but Adobe has issue with their software too. No software is perfect. I think the case here is that MLB just got the deal with Adobe and they (Adobe) wanted to take a shot at the up and coming MS version. Nobody wants competition, it makes them actually have to work harder.

[daedbird]

Silverlight is incompatible with PPC macs, as well as Linux, and it says so right on their website.

[t8]

I am not amazed at all. Generally speaking many technical people dislike Microsoft because they are always trying to destroy all innovation that is not theirs and replace things with their junk, by using their abusive monopoly.

I remember once, Ballmer said "We want the software market". How arrogant. Meanwhile while he was trying to destroy all non= Microsoft software the Internet grew exponentially and now they are only a 2 bit player in that market. Serves them right for being so arrogant.

[monkeyfun14]

@t8

How explain..

And apple isn't arrogant at all right?

[mjtomlin]

@monkeyfun14:

How does an anti-Microsoft comment equal a pro-Apple comment? Why even bring up Apple? Apple is extremely arrogant, but there's nothing wrong with that. Thinking your technology is superior to everyone else's is par for the course in this industry. At least Apple makes a real effort at pushing open standards.

But Microsoft on the other hand has a history of taking open technology and tweaking it just enough that it's no longer compatible with the original and tying it too its Windows platform; Two examples, Java & HTML. And also trying to steamroll over other proposed standards; OOXML -> ODF. This is what is commonly referred to as abusing your monopoly position.

[B-Ri]

@daedbird there is an article here: http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/3707/mac-os-x-install-silverlight-2-on-non-intel-systems-ie-powerpc-or-osx86-installs/ that shows how to get it to install on PPC. For Linux you'd need to look into Moonlight which is the open source version of Silverlight. I know it sucks to have to jump through hoops for something like this to work but that's the price you pay for not using the latest greatest from Apple/MS. I would love to see them be more interoperable but hey that's probably a pipe dream right?

[DustoMan]

Surprised no one here has brought up the Firefox/Flash bug that prevented that browser from playing video for months with nothing but silence from Adobe. I had a similar problem with getting Flash to work in IE on a fresh Vista install from Dell. "...a company committed to the customer experience..." my ass!

Bottom Line is that they are both plug-ins and they both need to be installed. They can live on the same browser just fine. Who cares what specific sites use? Just install each plug-in once and away you go.

[t8]

Adobe might be imperfect and even painful at times. But they are much better than Microsoft who are only interested in replacing all software innovation with their copies.

[drjoewebb]

I use Kubuntu and Ubuntu Linux. Last year I had to keep an XP computer around to listen to mlb.com games. Flash works just fine in Linux, and I'm thrilled they're back. Moonlight (the Novell product to run Silverlight streams) is still in beta, and I'd rather use something tested like Flash.