Comments on: Gates wants to scrap H-1B visa restrictions

Microsoft chairman comes to Washington to offer scathing critique of immigration rules, says H-1B visa limits should disappear.
Photos: Fed limits on H-1B under fire

[zarathustra911]

Misleading Title

Gates wants no cap on H1Bs, meaning no limit, rather than
"scrap H1Bs". A major difference.

Agree Very misleading Title

This title gives the exact opposite of what the entire article is saying. I would suggest it is pulled and re-titled.

Yep

I agree. I understood the title to be something completely different than it was. For a moment there I though Bill Gates might actually care about his fellow Americans. I was wrong.

Either the author didn't understand or he's trying to manipulate the facts

Bill G isn't a popular guy for a lot of reasons but this is either shoddy or yellow journalism.

[System Tyrant]

H-1B

I have to admit I don't know much about H-1B visas, but why not try educating Americans so we don't need to hire outside the country?

[jamie.p.walsh]

well said, but not entirely on target

journalists and corporate PR people say that it's an education issue, but it's NOT. IT IS A MONEY ISSUE. IT ALWAYS WAS. It's not that Americans are under-educated, it's that their counterparts in low-cost countries are CHEAPER. I would debate that issue, but we've already seen some companies who've offshored already recourse due to rising costs in THOSE countries as well.

Information Technology at the university level in the US is not deep enough. There is no specialization other than in most Computer Science programs which are typically PROGRAMMING HEAVY. Designers, Analysts, DBA, System Engineer, and Network Engineers should be able to specialize and receive a Bachelor's degree in those specialties. Having to then go through the expense of specialized MS, CISCO, CompTIA such programs is too expensive and prohibitive. Find ways to incorporate those or create comparable curriculums or we lose.

[vanox]

Because

For short term gains, it would cost companies less to hire those who have knowledge. In my opinion companies seem to do what is best for the short term, but neglect the long term effects. If companies would invest in training people properly, they could win back some loyalty and provide new opportunities for those employees.
It just seems that companies want the quickest bang for the buck and don't care who does it for them.

Just my 2 cents....

[MarkRegets]

Many reasons to hire across borders

This can be a very contentious issue, but it is increasingly normal in the world for hiring to be done across borders. Sometimes, particularly with truly hightech jobs (not entry level programmers), the person with the best fit for a job may just live across a border.

Should New York not let people from Connecticut work there in order to create an incentive to better educate New Yorkers? Both NY and CT would be poorer places.

Americans are too expensive

There are plenty of experienced Americans more than capable of doing the work that Microsoft and other companies need. The problem is that Indians are cheaper so Americans are tossed out to be replaced by cheap (shoddy) foreign labor.

[qazwiz]

makes sense... SO never done

you can't talk logic to beuracrats

[cyberblatt]

Because it is a "Banana Republic" where money rulez!

Until the "demos" notices its actual powerless fact that the whole voting issue is just faking of the democracy. Just look around whom US is supporting around the globe. It is mostly dictators. People are what makes a country in my comprehension. If they get neglected such country is doomed to fall. Such corrupt countries are called "Banana Republics" where usually corporations and money only, run the politics. Usually a civil war follows when the demos is pushed to far.

[declan00]

Headline changed

Yep, the original wasn't perfect. We've changed it. Thanks for the feedback.

[Filip Remplakowski]

The US doesn't...

seem to realize that there is a lot of talent from foreign students
that they are going to miss out on if they are going to cap the
amount of students coming in to the country. I welcome US
students and tourists to the UK with open arms and a friendly
attitude, they help the UK economy and I work with a couple of
people from the US and they're really great at keeping you
motivated and staying positive. I think the US should be more
liberal in allowing people into the country, without being
careless, and for once I would agree with something Bill Gates is
trying to do, which helps both foreign students and their
respective countries + the US. Hopefully there will be a good
compromise on this issue.

[tucsongeek]

It's about money.

Does the UK also have the welcome mat out for workers from India, China and Russia? Does the UK allow immigrants to come in and take jobs from well-qualified citizens because the foreigners work cheaper? The problem here isn't immigrants from Europe. Europeans demand similar wages and benefits as Americans. The problem is immigrants from the above-mentioned countries don't. That drives wages down here. Countries in Europe make it very difficult for non-European workers to get jobs in Europe. Perhaps we need the same type of restrictions in the US.

I don't blame the foreign student or workers. They are simply trying to get a job. I blame the guys like Bill Gates getting rich off of cheap foreign labor. If Indian/Russian/Chinese programmers demanded the same wages as their American counterparts, there would be no demand for them at all.

[David Arbogast]

...and the borders should be left wide open.

I actually disagree with Gates here. More H1Bs and open borders are good for business. But after witnessing firsthand the effect of H1B visa floods incited by Bill Clinton, I have no interest as an American IT worker in seeing more visa workers around. Cheap labor is the reason the borders are still wide open. (and political vote harboring) As capitalistic as I am, I want the borders secured and fewer H1B applicants being approved. Offshoring is an option, and so is establishing a base of business in another country. If you want cheap labor, take the work to the cheap countries. Security and jobs are still important, and the availability of offshore opportunities nullifies the "global economy" argument for H1Bs.

Now the MS conspiracy theorists will claim that I've been fired from my "paid" position as a MS supporter. LoL... ain't free thought great?

wages

Hmmmm, anyone who seems to be arguing for limits on foreign
workers seems to be saying they will work for 1/3 the wages,
work longer hours, etc. etc. Put another way, you are saying
they should cap the number so companies have to hire lazy,
overpaid Americans? Yep, that will help the economy.

[dargon19888]

Typical Microsoft.

Microsoft want tons of cheap labor without the deep technical skills to create efficient solutions.

He wants an army of people who can point and click to create easy to create but hard to maintain bloat ware applications.

Why? To sell more of his products and to drive down his development costs.

All I can say is GO LINUX!

[JoeF2]

It is NOT about money

Reading the majority of the posts here, I can only assume that the posters don't know anything about the H1B program.
Foreigners hired under the H1B program have to get paid the same wage as Americans. There is no undercutting. If a company violates the rules, anybody can complain to DoL, and they fine the company that violates the rules (and yes, this has happened.)

Furthermore, it is very shortsighted to believe that only Americans are smart. If qualified people are denied H1B visas, they will just compete against us from their home countries. So it is in fact in the interest of America to have these people here.

Don't be a Moron, It's about MONEY

H1-B's are NOT paid the same as Americans. The companies get around the law by creating new job titles and just plane cheating. Very few companies get in trouble and the Feds just look the other way. Thousands of good programmers are out of work, can't get hired, yet they keep bringing Indians in. Indians are replacing Americans and getting paid a fraction.

[JoeF2]

Do you have any evidence?

Do you actually have evidence for your claims?
If not, I consider that just another uninformed rant.
If you have evidence for your claims, why don't you report it to DoL? This is the form: http://www.dol.gov/esa/forms/whd/WH-4.pdf
I have every interest to see abuses of the H1 program stopped.

But, my main point stands: the H1 program is very beneficial to the US.
Without the H1 program, the smart foreigners just compete with the US from their home countries. And they have an advantage if they would: the cheaper labor in their home countries.
So, if you want to see the US prosper, you actually should be in favor of more H1Bs.

Umm, yes it is

I worked for a company that went out of it's way on two separate
occasions to hire people on Visas that were cheaper than the
U.S. counterparts. They altered the job requirements to hire
those people specifically when there were definitely equally
qualified U.S. citizens. There was a legal spit about it, but one of
the people went back to India, and the other ended up dying of
cancer shortly after he was hired.

With the number of U.S. IT workers who are unemployed it is
absolutely indefensible to support bringing in more foreign
workers. I have friends who would gladly take a cut in pay to get
a job today, but the jobs are going overseas or being filled by
H1B's so that Mr. Gates' and his friends can crank up their stock
values.

[Robert Wiseman]

If only I were rich like Bill

If only I were rich like Bill --- I could agree more with him. The country is full of cheap Chinese imports; at the low end we have plenty of cheap labor from Mexico, at the higher ends we have plenty of H1Bs. We are continuously send our manafacturing and IT jobs overseas --- meanwhile we have Indian casinos everywhere to keep us busy---- God has to have pity on the average Joe Six-pack in this country.....

[JoeF2]

Mixing two issues

The whole point about having H1s here is that the jobs don't get sent overseas.
H1s have to be paid the same as Americans. So, there is no cheap labor involved. The cheap labor is only coming into play if jobs are sent abroad.
So, if you are against cheap labor, you should actually be in favor of more H1s.

Americans lose jobs to cheap labor

Bill Gates is just another example of the rich CEO looking to make a few more bucks. Many Americans have lost their jobs in the Hi-Tech industry due to cheap H-1B labor. The influx of Indians has reduced software engineering rates by %50 and more. I know many experienced software engineers that can't find work. I have 20 years experience and can't get a job at Microsoft.

[JoeF2]

Where is your evidence?

You are just repeating slogans coming from known anti-immigrant organizations.
Provide your evidence. The only thing that happened is that the inflated salaries of the dot-com era are gone. Anybody who could read a VB book or who could spell "computer" got a job during that time. These excesses are over. Nowadays, you actually have to have knowledge about this stuff, and can't "wing it" anymore.

I got replaced by less skilled workers

I was working on a project and got replaced by less skilled Indians when the hard parts were completed by me. I know lots of people who have been replaced in the US by cheap foriegn labor. Ask an Indian what he's being paid, it's 1/3 to 1/2 what the same job used to pay a couple years ago.

[JoeF2]

Why didn't you report that?

I don't think that you are truthful here. If it was true, you would have had a legitimate claim against the company.
DoL actually enforces the laws regarding H1s.
Again, eplacement by cheap labor is against the law. So, if you had a real claim, instead of whining here, you should file a complaint: http://www.dol.gov/esa/forms/whd/WH-4.pdf

Your story is common place... But

What do you do to prevent it from occuring? Go back and get more education? Get reskilled? or own your own business?

It's amazing the time and energy you've must have put in to do your job well and then poof! Gone!... It's very frustrating and terrible especially if you can't get a job in the field you've been in for a while. And by the way, insourcing for Americans (insourcing is Americans working for Indian firms) doesn't happen. Try getting a job with their firms. That's reality. I hope you've found another job. Kitlist.com, Dice.com and Techworkers.com

[jhong123]

I don't think it's about the money..

I think the point is that many companies, including microsoft, want to hire the best of the best.. and increasingly, the best are not just in the US as they often were in the past. The educational system, and more importantly, access to cheap pc's, have led to a ton more programmers in the world.. and some of them are going to be very, very good.

there are countless articles showing data the point to this trend.. like this one: http://news.com.com/2100-1022_3-5659116.html

it is painful, as an american myself, to admit that the problem here is that we are no longer the single source of the absolute best and brightest.. but it would be a form of denial to simply blame this entirely on varying engineer personnel costs.

[JoeF2]

That's exactly the issue

You it the nail on the head.
It is a fallacy to think that the only smart people are in the US. I fully expect India and China being big players in the next 10-20 years. If the US even wants to have a chance, we need to take and keep every qualified foreigner we can get. If they work for us, they don't work for our upcoming competitors.

[sancat]

Welcome to the globalization

In the good old years, my country used to sell to the US a couple of tons of iron, for so much money, and get in return a car, for a 5 times multiplier. Things evolved, and because of free market the US is able now to ask for a 1000 times multiplier on a Seagate hard disk. So, my people have to pay a lot for this blessed device. And where that money goes? Yes to Seagate?s shareholder pockets, but also to Uncle Sam?s taxes, to build roads, and subsidize home loans. Your blessed living standards.

Reality is the world has shrunk; it is not possible to compete in a geographically isolated cluster. When a country decides to close its doors to imports, through several channels the US asks kindly for the country to open to imports. Remember the pressures on Japan? It is not only impossible, but also undesirable; Japan stagnation is rooted in its seclusion.

So, the US nation has to decide whether an impossible coalition of left wing unionized workers and right wing isolationists we-love-fox-news is going to undermine its competitiveness. I would suggest to stop winning and get real. If you don?t swim faster, Bangalore will outpace Silicon Valley. Who knows, maybe your kids will be denied a working visa for India or Brazil in 50 years?

Once I finish my masters at the best technical university here in US, I have to decide if I am going to sell my skills here or abroad. And quite frankly, if things get a little too complicated, not only finding job, but also fighting some of the prejudices expressed on this list, I will leave. The funny thing, I studied for free? So, are you going to use me or should I benefit another country?

[Stating]

Industrialist Never Met A Law They Liked

Of course Gates doesn't like H-1B. Like all good industrialists, he wants no government regulations at all. Do you think he likes government lawsuits regarding Microsoft's anticompetitive, monopoly practices?

BUT, I do agree with Mr. Gates that H-1B should be abolished to help Microsoft. Maybe if Microsoft was able to hire more foreign workers they could fix all the security holes in their products, charge less for their products, and ship them on time.

[b2bhandshake]

Bill G Speaks...

Bill G Speaks... and the world listens?

- Mohan
http://www.garamchai.com/mohan

Joe Feise is probably from India

The dude is replying to every post about how unfair this is to Americans and then defending the right of Mr. billionaire Bill Gates and Michael Dell to give more of our IT jobs to H1-B visas. lol. Joe, cut it out man. We get your point, you don't have to try to refute every post that is against H1-B work visas.

Oh yeah, and....

there's nothing wrong to be against illegal immigration. Bill Gates and Mr. Dell can pressure the government to give out more H-1B visas but it is the American people who will decide. And we have spoken, stop outsourcing our tech jobs out to India or China.

[JoeF2]

non sequitur

When people don't have arguments anymore, they come up with such ridiculous stuff.
I just have the better arguments...

[vanox]

So what is an H-1B?

Is it a visa that allows a non-U.S. person to enter the country for the purpose of working?

Is it needed when ANY work is sent outside the U.S.?

I'm a bit confused. If it is my first question, then there is no complaint to be made. Companies can replace their workforce with whoever they'd like. If my second question is true, then there would be a legitimate complaint.

Maybe I am just way off target.

[JoeF2]

It is a temporary work visa

It is a temporary work visa that non-Americans need to work in the US for a maximum of 6 years. This is currently capped at 65,000 visas per US fiscal year. Last fiscal year, the cap was reached at the first day of the fiscal year, Oct. 1, 2004.
To prevent salary undercutting, the law requires that the employers pay at least the prevailing wage to these people.
Like with every law, there are of course some unscrupulous employers who violate the law. These employers should be reported to DoL so that they can be fined and forced to pay the required salary.
But the vast majority of companies follow the law. It just doesn't make economical sense to risk a huge public backlash and PR disaster for a couple thousand bucks in saving.

Yes & No

Well, the H1B is a 3-5 year visa to allow skilled people into the USA to work. THe number of H1B applications has declined since 9/11.

So, the theory is - an H1B visa means a foreigner taking the job from a US citizen. BUT, they will be paying US taxes, spending money on accomodation, transport and food - all money going into the US economy. By comparison, a job outsourced to India means no US taxes and no money spent in the US economy - but reduced labor cost.

But a quote from Bill Gates (on cnn.com) he said "Anybody who's got good computer science training, they are not out there unemployed,". This does get me angry - my job has gone offshore twice in 3 years. I write IBM mainframe software & after 25 years, I think I'm pretty good at it. They don't even teach much COBOL here in the US, these days. But I cost too much. I can reduce my rate to break even on the bills for a moderate sized house & car & nothing else and I STILL can't compete with someone in India.

I've not worked since July last year & right now wonder if selling up & retiring to a tent in the desert might be a good idea.

I am an H1B worker

Yes that's right, I hold an H1B visa and I have been here for about 2 years now. I use a fake name to post here for the sake of privacy.

Now to clarify some things with H1B. First and foremost only degree holders and above can apply for H1B, or sometimes exceptionally talented workers. I have to go through a series of interviews with both my present employer and the US consulate to get the visa. It's not just simply handing an H1B to anyone, I have to compete with other H1B applicants due to the quota set to my country. The next stage is for my employer to prove that my skill is exceptional and not available locally. It took 5 months, certification from a US university to validate my degree and experience, and a few thousands $ to finally get the approval.

Is it worth it? My employer seems to think so. I have met many H1B holders and we all have somewhat similar experience getting here. I guess what I'm trying to say is we are not just the average workers, we earned to be H1B holders because of our skill. This may not be all true, but I can guarantee you that most of us are.

For the record, my average working day is 12hrs.
(I'm sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes.)

[Johnny Mnemonic]

What is your salary?

If you don't mind me asking?

I'm a programmer who has applied 3 times to MicroSoft, no response

I have been employed as a programmer for about 10 years now. I have been fortunate in that I have not been laid off during that time period (my ratings have always been excellent or above average), but I have switched jobs once in that time frame.

At my previous company the pay-rate was about 25% less, I was a develepor but classified as technician. Why? because classifying me as a developer/programmer would mean that the company I was working for (a major multinational company) would have to admit that anyone who is dedicated can program even without a college degree.

Look, I am a successful programmer, without a college degree.

Admitting that (a person without a degree can program) would mean that my company which was hiring H1-b's (as anything techs, programmers, you name it) at 30% less than what I started making at my new job, would have to open up the job search to everyone.

And also, before my first permanent job, 10 years ago, I applied to Microsoft with no response. At the same time another temp I was working with landed a job at Microsoft, and came back to the office about a month later. Everyone asked him, how did you land a job at Microsoft? His first words were, "You see I have a friend at Microsoft who..."

Note: When I was looking to switch jobs I applied twice to Microsoft, again no response. That make 3 times.

Look Bill, friends hire friends. Your not able to find programmers because people who apply are being rejected until someone's friend needs a job.

For Microsoft this all makes sense because, the major benefit of having friends in the office is that you can sand-bag. Microsoft is a company of sand-baggers, and tsunami of open-source is coming (sorry for the tangential comment).

What Microsoft needs is to really open up the hiring process and stop this cronyism.

What Bill is saying is totally at odds with the facts of the "new" outsourced-economy and the realities of how people get hired at Microsoft.

Half the developers I know have been laid off in the last five years, most are still unemployed.

[JoeF2]

Everybody can program

Quite frankly, anybody can program. It is designing software that's the problem. I did spaghetti code in high school. My college education was what taught me how to design software. That's a whole different ballgame than programming. Sure, programming is part of the job, but a comparatively small one.

Open Source development companies aren't looking for visa benefits

I wonder why Bill needs to visa privileges when his most feared competition doesn't. Perhaps his model isn't working anymore.

[qazwiz]

Good point

Of course the open source model allows them to work where they live not where Bill Gates lives

How do you think Linus Torvalds got to US ?

That's right, H1b visa. So you are basically misinformed.