Comments on: U.S. slips lower in coding contest

Chinese students win an international programming competition, while U.S. schools' performance hits a new low.

[betelgeuse68]

Big Deal

I would tell anyone in a CS program, go to business school instead. Then you'll be making way more than all those "better programmers" over "there" and guess what, you're the boss man.

Having graduated from a CS degree, I would dissuade anyone with bothering with a classic CS degree. At this point, it's largely a waste of time. 90% of IT jobs are with businesses which have no interest in new computing paradigms, they just leverage technology to get work done and they could care less about design patterns, threading vs. forking, PERL, Ruby, Python, C++ and most other tech crap. They just care whether it works and how much does it cost. That's reality folks.

-M

[pcLoadLetter]

Depends on what you specialize in

If you specialize in web crap or generic software engineering, sure you will have a tough time. But those areas are dead easy.

AI, compilers,network security, and real time systems and still worthwhile, but they take more effort then the avenues most people take. You get out what you put in. Put in the effort and learn computers down to the logic gates, while having a solid understanding of mathematics and physics, and you will have a better chance of finding a good job.

[betelgeuse68]

Big Deal

I would tell anyone in a CS program, go to business school instead. Then you'll be making way more than all those "better programmers" over "there" and guess what, you're the boss man.

Having graduated from a CS degree, I would dissuade anyone with bothering with a classic CS degree. At this point, it's largely a waste of time. 90% of IT jobs are with businesses which have no interest in new computing paradigms, they just leverage technology to get work done and they could care less about design patterns, threading vs. forking, PERL, Ruby, Python, C++ and most other tech crap. They just care whether it works and how much does it cost. That's reality folks.

-M

[pcLoadLetter]

Depends on what you specialize in

If you specialize in web crap or generic software engineering, sure you will have a tough time. But those areas are dead easy.

AI, compilers,network security, and real time systems and still worthwhile, but they take more effort then the avenues most people take. You get out what you put in. Put in the effort and learn computers down to the logic gates, while having a solid understanding of mathematics and physics, and you will have a better chance of finding a good job.

Reality is

Testing and how you do in school doesnt mean much for real life,its how you take your knowledge to another level.....Idea itself is usless unless you make it happen and usualy it is in America where it does happen....Students from other countries my learn and know more then Americans but Americans know how to take what they know into functional thing...Imagine chinase Dell starting somwhere in garage and creating multio bilion dolar worth company somewhere in China?
I know many people from my country claiming they are smarter then Americans but they usually rive trucks,clean and do low paid jobs...if they are smarter how come they are not leading the way?I had to come to USA where I was recognized as good technician where in my country I would be laughed at with all my skills...and I come from middle of Europe.

[Prndll]

lol...

What's wrong with trucks?

Reality is

Testing and how you do in school doesnt mean much for real life,its how you take your knowledge to another level.....Idea itself is usless unless you make it happen and usualy it is in America where it does happen....Students from other countries my learn and know more then Americans but Americans know how to take what they know into functional thing...Imagine chinase Dell starting somwhere in garage and creating multio bilion dolar worth company somewhere in China?
I know many people from my country claiming they are smarter then Americans but they usually rive trucks,clean and do low paid jobs...if they are smarter how come they are not leading the way?I had to come to USA where I was recognized as good technician where in my country I would be laughed at with all my skills...and I come from middle of Europe.

[Prndll]

lol...

What's wrong with trucks?

[Stating]

Future Is Rosy According To The B.L.S.

Do not worry, Komrad. The future for the U.S. worforce though 2012, including tech, is very bright according to the BLS. "We have nothing to fear, but a chicken in every pot." FDR.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm
Tomorrow's Jobs
"Professional and business services. This group will grow by 30.4 percent and add nearly 5 million new jobs. This industry supersector includes some of the fastest growing industries in the U.S. economy.

Employment in professional, scientific, and technical services will grow by 27.8 percent and add 1.9 million new jobs by 2012. Employment in computer systems design and related services will grow by 54.6 percent and add more than one-third of all new jobs in professional, scientific, and technical services. Employment growth will be driven by the increasing reliance of businesses on information technology and the continuing importance of maintaining system and network security. Management, scientific, and technical consulting services also will grow very rapidly, by 55.4 percent, spurred by the increased use of new technology and computer software and the growing complexity of business."

Keith
www.techcando.com

[MyLord]

Nothing like driving using the rear view mirror

nm

[Thomas, David]

Hmmm ... JUST DO IT

Nothing peeves me off more than "reports". They are based in
marketing, and intended to make you feel good. Unless they are
reporting current, actual facts, that include the debatable
arguments along with it, they are just plain B.S.

Bottom-line, we just have to do it. Continue innovating,
continue learning, continue to push the envelope. The rest of
does not matter. Sure, we have some great inventors who died
poor, but that is true in every country. Nothing gets done by
looking into a "crystal ball", and nothing gets better by wishing
it.

[Stating]

Future Is Rosy According To The B.L.S.

Do not worry, Komrad. The future for the U.S. worforce though 2012, including tech, is very bright according to the BLS. "We have nothing to fear, but a chicken in every pot." FDR.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm
Tomorrow's Jobs
"Professional and business services. This group will grow by 30.4 percent and add nearly 5 million new jobs. This industry supersector includes some of the fastest growing industries in the U.S. economy.

Employment in professional, scientific, and technical services will grow by 27.8 percent and add 1.9 million new jobs by 2012. Employment in computer systems design and related services will grow by 54.6 percent and add more than one-third of all new jobs in professional, scientific, and technical services. Employment growth will be driven by the increasing reliance of businesses on information technology and the continuing importance of maintaining system and network security. Management, scientific, and technical consulting services also will grow very rapidly, by 55.4 percent, spurred by the increased use of new technology and computer software and the growing complexity of business."

Keith
www.techcando.com

[MyLord]

Nothing like driving using the rear view mirror

nm

[Thomas, David]

Hmmm ... JUST DO IT

Nothing peeves me off more than "reports". They are based in
marketing, and intended to make you feel good. Unless they are
reporting current, actual facts, that include the debatable
arguments along with it, they are just plain B.S.

Bottom-line, we just have to do it. Continue innovating,
continue learning, continue to push the envelope. The rest of
does not matter. Sure, we have some great inventors who died
poor, but that is true in every country. Nothing gets done by
looking into a "crystal ball", and nothing gets better by wishing
it.

[ricklev]

So What

I'm sick of the trend to admire certifications and competition winners. Did Gates, Woz and others succeed by getting certified or winning competitions? Ultimately, in the U.S., we admire those who DO things. Google will just hire the best of China's competition winners and spit out those who don't "DO things".

[ricklev]

So What

I'm sick of the trend to admire certifications and competition winners. Did Gates, Woz and others succeed by getting certified or winning competitions? Ultimately, in the U.S., we admire those who DO things. Google will just hire the best of China's competition winners and spit out those who don't "DO things".

[sphereframe]

I'd say...

I'd say that this competition says more about the people who are making a big deal about it. Perhaps they should leave their ivory tower long enough to understand today's IT issues. Granted, it is disconcerning that the US hasn't placed so well in recent years, but this competition is now completely out of context in modern IT. This competition was started in the 70's when computing resources were precious and expensive. Yes, 20 years ago it would have been terribly important to have a top notch "coder" to make the most out of very limited resources. Today I'm much more concerned about usability, requirements, project management, and return on investment. Over the last 20 years we have seen continuous improvements in our hardware and software capabilities, yet what has that yielded for IT? We still have a ridiculous failure rate for IT projects. If there has been any improvement, it is miniscule. The next IT revolution is not in improved "coding" it is in effectively utilizing our current levels of software and hardware sophistication.

[sphereframe]

I'd say...

I'd say that this competition says more about the people who are making a big deal about it. Perhaps they should leave their ivory tower long enough to understand today's IT issues. Granted, it is disconcerning that the US hasn't placed so well in recent years, but this competition is now completely out of context in modern IT. This competition was started in the 70's when computing resources were precious and expensive. Yes, 20 years ago it would have been terribly important to have a top notch "coder" to make the most out of very limited resources. Today I'm much more concerned about usability, requirements, project management, and return on investment. Over the last 20 years we have seen continuous improvements in our hardware and software capabilities, yet what has that yielded for IT? We still have a ridiculous failure rate for IT projects. If there has been any improvement, it is miniscule. The next IT revolution is not in improved "coding" it is in effectively utilizing our current levels of software and hardware sophistication.

The contest has a narrow focus

Take a look at the contest questions. They are almost completely slanted towards optimization questions. This sort of question (and training) is relevant to maybe 1 in 50 programmers. So I am inclined to agree with some of the other postings that the educational styles in other countries may be great for turning out academics attuned to this kind of contest, but not productive programmers. And in the U.S. we may already be suffering from an excess of academic computer science. I've often found people who have "picked up" programming while doing other work to be more practical and productive than Comp Sci students who are brimming with OOP religion.

[Richard G.]

...and that's why our software sucks.

You're right that there's a lot of guys out there who sorta picked up "programming" as they went along in some other career. I would know ... I'm the guy who had to come in afterwards to debug and fix all the problems they left behind.

"Hey, I got it to compile WooHoo!!! It's done!"

[pcLoadLetter]

Self-taught folks are usually the ones with seriously bad habits

Anyone who calls himself a programmer had better know more then just a few languages. Otherwise he/she is a joke.

Anyone can learn a language, but it takes discipline to go further and learn the whys and more importantly the hows. Sure, some self-taught people go on and do very well, but that is the exception, not the rule.

You would be surprised how many self-taught people do not understand how IO really works and how to avoid the traps and pitfalls in some of the biggest languages. They are the people that think that if it compiles and runs correctly once or twice, then the job is done. This sorts have no business programming, and would be better off somewhere that doesn't require disciple and attention to details.

The contest has a narrow focus

Take a look at the contest questions. They are almost completely slanted towards optimization questions. This sort of question (and training) is relevant to maybe 1 in 50 programmers. So I am inclined to agree with some of the other postings that the educational styles in other countries may be great for turning out academics attuned to this kind of contest, but not productive programmers. And in the U.S. we may already be suffering from an excess of academic computer science. I've often found people who have "picked up" programming while doing other work to be more practical and productive than Comp Sci students who are brimming with OOP religion.

[Richard G.]

...and that's why our software sucks.

You're right that there's a lot of guys out there who sorta picked up "programming" as they went along in some other career. I would know ... I'm the guy who had to come in afterwards to debug and fix all the problems they left behind.

"Hey, I got it to compile WooHoo!!! It's done!"

[pcLoadLetter]

Self-taught folks are usually the ones with seriously bad habits

Anyone who calls himself a programmer had better know more then just a few languages. Otherwise he/she is a joke.

Anyone can learn a language, but it takes discipline to go further and learn the whys and more importantly the hows. Sure, some self-taught people go on and do very well, but that is the exception, not the rule.

You would be surprised how many self-taught people do not understand how IO really works and how to avoid the traps and pitfalls in some of the biggest languages. They are the people that think that if it compiles and runs correctly once or twice, then the job is done. This sorts have no business programming, and would be better off somewhere that doesn't require disciple and attention to details.

[alucinor]

Algorithmic Programming Not Important

... and algorithmic programming is what these kind of competitions always emphasize. As a result, the US's shortcomings in math and Asia's advancements in math reflect upon the outcome of this competition.

But today's software has less and less to do with math and more to do with abstract thinking and communication. Todays' J2EE and .NET systems require "big-picture" thinking: "wide" abstract thinking as opposed to the "narrow" analytical thinking needed for yesterday's computer problems.

Of course, there is and will always be a certain tier of programming where algorithmic thinking is essential. Here is where Asia will stomp us.

However, for the majority of IT professionals, understanding problem domains, solution management, and above all, excellent communication will be essentials.

Communication not just through email, IM, meetings, etc. but even more so through the code itself: adherence to patterns, encapsulation, and self-descriptive naming of classes, variables, and methods.

Today's programming (for the "practical", business IT world) has more to do with Language than Math.

[sanenazok]

You know the US schools suck when...

they started offering "game programming" as a major. I spent two years of a four year degree studying "algorithmic" ideas and am much better for it. Just imagine if my school had taught me the "latest" in communication/language methodologies back in 1992. That would not be very useful today. Instead I got the background in problem solving which is lacking today.

[pcLoadLetter]

Way off base

Math and algorithms are the base that CS is built on. To ignore it, or even dismiss its importance is sheer ignorance.

It is like a math major I knew who thought that logic and proofs were not important in mathematics, when that is exactly what math is.

[alucinor]

Algorithmic Programming Not Important

... and algorithmic programming is what these kind of competitions always emphasize. As a result, the US's shortcomings in math and Asia's advancements in math reflect upon the outcome of this competition.

But today's software has less and less to do with math and more to do with abstract thinking and communication. Todays' J2EE and .NET systems require "big-picture" thinking: "wide" abstract thinking as opposed to the "narrow" analytical thinking needed for yesterday's computer problems.

Of course, there is and will always be a certain tier of programming where algorithmic thinking is essential. Here is where Asia will stomp us.

However, for the majority of IT professionals, understanding problem domains, solution management, and above all, excellent communication will be essentials.

Communication not just through email, IM, meetings, etc. but even more so through the code itself: adherence to patterns, encapsulation, and self-descriptive naming of classes, variables, and methods.

Today's programming (for the "practical", business IT world) has more to do with Language than Math.

[sanenazok]

You know the US schools suck when...

they started offering "game programming" as a major. I spent two years of a four year degree studying "algorithmic" ideas and am much better for it. Just imagine if my school had taught me the "latest" in communication/language methodologies back in 1992. That would not be very useful today. Instead I got the background in problem solving which is lacking today.

[pcLoadLetter]

Way off base

Math and algorithms are the base that CS is built on. To ignore it, or even dismiss its importance is sheer ignorance.

It is like a math major I knew who thought that logic and proofs were not important in mathematics, when that is exactly what math is.

[ncmathsadist]

smashing rice bowls

Well, it seems that the CEO class is going to war against the professional and skilled working classes in America today. While the few guys at the top shower themselves with money using the consent of semi- or non-sentient corporate boards, the people who actually accomplish things are being picked clean.

The policy: idle American workers where possible by outsourcing their jobs overseas or bringing illegal or legal workers here. Use these means to beat down the labor market at every turn.

Now upper managment has the market power to take away pensions and benefits. It lower dividends to shareholders to zero in the name of "putting money back into the business". Haha on that. Instead the CEO and his pals get all of their cronies appointed to the board and drain away all the money! This "vital and highly talented management" needs fleets of jets and endless perks along with outsized salaries to keep itself motivated. Perhaps we should call this new science Kozlowskology or Scrushbernetics.

Then we all have to hear a bunch of whining about the loss of American technical prowess. How stupid can we get? Be a lawyer or an MBA; forget about engineering and science. We just import those people from overseas. Yes, smash the rice bowls of the professional class and expect it not to react? Please! People are moving away from careers such as computer programming and into paperpushery such as business because the system of rewards and punishments out there tell them to. Its called: err...... being rational.

[ncmathsadist]

smashing rice bowls

Well, it seems that the CEO class is going to war against the professional and skilled working classes in America today. While the few guys at the top shower themselves with money using the consent of semi- or non-sentient corporate boards, the people who actually accomplish things are being picked clean.

The policy: idle American workers where possible by outsourcing their jobs overseas or bringing illegal or legal workers here. Use these means to beat down the labor market at every turn.

Now upper managment has the market power to take away pensions and benefits. It lower dividends to shareholders to zero in the name of "putting money back into the business". Haha on that. Instead the CEO and his pals get all of their cronies appointed to the board and drain away all the money! This "vital and highly talented management" needs fleets of jets and endless perks along with outsized salaries to keep itself motivated. Perhaps we should call this new science Kozlowskology or Scrushbernetics.

Then we all have to hear a bunch of whining about the loss of American technical prowess. How stupid can we get? Be a lawyer or an MBA; forget about engineering and science. We just import those people from overseas. Yes, smash the rice bowls of the professional class and expect it not to react? Please! People are moving away from careers such as computer programming and into paperpushery such as business because the system of rewards and punishments out there tell them to. Its called: err...... being rational.

who needs a programmer in usa

4 years after graduating with a Computer Science degree and still looking for a job in the field!
the bis companies are shipping jobs overseas and it is getting harder to find a decent job in here.
do you think more people will think of getting a C.S degree anymore ? no way.

who needs a programmer in usa

4 years after graduating with a Computer Science degree and still looking for a job in the field!
the bis companies are shipping jobs overseas and it is getting harder to find a decent job in here.
do you think more people will think of getting a C.S degree anymore ? no way.

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