Comments on: Waging battle on foreign labor
Concerns that H-1B visas are being used to hire cheap workers who threaten U.S. jobs and wages renew opposition to the program.
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Personal experience has taught that some educational systems are culturally disposed to rote learning. These folks can read many pages and memorize what they're reading very efficiently. But this does not prepare them for real-world problem solving, design quagmires and adaptability. Make no mistake, the H1B program, and it's cousin, L1 visa program, are there for economic purposes and economic purposes ONLY.
Prior to the great h1b deluge that started in the mid-90's here, US software engineers prided themselves on the art of engineering and the cleverness of their ideas. Much of that has been derided in the name of lower labor costs and mediocre software.
If there is a shortage of qualified citizen candidates for technical jobs, it's due to the commodization of such jobs and the related wage pressure due to the cheaper h1b candidates.
But don't tell me that we're all lazy, fat and stoopid.
Personal experience has taught that some educational systems are culturally disposed to rote learning. These folks can read many pages and memorize what they're reading very efficiently. But this does not prepare them for real-world problem solving, design quagmires and adaptability. Make no mistake, the H1B program, and it's cousin, L1 visa program, are there for economic purposes and economic purposes ONLY.
Prior to the great h1b deluge that started in the mid-90's here, US software engineers prided themselves on the art of engineering and the cleverness of their ideas. Much of that has been derided in the name of lower labor costs and mediocre software.
If there is a shortage of qualified citizen candidates for technical jobs, it's due to the commodization of such jobs and the related wage pressure due to the cheaper h1b candidates.
But don't tell me that we're all lazy, fat and stoopid.
To Keep up with the latest developments in H-1B/L-1 visas, offshoring, and other labor issues, sign up for the free "Job Destruction Newsletter". To find out more, go to:
www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/JobDestructionNews.htm
For companies using H1s, it is in fact NOT about cheap labor. If it was about cheap labor, they would outsource to other countries.
You guys have missed that it is a global economy nowadays.
Isolationism is no longer possible.
To Keep up with the latest developments in H-1B/L-1 visas, offshoring, and other labor issues, sign up for the free "Job Destruction Newsletter". To find out more, go to:
www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/JobDestructionNews.htm
For companies using H1s, it is in fact NOT about cheap labor. If it was about cheap labor, they would outsource to other countries.
You guys have missed that it is a global economy nowadays.
Isolationism is no longer possible.
identity and do you know what happens to country without
identity?
Bringing in temporary labor that doesn't integrate or will then leave and go back to another country is a much different and less positive thing.
identity and do you know what happens to country without
identity?
Bringing in temporary labor that doesn't integrate or will then leave and go back to another country is a much different and less positive thing.
green cards are privilages so they should be respected and not
taken for granted nor argued by foreigners.
Here is the debt clock:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
And its definitely not going in a good direction.
Only the facts.
green cards are privilages so they should be respected and not
taken for granted nor argued by foreigners.
Here is the debt clock:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
And its definitely not going in a good direction.
Only the facts.
There is NO comparison to speaking about jobs and taking an entire country away. But let's remember, that time was one in which the Europeans had better tech, etc. It was basically a war fought over territory ... sometimes violently with guns, sometimes by "peacefully" forcing them out, etc. etc.
There is NO comparison to speaking about jobs and taking an entire country away. But let's remember, that time was one in which the Europeans had better tech, etc. It was basically a war fought over territory ... sometimes violently with guns, sometimes by "peacefully" forcing them out, etc. etc.
Within the last 40 years, the mestizo population has increased from almost 0% to close to 15% today. There are more Mexicans than there are Blacks in the USA now.
Within the last 40 years, the mestizo population has increased from almost 0% to close to 15% today. There are more Mexicans than there are Blacks in the USA now.
In fact you are wrong. The so-called "prevailing wage" laws have large loopholes. These loopholes were deliberatly written into the H-1B legislation and subsequent H-1B regulations There is a very detailed, specific, concrete, real-world example of how one company (Bank Of America) used the large loopholes in the H-1B Visa regulations to pay substandard wages to H-1B workers. The link to this information is http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm
In addition,
1) The Department of Labor "rubber stamps" Labor Condition Applications (LCA's) filed for H-1B workers. In fact, LCA's for Computer Programmer positions paying $8 an hour have been approved by the DOL. Does $8 an hour sound like the kind of wage that the alleged "best and brightest" should expect?
2)it is remarkably easy for an employer to simply change, or re-classify, the job title and job description of a particular position to reduce the wage level. A "Senior Design Engineer" position can be re-classified to "Design Engineer I" with a subsequent drop in wages of 50%.
Joe, I suspect that either you directly benefit from the reduced labor costs the H-1B Visa program provides, or that you work as an immigration lawyer who processes H-1B Visa applications (very lucrative practice for immigration attorneys).
Regards
Jerry
Because it actually is wrong. These guys, like Rob Sanchez of zazona.com are misleading.
Oh, and Gerard, I suspect that you are an anti-immigrant who directly benefits from the "programmers guild". Nobody smart would fall for such a blatant display of an anti-immigrant agenda.
In fact you are wrong. The so-called "prevailing wage" laws have large loopholes. These loopholes were deliberatly written into the H-1B legislation and subsequent H-1B regulations There is a very detailed, specific, concrete, real-world example of how one company (Bank Of America) used the large loopholes in the H-1B Visa regulations to pay substandard wages to H-1B workers. The link to this information is http://www.programmersguild.org/archives/howtounderpay.htm
In addition,
1) The Department of Labor "rubber stamps" Labor Condition Applications (LCA's) filed for H-1B workers. In fact, LCA's for Computer Programmer positions paying $8 an hour have been approved by the DOL. Does $8 an hour sound like the kind of wage that the alleged "best and brightest" should expect?
2)it is remarkably easy for an employer to simply change, or re-classify, the job title and job description of a particular position to reduce the wage level. A "Senior Design Engineer" position can be re-classified to "Design Engineer I" with a subsequent drop in wages of 50%.
Joe, I suspect that either you directly benefit from the reduced labor costs the H-1B Visa program provides, or that you work as an immigration lawyer who processes H-1B Visa applications (very lucrative practice for immigration attorneys).
Regards
Jerry
Because it actually is wrong. These guys, like Rob Sanchez of zazona.com are misleading.
Oh, and Gerard, I suspect that you are an anti-immigrant who directly benefits from the "programmers guild". Nobody smart would fall for such a blatant display of an anti-immigrant agenda.
Immigrants come here because they want better jobs, better living standards, salaries etc. Companies are driven by bigger profits and like we have seen lately - greed, bigger n better resort/vacation homes etc. Countries want to expand their scope of economic influence. And nationals are expressing their valid concerns here because of economics (well some may have a different agenda. I am not sure), but I think most will agree its because of lower wages etc.
Fact of the matter is that off-shoring/outsourcing has done and will do no good to the middle class of this country, the politicians would obviously say otherwise. It has and will continue to take jobs to cheaper countries, like it did with the manufacturing industry. It probably has fringe benefit - i.e., cheaper products n services. The simple theory of - You buy more for less. There will always be a debate on the QOS, but there's no doubting the theory. QOS is always relative and it usually does catch with time n competition.
So lets put this in context, essentially I am trying to present a theory where economics has a way of coming full circle and also finding its way. American corporations have always encouraged globalization, expansion. Take example of Coke/Pepsi. When it opens a shop in a foreign country, it closes a local beverage producer. Why? Well because it brings in better technology, may be a better product, more money backing it up. What does this lead to - loss of jobs in the local market and/or less wages. What does the company do with the money it makes. Well part of it is invested back in the local market for growing the business and major part of it is routed back in the American system/economy (talk about the old man who helped grow this country ? let?s not discount this factor). And this has been going for how many years, now. There's no part of this world where American corporations dont have a presence. And all this I speak from first hand experience.
Anyway, I guess if you have read it this far, you get what I am trying to say. My aim was to bring things in context. I am not trying to justify outsourcing in anyway. Being a immigrant, I am most thankful for the opportunity given to me here. And I know my neck is on the line here too. Hey! my job could be next.
But the fact is, thats how economics is run. Businesses n economics will always try n find a way to be more efficient. Ask anyone who runs a business(big or small). Why does the restaurant industry (most of which is run by Americans) hires cheap labor. Hell they will outsource that business too, if they could. Oh! wait a minute, heard a while back, they are thinking about outsourcing drive-in operators. So there you go.
Again I am not justifying any of this, just trying to present the facts.
<disclaimer>hard working immigrant from India</disclaimer>
- It's the economics, stupid !
- by October 7, 2005 2:55 PM PDT
- No I dont want to sound rude or insensitive to the concerns expressed by people here. But thats a fact, all countries, people, individual's are driven by economics.
- Like this Reply to this comment
-
Showing 3 of 6 pages (439 Comments)Immigrants come here because they want better jobs, better living standards, salaries etc. Companies are driven by bigger profits and like we have seen lately - greed, bigger n better resort/vacation homes etc. Countries want to expand their scope of economic influence. And nationals are expressing their valid concerns here because of economics (well some may have a different agenda. I am not sure), but I think most will agree its because of lower wages etc.
Fact of the matter is that off-shoring/outsourcing has done and will do no good to the middle class of this country, the politicians would obviously say otherwise. It has and will continue to take jobs to cheaper countries, like it did with the manufacturing industry. It probably has fringe benefit - i.e., cheaper products n services. The simple theory of - You buy more for less. There will always be a debate on the QOS, but there's no doubting the theory. QOS is always relative and it usually does catch with time n competition.
So lets put this in context, essentially I am trying to present a theory where economics has a way of coming full circle and also finding its way. American corporations have always encouraged globalization, expansion. Take example of Coke/Pepsi. When it opens a shop in a foreign country, it closes a local beverage producer. Why? Well because it brings in better technology, may be a better product, more money backing it up. What does this lead to - loss of jobs in the local market and/or less wages. What does the company do with the money it makes. Well part of it is invested back in the local market for growing the business and major part of it is routed back in the American system/economy (talk about the old man who helped grow this country ? let?s not discount this factor). And this has been going for how many years, now. There's no part of this world where American corporations dont have a presence. And all this I speak from first hand experience.
Anyway, I guess if you have read it this far, you get what I am trying to say. My aim was to bring things in context. I am not trying to justify outsourcing in anyway. Being a immigrant, I am most thankful for the opportunity given to me here. And I know my neck is on the line here too. Hey! my job could be next.
But the fact is, thats how economics is run. Businesses n economics will always try n find a way to be more efficient. Ask anyone who runs a business(big or small). Why does the restaurant industry (most of which is run by Americans) hires cheap labor. Hell they will outsource that business too, if they could. Oh! wait a minute, heard a while back, they are thinking about outsourcing drive-in operators. So there you go.
Again I am not justifying any of this, just trying to present the facts.
<disclaimer>hard working immigrant from India</disclaimer>