Comments on: U.S. slips lower in coding contest

Chinese students win an international programming competition, while U.S. schools' performance hits a new low.

[jackintucson]

What Ever Happened To Discipline and Loyalty???

I just scanned some of the "blogs" here and I have to say I'm not surprised that most of you just sluffed this tragedy off or think there is a conspiracy of some kind. I've been in the IT PROFESSION for some 35yrs. now and have become increasingly disappointed in the direction that this profession has gone. I'm pretty much retired now but I spend no less than six hours a day keeping up with the technology and major issues surrounding it. Don't get me wrong, I feel deeply honored to be part of an industry in its earlier years and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But over the last 15yrs, or so, I have watched the "pc" and "mini" computer industry grow wildly without much structure or DISCIPLINE. But I digress....

Having "been there, done that", it seems to me that programmers of that last decade just didn't get. Especially in the development of systems and application software. There is this big black hole that has swallowed up two of the most important apects of IT today: DISCIPLINE in the design, development and coding of applications and, LOYALTY to the profession. I don't care how good you are, if you don't have these traits you will always be second best. Look at who is beating you out... look at their work ethic, social structure and education systems. I have worked with foreign IT professionals on all levels and was amazed at how structured their approach to IT develpment (I must say that it brings back refreshing memories of how it used to be done). Discipline in design structure and coding standards was the name of the game.

I was often asked about LOYATLY. Was I loyal to the company? I always answered "not particularly" but that I was loyal to my chosen profession. Having this type of loyalty guaranteed that I was giving whatever company I worked for the best solutions to their IT requirements available. I didn't care if I worked 80hr. weeks. I was hired as an IT Professional and that was what the company deserved. Just being able to crunch code just doesn't hack it. Crunching well designed, efficient and structured code will win the day every time.

I would just love to get deeper in this, but there isn't enough space. So, I leave you with this tip for all you employers out there. I always hired people with a primary degree (notice I said DEGREE) in business and I would teach them how to be an IT PROFESSIONAL.

There, that felt good. Thanks for reading.

Jack Foley
Tucson AZ

They were turned into short term profits

There is no discipline and loyalty without trust, and trust is like a mineral oil: Once it's pumped out, turned into cash, and burned, it's gone. Forever. Live with it.

I've been in this profession for about 25 years. The way I see it, it went the way of a railroad, or, better still, a car manufacturing. Pioneering days are over, and now it's time for that old assembly line style manufacturing http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/chaplin_mod_times1.jpg Factory assembly line is no place for an old school mechanic to be. Similarily, modern IT workplace is no place for an old school programmer.


> Discipline in design structure and coding standards was the name of the game.

No more. Haste & sloppiness sells better nowadays. Time to market rules.


> I was hired as an IT Professional and that was what the company deserved.

Companies generally neither deserve, nor want it. What they want is to cut the costs, no matter what the price might be.

Amen, Brother!

I appreciate your comments about discipline and loyalty to the PROFESSION. This has, at times, put me at odds with the Marketing mindset of "get it out the door as fast as possible to make a quick buck".

Too bad you probably won't ever read this comment.

Cheers!

Joe

mailto:[e-mail]

[jackintucson]

What Ever Happened To Discipline and Loyalty???

I just scanned some of the "blogs" here and I have to say I'm not surprised that most of you just sluffed this tragedy off or think there is a conspiracy of some kind. I've been in the IT PROFESSION for some 35yrs. now and have become increasingly disappointed in the direction that this profession has gone. I'm pretty much retired now but I spend no less than six hours a day keeping up with the technology and major issues surrounding it. Don't get me wrong, I feel deeply honored to be part of an industry in its earlier years and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But over the last 15yrs, or so, I have watched the "pc" and "mini" computer industry grow wildly without much structure or DISCIPLINE. But I digress....

Having "been there, done that", it seems to me that programmers of that last decade just didn't get. Especially in the development of systems and application software. There is this big black hole that has swallowed up two of the most important apects of IT today: DISCIPLINE in the design, development and coding of applications and, LOYALTY to the profession. I don't care how good you are, if you don't have these traits you will always be second best. Look at who is beating you out... look at their work ethic, social structure and education systems. I have worked with foreign IT professionals on all levels and was amazed at how structured their approach to IT develpment (I must say that it brings back refreshing memories of how it used to be done). Discipline in design structure and coding standards was the name of the game.

I was often asked about LOYATLY. Was I loyal to the company? I always answered "not particularly" but that I was loyal to my chosen profession. Having this type of loyalty guaranteed that I was giving whatever company I worked for the best solutions to their IT requirements available. I didn't care if I worked 80hr. weeks. I was hired as an IT Professional and that was what the company deserved. Just being able to crunch code just doesn't hack it. Crunching well designed, efficient and structured code will win the day every time.

I would just love to get deeper in this, but there isn't enough space. So, I leave you with this tip for all you employers out there. I always hired people with a primary degree (notice I said DEGREE) in business and I would teach them how to be an IT PROFESSIONAL.

There, that felt good. Thanks for reading.

Jack Foley
Tucson AZ

They were turned into short term profits

There is no discipline and loyalty without trust, and trust is like a mineral oil: Once it's pumped out, turned into cash, and burned, it's gone. Forever. Live with it.

I've been in this profession for about 25 years. The way I see it, it went the way of a railroad, or, better still, a car manufacturing. Pioneering days are over, and now it's time for that old assembly line style manufacturing http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/chaplin_mod_times1.jpg Factory assembly line is no place for an old school mechanic to be. Similarily, modern IT workplace is no place for an old school programmer.


> Discipline in design structure and coding standards was the name of the game.

No more. Haste & sloppiness sells better nowadays. Time to market rules.


> I was hired as an IT Professional and that was what the company deserved.

Companies generally neither deserve, nor want it. What they want is to cut the costs, no matter what the price might be.

Amen, Brother!

I appreciate your comments about discipline and loyalty to the PROFESSION. This has, at times, put me at odds with the Marketing mindset of "get it out the door as fast as possible to make a quick buck".

Too bad you probably won't ever read this comment.

Cheers!

Joe

mailto:[e-mail]

Contest?

Someone tell me, who won the Surgery contest this year?

Contest?

Someone tell me, who won the Surgery contest this year?

No surprise

It is not only IT where the US lead is slipping. The same thing is happening (or has happened) in all the sciences. The US has several major trends which make it inevitable that we lose our lead.

First we believe in faith, not science. We still have schools teaching creationism rather than evolution.

The destruction of our K through 12 education system has been well documented. The emphasis on standardized testing has ensured that even the minority of motivated intelligent students can no longer learn to think for themselves.

Until recently the US has maintained leadership by attracting the best and hardest working students from overseas to our major research universities. However three trends are now destroying that advantage. First other countries have been investing relatively more in their universities, allowing these students to do cutting edge research at home. Second the US has been reducing investment in universties and the research grants which support graduate schools. Third the post 9/11 restrictions on visas and immigration are barring the very people who could help us to maintain our economic and scientific security.

The example of the former USSR shows how quickly a "superpower" can become a poor, backward basket case when the basis of it's power is destroyed. The US may be well on it's way to meeting the same fate.

No surprise

It is not only IT where the US lead is slipping. The same thing is happening (or has happened) in all the sciences. The US has several major trends which make it inevitable that we lose our lead.

First we believe in faith, not science. We still have schools teaching creationism rather than evolution.

The destruction of our K through 12 education system has been well documented. The emphasis on standardized testing has ensured that even the minority of motivated intelligent students can no longer learn to think for themselves.

Until recently the US has maintained leadership by attracting the best and hardest working students from overseas to our major research universities. However three trends are now destroying that advantage. First other countries have been investing relatively more in their universities, allowing these students to do cutting edge research at home. Second the US has been reducing investment in universties and the research grants which support graduate schools. Third the post 9/11 restrictions on visas and immigration are barring the very people who could help us to maintain our economic and scientific security.

The example of the former USSR shows how quickly a "superpower" can become a poor, backward basket case when the basis of it's power is destroyed. The US may be well on it's way to meeting the same fate.

[fred dunn]

Why learn to code when you'll be outsourced?

This is a "catch-22" Situation since we have some very good programmers but most have been soured by outsourcing at one point or another and have moved on to get business or other degrees where they can earn a decent living.
The day of the American lead in IT is fats becoming history due to the short-sidedness of corporate america and their bottom-line mentality.
It is now starting to come back to haunt us and will continue to do so until american enterprise returns to a strategy of long term goals and not quarterly goals.
Why in the world would ANYBODY enrolled in higher education want to learn programming so they can be an insecure second rate employee to some contractor?
There are no surprises here. The same thing has happened to the US steel industry, Linen industry, etc.
It will almost take a world war to shake up America to realize that a good deal of what used to comprise american gross national product is brought back to America by necessity.

Fred Dunn

[culture_of_one]

What we need more of...

in this world is dedicated entrepreneurs.

[fred dunn]

Why learn to code when you'll be outsourced?

This is a "catch-22" Situation since we have some very good programmers but most have been soured by outsourcing at one point or another and have moved on to get business or other degrees where they can earn a decent living.
The day of the American lead in IT is fats becoming history due to the short-sidedness of corporate america and their bottom-line mentality.
It is now starting to come back to haunt us and will continue to do so until american enterprise returns to a strategy of long term goals and not quarterly goals.
Why in the world would ANYBODY enrolled in higher education want to learn programming so they can be an insecure second rate employee to some contractor?
There are no surprises here. The same thing has happened to the US steel industry, Linen industry, etc.
It will almost take a world war to shake up America to realize that a good deal of what used to comprise american gross national product is brought back to America by necessity.

Fred Dunn

[culture_of_one]

What we need more of...

in this world is dedicated entrepreneurs.

U.S. Programming Competitveness Ranking

It is not a school funding problem - it's the economy ... students whao night have excelled in technology are not enrolling because all of the entry-point jobs in the U.S. for programmers, datebase managers and service have vanished. No entry jobs means no I.T. jobs (with companies to or as individuals) to pay for further higher eduacation (with the advantages of having some practical experience). The countries that excel at higher-level technology will also be places that have a booming entry-level job market. The U.S. is left with an empty shell, making the shell itself all the more fragile.

U.S. Programming Competitveness Ranking

It is not a school funding problem - it's the economy ... students whao night have excelled in technology are not enrolling because all of the entry-point jobs in the U.S. for programmers, datebase managers and service have vanished. No entry jobs means no I.T. jobs (with companies to or as individuals) to pay for further higher eduacation (with the advantages of having some practical experience). The countries that excel at higher-level technology will also be places that have a booming entry-level job market. The U.S. is left with an empty shell, making the shell itself all the more fragile.

[jobardu]

US students fall in programming contest

Another great victory for feminism and political correctness. In the current paradigm the women are queen bees and the men are disaffirmed drones. What you don't value you don't have, and academic achievement and prowess are not valued. Boys are on the losing end of the gender wars because they lack powerful supporters. The "Blue State" liberal men have become self-serving castrati and refuse to acknowlege the existence of a war against boys. Girls are doing better at school but aren't being motivated the way students were in the past. Al
Queda males get more respect in the mainstream media and liberal establishment than US males do. The results are clear and will probably get worse before they get better. Just wait until these students get into positions of authority and start getting their, and America's, clock cleaned by less screwed up people from other countries.

[jobardu]

US students fall in programming contest

Another great victory for feminism and political correctness. In the current paradigm the women are queen bees and the men are disaffirmed drones. What you don't value you don't have, and academic achievement and prowess are not valued. Boys are on the losing end of the gender wars because they lack powerful supporters. The "Blue State" liberal men have become self-serving castrati and refuse to acknowlege the existence of a war against boys. Girls are doing better at school but aren't being motivated the way students were in the past. Al
Queda males get more respect in the mainstream media and liberal establishment than US males do. The results are clear and will probably get worse before they get better. Just wait until these students get into positions of authority and start getting their, and America's, clock cleaned by less screwed up people from other countries.

Special classes

From what I've heard, the Chinese schools have a class to train specifically for this competition. If we had that kind of oppurtunity we would perform to that kind of standard.

Special classes

From what I've heard, the Chinese schools have a class to train specifically for this competition. If we had that kind of oppurtunity we would perform to that kind of standard.

[vezzac]

No Future for Computer Programmers in US

I have spent 25 years as a computer programmer for a variety of applications. I started with Cobol, moved to IDMS, PowerBuilder and finally Web development. Last year my entire department was downsized. In a year,out of 15 co-workers, only ONE has found a fulltime progamming position and ONE has found a limited contracting position. I have education and business experience but it doesn't seem to matter to ANY employer in this country. I will probably end my career asking "Would you like fries with that?"

[vezzac]

No Future for Computer Programmers in US

I have spent 25 years as a computer programmer for a variety of applications. I started with Cobol, moved to IDMS, PowerBuilder and finally Web development. Last year my entire department was downsized. In a year,out of 15 co-workers, only ONE has found a fulltime progamming position and ONE has found a limited contracting position. I have education and business experience but it doesn't seem to matter to ANY employer in this country. I will probably end my career asking "Would you like fries with that?"

I just graduated a year ago and...

I don't regret getting a computer science degree. I found a job before I graduated, and I had multiple good offers. I wasn't even a good student. All my friends that I graduated with found a job, and we make more money than our non-tech friends with other degrees.

I just graduated a year ago and...

I don't regret getting a computer science degree. I found a job before I graduated, and I had multiple good offers. I wasn't even a good student. All my friends that I graduated with found a job, and we make more money than our non-tech friends with other degrees.

[Hernys]

What many asked for.

When the Open Source movement came in and claimed that software should be free, that corporations were evil and that programmers should code for the fun of it (or that corporations should live only on support services for their free apps), many didn't see the obvious consequence: developers salaries would come down (as there was less strategic advantage to hiring qualified developers) and it wouldn't be easy to make a living out of a development job. While large software corporations, which still live out of commercial software, pay quite decent jobs to developers, as the attack on commercial software goes on it might come to a point where corporations stop doing so.

[Hernys]

What many asked for.

When the Open Source movement came in and claimed that software should be free, that corporations were evil and that programmers should code for the fun of it (or that corporations should live only on support services for their free apps), many didn't see the obvious consequence: developers salaries would come down (as there was less strategic advantage to hiring qualified developers) and it wouldn't be easy to make a living out of a development job. While large software corporations, which still live out of commercial software, pay quite decent jobs to developers, as the attack on commercial software goes on it might come to a point where corporations stop doing so.