Comments on: Vista Views: What Vista can learn from Leopard

Readers say what features from the Mac OS X update they'd like to see in the next version of Windows.

No women in panel???!!!

How comes that this "Vista Views panel, made up of ordinary readers", has no women on it?

[herkamur]

no women

Because women aren't ordinary, they're extraordinary. =)

Actually, joking aside, I thought the same thing to myself when reading the article. I too thought it odd that no women were included.

[enyad]

No women in panel???!!!

Why is it that we have to make a sexist issue out of almost everything? There could be an objective reason why there were no female contributors to this particular topic. It does not necessarily mean that there was some conspiracy theory attempt to prevent women from participating. Anyway, I guess we see what we are looking for.

In my humble opinion, this woman issue can be left for another "forum", so to speak.

[KarenSaid]

Women on Vista Views panel

There are women on the panel, and one is featured in this roundup of feedback. However, panelists may choose not to respond to a particular question, so there's no guarantee of the makeup.

Participation in the panel is open, and we'd welcome more female members. If you'd like to participate, please send an e-mail to: [e-mail].

[guyfrom2006]

No need to Hype

Though I do believe brand marketing is important in geting recognition of a product, companies should leave the hype out and instead concentrate on what it can deliver.

There is a lot of innovative technology out there but these are being introduced piece meal by the Tech Majors such as Apple, Microsoft or Google.

The reason is simple. Make money year after year by creating a hype on some new features.

I frankly admire smaller companies (such as Scandisk of 1990 lore and later acquired by Microsoft) who are the real hub of innovation. Yet, the media seem to be after only whats coming out of the Major Tech companies.

The other thing is there is a regional misfocus in that innovation from Asia is not given prominance. there are a lot of apples following over a larger number of Newtons in Asia..but are they on our radar?

I have been keenly watching one such company by name of NetAlter. They are claiming to be developing an alternative Internet Operating System. Recently, they got selected by Red Herring Magazine for their Annual Asia 100 Awards.

[Darwin_hak]

Some correction much needed!!

@Wallace Wang

I don't get your point. Window's System Restor is not aimed at
backing up data, but it mostly used for system recovery only. So
how can it be superior to Time Machine? And what are the
technical point that make you saying that?

System Restore is designed to automatically monitor and record
changes made to the core Windows system files and to the
registry. System Restore can then allow you to undo (or "roll
back") a change that caused instability in your system. This is
accomplished by periodically recording a "Restore Point" (or
System CheckPoint) that gives you the ability to roll your system
back to the point in time when your computer was known to
function properly.

System Restore is not intended to be an "uninstaller" or a backup
program. If Windows does not function properly after installing
software or drivers, you should use the Add/Remove Programs
tool in Control Panel (or use the program's uninstaller) to
remove the software before using System Restore.

So there is nothing to do here with Time Machine, Time Machine
goes far beyond this limited windows tool.

[bluvg]

Wang doesn't understand it either?

I don't want to say he's unaware, but I can't understand why he's comparing Time Machine to System Restore--they don't serve the same purpose. What he should have compared it to is Volume Shadow Copy (or Previous Versions as it is called in Vista). This already exists and provides exactly the "previous version" functionality... as so many others have pointed out.

[bluvg]

Where'd they get these guys?

Honestly, the lack of knowledge on the Windows side is amazing. McLaws is the only one that understands Windows deeply enough to realize just how hypocritical Apple is being as they copy feature after feature from Windows without blinking--even spending a great deal of time on them in the keynote. Even Wang makes a big mistake in comparing Time Machine to System Restore, rather than comparing it to Previous Versions or Volume Shadow Copy.

Does CNET pick these guys just to support their own agenda, or what? I haven't seen any actual critical commentary on Apple... well, ever. There are no comparisons at all--in any of their WWDC keynote stories--to features that exist already in Windows. But when Microsoft introduces or announces something, the articles are full of them. It really gets old.

[bluvg]

Where did they get these guys?

Honestly, the lack of knowledge on the Windows side is amazing. McLaws is the only one that understands Windows deeply enough to realize just how hypocritical Apple is being as they copy feature after feature from Windows without blinking--even spending a great deal of time on them in the keynote. Even Wang makes a big mistake in comparing Time Machine to System Restore, rather than comparing it to Previous Versions or Volume Shadow Copy.

Does CNET pick these guys just to support their own agenda, or what? I haven't seen any actual critical commentary on Apple... well, ever. There are no comparisons at all--in any of their WWDC keynote stories--to features that exist already in Windows. But when Microsoft introduces or announces something, the articles are full of them. It really gets old.

[huddie klein]

Yeah I wonder...

I guess they slept thru the keynote, how anyone can compaire TimeMachine to WindowsRestore is beyond me.

So I'll not tell you wich one is the better one, it's sooo pointless.

Let's all shut up about this Apple vs Microsoft thing. It's a pure waist of time, and it's a shame Jobs cant refrain from the MS-bashing. He should know better. He should just let his products speak for him, he has nothing to be ashamed of, IMHO...

[Darwin_hak]

Some correction needed!

@Robert McLaws

I don't think that you know what you are talking about. Time
Machine is fundamentally very different to what you find in
win2003. Apple did not rip off anything concerning back up
from windows, please inform yourself about the reality of the
technology behind Time Machine.

Win2003 has this feature called Volume Shadow Copy Service
that acts as a limited back up feature. Its implementation is
radically less advanced compared to Time Machine. The Volume
Shadow Copy Service is more of a convenience feature rather
than an alternative to backups. The reason for this is that
shadow copy data resides on the same volume as the original
data. Therefore, if the volume became corrupt then there would
be no way or restoring shadow copy backups. You would have to
rely on a traditional tape backup instead.
Another limitation to shadow copy backups is that they only
work if Windows is functional. For example, if Windows crashed
due to a corrupt registry then Windows would not be functional.
You would therefore have to restore Windows from a traditional
backup rather than from a shadow copy backup.
Still another limitation is that shadow copy backups are
designed to restore one file at a time. Because of this, shadow
copy backups are not suitable for restoring large numbers of
files.
Volume Shadow Copy Service works by performing periodic
snapshots of a system's volume. In win2003, Volume Shadow
Copy Service allows up to 512 snapshots to exist at the samte
time for the same volume. In winxp the limitation is even bigger
because it can only create non-persistent snapshots.

On the other hand, Time Machine works automatically, the user
do not need to specify times where the system backs up. What i
mean is that Time Machines backs files as they are changed,
automatically, the limitation of Volume Shadow Copy Service is
that again it can only do snapshots at a given time of the entire
volume. If you earse a file that are not been included in a
snapshot, well it is gone. This is much more limited and less
powerful. Time Machine seems to be implemented at the file
system level where it needs to be informed of the activity of
every file like Spotlight needs to do too. Also Time Machine
backs up everything from files to the operating system, and
application update. Volume Shadow Copy Service does not.

Finally Time Machine provides a totally new way of restoring files
that did not exist anywhere else. Not only Time Machines does
not have any limitation of the number of files that can be
restored, (Volume Shadow Copy Service does), it also provides a
revolutionnary way to access to the backed up information, view
it and get it back to the present. Another point, Time Machine
provides an API for the developpers, Volume Shadow Copy
Service does not.

So is ts clear that Time Machine is a far prodond technology and
better than Volume Shadow Copy Service. In terms of the
implementation and user interface, Time Machine is just unique
(Volume Shadow Copy Service recovering interface in win2003 or
Vista is horrible).

I don't think that Microsoft invented back up. Backing up
information was around from the 60's. So i don't know why
Apple should not provide its own solution, and since Apple
solution trully reinventes the way backing up information works
for the end user, i think that you are just mad and jalous that
Microsoft could not come up with such technollogy for its
backing solution.

Truly windows fanboy that does not understand the
technology!!! Aren't you?

[Machiavellian79]

Compare Time Machine to Windows Backup in vista

Yes, Shadow copy in Windows 2003 and XP were limited but then again if you would take the time to do a little more research you will see that MS has totally expanded the feature in their new Windows Backup scheme in Vista.

Everything you have stated is addressed in Vista with Windows Backup. To tell you the truth, your whole rant is totally irrelevant because you did not take the time to do a little research before you made your statements.

Every point you gave to Time Machine over shadow copy was addressed in Vista Windows Backup besides the interface.

Shadow copy is not limited to just the same harddrive in Vista but instead you can pretty much use any device CD/DVD/internal/external harddrive/flashdrives USB/IEE or network pc to store your backups. With Windows Backup in Vista, Shadow Copy is set to make backups of your files when they change as well or you can have it set to take snapshots of your files on a schedule (this is called Flexibility). You can restore one file or one folder or many Folders(that means many files). You can have Windows Backup monitor your applications not just your personal files that way if you happen to install an update to your program that makes it not work, you can revert it back to it's original state.

Windows Backup is turned on by default and also works automatically from Day one.

Also before you state that you cannot access shadow copies through basic scripting or API, maybe you need to go to MSDN and do a little searching then come back and retract those statements.

All of these things are expose to the windows developer and can be easily added to their applications.

The one thing I do not know if Windows Backup does is the real-time search/queries within your Application for the file you want to restore which is a very good feature.

[aestheticdebris]

Correcting your correction

Sorry, but you are completely wrong about how Time Machine works. From Apples Website:

"Time Machine will back up every night at midnight, unless you select a different time from this menu."

It's not taking continuous snapshots at all, it's just doing a run of the mill differential backup. Whether or not it's smart enough to use the file system journal, ala Previous Versions/Volume Shadow Copies, remains to be seen but it is certainly a lot less radical than you claim (and a lot less frequent than Server 2003 too.)

As to the idea that Windows needs to be running to recover in the case of a crash, what do you think the System Restore feature is for? This is using the underlying Shadow Copies feature to provide automatic system rollback. And it's even smart enough to automatically create a restore point when you install new software/drivers, something that Time Machine does not appear to be doing.

Truly a Mac fanboy who doesn't understand the technology, aren't you?

[bluvg]

VSS has no APIs? Why do you make stuff up? And cut and paste w/o credit?

Since you want to dig a bit into the technology--or at least, do some fancy cut and paste from windowsnetworking.com--you should understand that VSS is a platform, not just a service or application. VSS is not only for single files and file-level restores by end users. Exchange, for example, uses VSS to implement snapshot backup functionality. Does Time Machine support databases, for example, to create writers for snapshot purposes?

What's more, you have to have an external drive on the Mac to run Time Machine. There's no such requirement with Windows. BUT, if you would simply look at the screenshots from one website you copied verbatim (without any credit given to Brien Posey), you'd see that you can most definitely put the storage area anywhere you like.

"Time Machine seems to be implemented at the file system level where it needs to be informed of the activity of every file like Spotlight needs to do too."

Volsnap.sys--the VSS file system driver. No speculation on Windows; it's at the file system level.

"Because of this, shadow copy backups are not suitable for restoring large numbers of files."

The UI isn't there for that, and for good reason--admins would flip if a user attempted a restore over a whole working directory on an active file share, not to mention anyone else that has files open in the folder. This is not designed only for single concurrent user systems.

"Another point, Time Machine provides an API for the developpers, Volume Shadow Copy Service does not."

Simply false. Don't make stuff up when you don't know.

Apple definitely should provide its own solution--it's about time! NTBackup isn't fancy, but it's been around for ages. But VSS is a whole other ballgame, and you don't understand it, you just copy and paste selectively in hope that you're supporting your point. I don't fault Apple for developing Time Machine at all--it looks like a great addition. The UI on top is fancy. But let's be clear--it's simply not innovative, and it's simply not on the same level as VSS.

[edguzman]

Mac Rules !!!!!

Microsoft has always been in Apple's shadow... Since the '80. The
difference: Apple innovates, Microsoft imitates.

[dewalt25]

And linux is free :)

And linux is free :)

[rafaelrruiz]

Hello to Kevin Faaborg

Hello Kevin.

I've read some of your comments on Vista recently. Would be interested in hearing more of what you have to say.

Rafael

[thedreaming]

Vista and Mac OS X

Vista and Mac OS X are two different animals for two different users. Apple always focuses on the user experience, that's why people that have a mac, love a mac. Windows focuses on being the most popular OS and with Microsoft's mantra of assimilation and destruction, they've achieved it.

In the end, the user still gets a choice. You either want to be part of the popular crowd or have a great user experience? It's up to you, it always was and will always will be.

[djcaseley]

Oooh Ooooh!

I bet I know which operating system this objective commentator runs!

[TURNERO]

Microsoft copy Apple?

Let me see:
Web Clip = Active Desktop (Windows 95)
Spaces = Virtual Desktop Manager (Windows XP + other versions in the reskit since NT3.51)
Time Machine = System Restore

Maybe Apple have the upper hand in the UI but they're not innovating otherwise.

[ChazzMatt]

Microsoft copies too

Let me see

System Restore = Roxio's GoBack

Once Roxio invented the feature, Microsoft copied it and placed it in the OS for free. Why didn't Microsoft think of it first? They borrow, buy or steal all their features -- they have NEVER innovated anything except BSOD.

[i,Jimbot]

Earth to Robert McLaws

Robert McLaws' comments were hilarious. They are typical IT
defensive comments. "There's nothing about a Mac that's better
than what we have in Windows." Nothing Robert? Really. Uh, how
about security? Aren't you in IT, man? You would think that you
might be MORE concerned about security than whether you can
play games or watch TV on your $3000 box. Then again, less
computer security means more job security for you, right?

[djcaseley]

Foolish

Thats a foolish comment to make. I think you're probably the first one in this discussion to fall into that trap. Calling OSX more secure is like saying that a 12 sq ft island in the pacific has the best army on the planet. Why? Because nobody takes the time to invade the island or to attack the Mac. Why bother? If you take down EVERY mac on the planet, you've got 90-95% of machines still looking jolly healthy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro or anti mac. I think they've got their place in the industry. I wouldn't cry if they disappeared, and I'd use one if they became top dog. That said I'd love to give Apple a 95% market share for a week and watch all the smug Apple fans (a very silly number of which who are neglecting firewalls and AV software) to crumble under the barrage of viruses, worms, hacks and exploits.

[LonghornBlogs]

Why would you hack an OS with 3% marketshare?

Um... I'm not in IT. I don't fix computers anymore, so I'm not in it for job security in that respect. But you are right, I am a Windows Fan for job security... because I write software. And if you want to write software for the biggest audience, you'll write ot for Windows.

But on the topic of security, this pretty much sums up the situation: http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060513

[i,Jimbot]

Not one mention of security

From the whole panel, not one mention that they'd like Vista to be
better about security, like OS X. Not one mention of less viruses, no
spyware, adware, etc. Funny, perhaps they believe it just can't be
done. Microsoft has convinced you of this, haven't they. And cNet
has told you enough stories about the Mac viruses that you are
starting to believe them, right? That's how propaganda works, my
friends. Keep on believing that you must live with BSODs, viruses,
malware. Just keep believing...

[bluvg]

Perhaps because neither Leopard nor Vista is released yet

With regard to Vista, read:

http://www.crn.com/sections/microsoft/microsoft.jhtml?articleId=191900648

"Vista's security is at a level I didn't think was possible at such a large software development house. They just get it." -Dan Kaminsky

[djcaseley]

I refer you to...

...my comment on the above post.

[kamchoor]

I think of Leopard as the looser order sibling

Leopard comes out with great stuff...and if it seems like it's useful, I want Microsoft to copy it. If it is useless (much like the rest of Apple's OS) then uncle billy should not copy.

I don't like cool stuff that's useless...

[nnez4321]

Copyright infringement

Apple was sued by Creative for infringing on their patents when apple released the iPod. Hence the redesigns.

[ggupta7]

An open letter to Bill Gates

Dear Bill Gates,

It's time to wake up from and do some serious thinking! Look at Steve Jobs. Look at his presentation at WWDC! He's got all the skills of a good salesman. Just because you own 95% of the market doesn't mean that you can sit back and relax. You have to be aggressive. Here's some of the things you can learn from Jobs:

PUBLICIZE EVERYTHING... even if it is an extra Firewire port on front... Convince people that this is a big improvement over previous model

DON'T GIVE IT ALL AT ONCE... Don't include all the features in one OS release. Instead, add few at a time and call it a new version. Windows XP parrot, Windows XP peacock, Windows XP canary... just use your imagination.

DON'T GIVE AWAY FREEBIES... Don't distribute Virtual Desktop Manager as a Powertoy for free. Instead, rename is as 'Spaces' and sell it as a new version of Windows to make more money

COPY IDEAS... it's perfectly ok to copy ideas from companies like Konfabulator and make them yours. It's your birth right and no one can catch you on that

BLAME OTHERS... yes! copy the concept of desktop search from your competitor and then blame them that they copied yours

MAKE YOUR PRODUCTS APPEAR BETTER... take Front Row for example.... Jobs copied it from WMC, removed vital features from it, and made people believe that this one was better because it has fewer buttons on remote! Well, obviously, there are fewer buttons on a CD player's remote compared to a TV's remote... but you gotta tell people what you want them to believe

LIE! LIE! LIE!... get fake prices of your competitor's products and then compare them with yours. And live in the belief that nobody is going to go to dell.com and check the actual prices

TRY TO BELITTLE YOUR COMPETITOR... don't miss any opportunity to belittle your competitor... show people how desperate you are to sell your overpriced piece of c#$p.

... and release your keynote video in such a format that most people have to download your own media player to watch it.

[gefitz]

HILARIOUS! Sarcasm RULES!

Comparisons between ANY Apple operating system and ANY Microsoft operating system are ABSURD!

All these comments about "people like the Apple interface better", "Apple does this better", "Apple does that better". No matter how much money Apple spends on marketing/paying their people to post raves...they STILL will be an INSIGNIFICANT SHARE OF THE MARKET.

Why?

BECAUSE THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE PRICE!!!!

The only way Apple will EVER gain market share is if someone with a minimum of business acumen takes the reins, instead of an overblown salesperson solely focused on making tools prettier.

[ssmiroldo]

Full of it...

Your comments are as full of bull as you claim are Apple's and
Steve Job's practices and announcements.

You sound like a politician twisting information for his/her own
agenda (sort of like Al Gore and some of his examples of Global
Warming - i.e. the Aral Sea and Mt. Kilimanjaro ).

[danieljmalone]

Don't give Bill Gates tips!

Hey, you should't give Bill Gates tips.

Just let Steve Jobs and Apple beat Microsoft. I just watched Steve Jobs and others give his presentation, and I agree, it was absolutely awesome! I'm going to get a Mac soon.

[LonghornBlogs]

I'm on the Kool-Aid I-V at this point...

... I've been the first to admit it on a pretty regular basis (http://www.longhornblogs.com/robert/archive/2006/05/24/16284.aspx)

[vivekcnet]

Windows Vista Speech Recognition vs Leopard?

Here is a demo of Windows Vista Speech Recognition working:
http://blogcastrepository.com/blogcasts/37/windows_workstation/entry1900.aspx

I'm afriad I'm not very familiar with Apple's operating system - so can anybody clarify if Leopard has speech recognition?

Thanks

[ewelch]

Speech recog.

Macs have had limited speech recognition for years. Back to
before OS X. They've had a voice since the very first Mac, too.
Leopard makes the latter way better, and I suspect with Apple's
emphasis in Leopard on accessibility there's a good chance they
might have voice recognition built in like it was in OS/2 Warp 4.

At this point, Windows has an Application that does the best
voice recongition out. David Pogue at the New York times talks
about it all the time. Can't remember the name, but is it Dragon
Speaking Naturally or something else? Anyway, at this point in
time, Windows has voice recognition that outclasses anything on
the Mac. But this coming spring, who knows?

[alwayztheskeptik]

IT Support job = Windows lover

After reading most of the comments here, with a few exceptions, it
seems that the only people who rush to laud the greatness of
anything Redmond produces are the folks who stand to gain the
most from keeping the problem-prone Microsoft products up and
running.

[iceykola]

Or...

Maybe if there were more companies that were Mac based there would be more Mac IT Support jobs. Vista is going to make Windows Support a lot more easier of a job, or boring since there won't be as many problems. If companies knew how to lock down the computers a bit more they wouldn't run into virus or malware problems all that frequently either. I've never had a problem with my windows PC at work.

[voo.doo]

don't copy this

The one feature of Leopard that Microsoft should never "copy":

Requiring proprietary, overpriced hardware to run.