Comments on: Gates calls for 'infinite' H-1Bs, better schools

Microsoft chairman urges fixes to immigration law, better math and science education, and more research spending.

[asdf]

We're here for you Joe

The facts are well established and have been posted here, in the GAO report and elsewhere. You're pathologically denying reality. That's a sign of mental illness. Perhaps you should seek help as soon as possible. There's something significantly and profoundly unbalanced with a personality who repeatedly denies what everyone else agrees is reality. You seem like a neocon- you're fixated. Obsessed. Preoccupied with thoughts that are not real. I'm not kidding Joe. I want to help you. I want to help you heal. I want you to work through whatever it is you need to work through so you can join the rest of the people in this forum and in the larger world in perceiving reality. In being able to differentiate what is real from what is not. I want to help you. We all want to help you Joe. You just need to reach out. We're here for you.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html

http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,107442,00.html

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070226-8924.html

http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/policy/2006/051806.pdf

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1051857

[JoeF2]

And? There are lots of people who don't have a clue

You are the one who needs help. You need an education.

[asdf]

all about F2 visas, for JoeF2

Your Immigration Questions Answered by Here.


What is F-2 dependent visa?

It's for freaking spouses who are here because their spouses actually work here, that's what an F2 visa is.

What can an f2 do and not do?

F2s can:

1) get into America on the backs of their working spouse, who would be an H1B visa holder

2) travel and see the country!

3) stick around as long as their working (h1B) spouse is employed.

4) you MAY NOT work or hold any useful job at all, and therefore pay NO income tax.

5) you may however enjoy the conveniences that are provided to you by Americans who work and DO pay taxes.

6) you MAY NOT study on an F1 visa, unless it's recreational. You can take basket weaving. You can learn knit. And garden. What the hell, you're just sitting around all day with nothing to do anyway besides watch Oprah.

7) you MAY change your visa to an H1B if you can find a someone who will hire you with your job skills. Otherwise, sit around all day at th house waiting for your spouse to come home and post content-free and repetitive internet messages in talkback forums


Well, folks, that's the story of the F2 visa.

I think we all have the picture now.

[JoeF2]

What does that have to do with H1?

You are just another xenophobe. It is sad that the US education system produces such xenophobes.

[JoeF2]

Clueless troll

Oh, and if you think the F2 in my handle refers to the F2 visa, you are really paranoid.
I happen to be a US citizen, who actually thinks for himself.
Unlike you, who obviously needs others to tell him what to think.

[AvenueStuart]

I've Been Contracting at MS And Can't Get Hired

Bill Gates is full of BS here folks - here's why:

I've been working on a contract basis at Microsoft here in Redmond/Seattle for four years now. A staggering 1 in 3 workers at Micorosft is a contractor, many have been in various contracts for many years and want nothing more than to go full-time (FTE). I've seen MS repeatedly turn-away Americans to hire foreign workers.

On my last team, I shared an office with a lady from China who was a former FTE (she is contract now by choice)and worked as an SDET. She told me that Microsoft hires foreigners and moves them to the US because they DO INDEED PAY THEM LESS MONEY. One big selling point that Microsoft uses when luring candidates is that they can move around within the company. She told me that a lot of foreign workers are not allowed to move to other positions. She said that MS tries hard to recruit foreigners into jobs that are stressful and amibiguous, jobs that Americans eventually want to transfer out of. Foreigners are quite often blocked from moving to other positions because MS tells them that their visas are tied to their job numbers. I've heard others on campus say the same thing.

It costs a lot of money to recruit someone from overseas, then fly them to Seattle for a few days of interviews, then move them and their families to the US, and then house them for three months while they look for housing of their own - all of which MS pays for. By contrast, there are SO MANY American contractors who work in technical roles and are already familiar with MS procedures who ALREADY LIVE HERE.

And...regarding the comment from Orin Hatch about Mr. Gates having done so much for society - "You've done so much with your wealth that is so good for mankind". While I do agree that Bill has done some good with his money, there are MANY contractors who work at MS who don't even have health insurance. A lot of contracting agencies don't offer it, and quite a few offer more money if you do not opt to have health benefits.

Last week a contractor on my team on the Millenium campus (the "Xbox" campus) had an epileptic(sp?)siezure and collapsed into a door, cutting his head open and probably requiring a hospital visit. When the paramedics arrived and wanted to take him to the hospital, he refused to go - BECAUSE HIS CONTRACTING AGENCY DIDN'T OFFER HEALTH INSURANCE.

I know that this is not Bill's problem directly, but for leaning on contractors as much as he does in order for his company to be the success that it is, you'd think he'd at least do something about about making sure contracting firms provide good health coverage.

I happen to not think MS cares about people much, and after fours years of contracting i'm probably not coming back.

[qwerty75]

re

I live in Washington State, and know for a fact that there a many, many jobs available, not tied to Microsoft. If you have the skills.

If you don't like how you are treated, and if what you say is true, then why stay?

[asdf]

have my own company

and doing well , thanks.

[JoeF2]

Aka being unemployed

Obviously, since nobody as immature as you would be able to run a company.
In particular since your rants show that you have no clue about what is involved in running a company.

[qwerty75]

What would happen if this program was terminated?

There is a shortage in the U.S of PROPERLY skilled workers.

Companies would not just forgo growth because they can't find the workers. Nor should they be expected to. No one here can accuse me of being pro-business, but this is a fact. Businesses exist for only one reason, I just have a problem with it when that reason is achieved unethically or illegally.

So, we have a simple equation here.But it is not balanced, to meet the needs of business, more skilled workers are needed. No, someone with little background in CS does not likely meet the required skill set. You can't learn basic web programming and expect to get a high end job. You can't learn VB or C# and expect to get anything other then a simple-ish job. We are talking about jobs that take real technical acumen. These are the jobs that are not being filled with just Americans, because there are not enough of them.

So companies have two choices:

1. Outsource-now this is truly bad for America, at least if done on a large scale. Jobs are gone, and maybe forever.

2. Something like H-1B- This brings in highly skilled workers into America. How is this a bad thing? Jobs stay here, and skilled labor comes into America, and that enriches everyone in the country. Not only that, but they were not trained here, so that is a significant savings to the country. College is bloody expensive, and few actually pay for it out of their pockets. We all pay for it, and that is OK as it is a wise investment for the future.

Which do you prefer?

I don't know if the program is getting abused or not. Given the state of our country, there probably is more then a fair amount of abuse. But that is an enforcement issue and does not invalidate the reason for its existence. The alternative is companies leaving our country, along with most of the jobs(except the executive jobs of course). How is that pro-America?

Microsoft doesn't have to hire H-1B's. Even they can't get all the workers they need from just inside the country. And not just because many CS people have a moral objection to getting employment there. So if H-1B disappeared, what would MS do? Fold? Not likely, they would move operations overseas. Same story with Google, HP, Intel, Cisco, and other companies of all shapes and sizes. I don't see any positive to this very likely scenario.

Strictly enforce the rules, and what is there to complain about?

I am not an expert on this matter, but I do have more then a fair amount of economics training. I am also not a xenophobe, so I can see the benefits this brings to our economy and country as a whole. Wholescale

Is it possible to ensure that no QUALIFIED American is passed over in favor of an H-1B? Nope?

Is it possible that some H-1B's are working for less? Yes, but with adequate enforcement it can be kept reasonably fair.

But how is driving jobs out of the country in the name of some misguided paranoid-based loyalty going to help our country grow? Especially in the tech areas where we are slipping fairly quickly, while many other countries are gaining in the high tech sector?

[STS]

"Prevailing wage" is just too ambiguous...

Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visas

The "prevailing wage" provision is subject to easy abuse. For example, a typical American who holds a job will have retirement benefits (401K, etc.), insurance (health and life), vacation and sick days, etc. that can be worth up to 1/3 of their base salary (20-25% is typical) that employers do not have to offer H-1B visa holders. And many employers, especially in the tech industries are going to great lengths to avoid having to pay those benefits.

If US companies need more qualified employees, then they should hire people and train them... just like companies did before the H-1B visa program had been established. Of course, those same employers do not like that idea because they will have to pay those employees more or they will go somewhere else where they will get paid more. H-1B visa holders cannot leave their employers without sacrificing their ability to stay in the country (unless they can find an employer who can obtain a visa... something that is difficult).

These are just couple issues with the program and I believe that it should be eliminated.

Best regards,

Scott

[JoeF2]

The Wikipedia page is ok

However, your assertion about the prevailing wage is not.
The law explicitly states that people on H1 need to get the same benefits as Americans. That includes things like 401(k), health insurance, vacation and sick days, etc.
Again and again, please educate yourself before posting falsehoods.
If you need a reference, the law is in 20 CFR 655.731.
Furthermore, transferring to another employer is rather easy nowadays (that was one complaint that was valid in the 90ies, and was addressed in the "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act.")

[eyeswideoopen]

Infinite H-1B's

Doesn't anybody get the fact that he is blackmailing our country? Think about it - He has a monopoly on PC software - development software and retail, plus the education for it.

[JoeF2]

That's long gone

The monopoly is long gone.
Today, there are good alternatives, e.g., Apple, or Linux-based systems. The big PC vendors have started to ship computers with Linux pre-installed, for example.

[K.P.C.]

Wow . . . The JoeF2 show . . .

I just read thru over 200 posts on this subject.

I will in no way try to back up or support any of "asdf's"
comments because a lot of times he resorted to personal attacks
combined with the fact that most of his rantings kind of came
out of "left" field and I do believe in his heart of hearts he is,
pretty much, a socialist.


That being said . . . at least he did provide links to try to back up
his arguments.

JoeF2, on the other hand, stated that he didn't have time to
provided any links to back up his statistics or arguments even
though he clearly had time to post . . . I would hazard to guess .
. . at least 1/3 of the posts on the entire stream.

The 1 thing JoeF2 did repeat over and over and over again was:
" The H1 law requires that the prevailing wage is paid for every
H1 holder."

With that statement JoeF2 tends to ignore the people with 5, 10
15, 20 years experience in the field who have lost thier jobs but
can not find new jobs paying comporable wages to thier job
experience because people like Bill Gates would prefer to hire
the "H-1B's" from overseas at an entry level salary, usually for
only a limited year contract to also save on little things like
pension and medical.

This is how the salaries go down.
This is how highly qualified, experienced Americans are either
losing thier jobs or being shut out of the job market.

Just as a disclaimer:
I am neither a socialist nor a union supporter.
JoeF2 claims to be a libertarian.
There are certain portions of the libertarian platform I can agree
with but, if you follow that platform to it's extent, it actually
leads to anarchy.
And one of the platforms to libertarianism that I do not agree
with is totally open borders which is what JoeF2 appears to be
advocating in his vociforous defence of the "Infinate H-1B"
proposal the Mr. Gates is making.

Just my $0.02 worth

[JoeF2]

Hmm, not quite

"This is how the salaries go down."
Hmm, it should be quite clear that it is not possible to replace senior engineers with people fresh out of college from abroad.
Hence, with standard logic, if the premise is already wrong, you can not deduct anything from it.
No experienced engineers are replaced by H1s. And experienced engineers (me included, with 15+ years experience) can very well find jobs, provided they didn't sit on their behinds. The computer field is progressing very quickly, and people need to stay on their toes. It is called "Internet time" for a reason.

BTW, I am only trying to correct some misconceptions people have about the H1 program because they don't have direct exposure to the legalities of it.

[JoeF2]

And please read

And btw, I did not "claim to be a libertarian". Where did you get that from? I said I have libertarian leanings.
The first rule of any discussion should be to not distort things.

[JoeF2]

And as for links

I don't keep such links in my bookmarks. I usually have no need to discuss such fundamental issues.
It actually is rather suspicious that others have full collections of links to anti-immigrant and anti-H1 sites. I don't keep such links, either, although, like with the studies of economists about the topic, I have read the stuff they point to at one point or the other in the past.
As I said, I had conversations with higher-ups in IEEE-USA, e.g., with Paul Donnelly, I had an email conversation with Norm Matloff, where he admitted that his criticism is based on anecdotal evidence, etc. And of course, I have had lots of personal attacks from anti-immigrants, to the point that I have come to the conclusion that 99.9% of anti-immigrants are just clueless xenophobes. This whole thread didn't change that perception, it rather reinforced it.

[ToTrue]

'INFINITE' Keep packing em in

God knows we need to keep bringing more people into the U.S. so we can use more fuel, creat more polution and cover more countryside with houses, factories and dumps.

[JoeF2]

So why don't you start with reducing pollution?

It is Americans, after all, who buy the big SUVs, who build the big houses...
May I suggest actually posting some content?

[fcekuahd]

You said it brother

We need more people in this country like we needed Katrina. Microsoft can't solve its problems by hiring more people. As a general rule, product quality declines as you add more people to the project.

[JoeF2]

Incorrect quote

"Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later." is the correct quote from Fred Brooks.
Obviously, that has nothing to do with the H1, or with Microsoft. Gates didn't even say that the people he wants would work on specific late projects.
We indeed need more smart people in this country and less trolls who can't even quote right.

[mgee99]

Sorry

I am sorry to have ever engaged in this debate... but now must make one final pitch against the ideology that is being repeatedly pressed upon all who read this.

The most unimportant, yet most often quoted blogger in this string, never actually attacks anyone. Not in a direct manner anyway... he incites, always prodding for a response from the "99.9% of anti-immigrants are just clueless xenophobes." His true colors however, are displayed in the ready willingness to deflate his opponent?s ideals, purely for their opinion.

He finds it convenient in this environment (blog) not to have to reveal the sources of his opinion, except in name. He never ventures too far from the secure basis of his fundamental idea. His tone is non-threatening which might indicate he has no real passion, other than a passion to attack people who claim any sense of patriotism to this country and the work ethics of its people, or the entitlements of those who so deservingly, ?have established a legacy of creation and innovation.?

We will all surely give no quarter to his kind in reality and I shall give no concern as to his miniscule fate. Adieu.

If we truly need to enhance the limits on H-1Bs to allow that more informed and talented people, that will come to this country with the idea that they too can make it better, then perhaps we should. But if we are to open the floodgates of the Visa trade to the world, we will suffer the consequences of every corrupt forger in the world who can recreate a diploma.

For my friends however, around the world I apologize for falling into a small persons trap and seeming to be bigoted or indifferent to their needs or desires. American's want to work with people who know how to work hard and we appreciate people who desire to be more... it supports the ideals this country was founded on and strengthens our resolve, and in every way!

We should always want this. I pray we always will.

In the end there will always be the person fighting to ensure that the American dream is deflated... if not in this venue then in another, and/or another still.

And please always remember? Empty words can never overpower the commitment, passion and compassion that Americans possess.

[JoeF2]

And more ad-hominem

I state the law. And the law prohibits what certain people claimed is done. If things are done that are against the law, then the perpetrators should be punished.
In this topic, H1 violators should be punished. And people claiming to know of H1 violations should report them. In other words, they should put up or shut up.
Law violations will always exist, in all flights of life. That does not, I repeat, not mean that the law is bad. If it was, we had anarchy.
So, once more: The H1 does not, I repeat, not result in lower wages. It could only do that if law violations are tolerated.
Anybody with a decent education should be able to see this. Actually, people see that, since that's how it works everywhere else. With the H1, people's emotions, based on misrepresentation in the media and on some Net forums, just have taken the better of them. Again, the H1 does not lower wages, it does not displace American workers.
End of story.

[JoeF2]

And a final word

"And please always remember? Empty words can never overpower the commitment, passion and compassion that Americans possess."
Exactly. Your empty words can never overpower the commitment, passion and compassion that I as an American citizen possess.

[Jake Leone]

Microsoft is a rotten place to work.

From what I have read on this board by people who actually work at Microsoft, Microsoft is basically a modern day sweat-shop.

(Read the post by Avenue)

Note: I am now very glad Microsoft never responded to any of my resume postings.

What kind of a compansion-less Scrooge Bill Gates is, to allow one of his employees split his head open on the job and that employee can't even get medical attention because Microsoft (and Bill Gates) is too cheap to have medical benefits?

This kind of heart-less situation is probably occuring all the time at Microsoft, and we are probably only hearing about a few isolated examples.

Bill Gates is leading a 2-faced lie. He basically doesn't give a damm about his U.S. employees, uses them away, and then on the other hand tries to look like a modern day philanthropist.

What a complete drag in the mudd Bill Gates is for anyone who even associates with him.

Anyone who listens to Bill Gates is basically listening to a guy who leads 2 complete opposite lives.

He is basically a rotten miser with his employees.

And he is trying to wash the blood off his hand, like a Corleone. Is his wife running for office or something. Maybe he married a Marie Antionette, someone who doesn't have a clue to how callous and ruthless Bill Gates is with his Microsoft employees.

Such rampant discrimination, against U.S. worker occurs at Microsoft, it's ridiculous. Bill Gates is complete, spineless bigot, who is fomenting a belief that American are just not qualified.

Bill Gates is underclassing the U.S. citizen.

Bill Gates is trying to create a condition where american children do not have american role models to look up to in the engineering workplace.

Bill Gates knows there are 2 billion workers out there, and only 300 million american, Bill Gates wants to start exploiting that workforce now. And to accomplish this, he is trash-talking the U.S. workforce.

[Nizzuts]

in other words

you don't really know what you're talking about

>> From what I have read on this board by people who actually work at Microsoft, Microsoft is basically a modern day sweat-shop.

I've read a lot of weird **** on this board, but surprisingly you seem pretty comfortable just making up a bunch of stuff based on hearsay from random people.

>> Bill Gates is trying to create a condition where american children do not have american role models to look up to in the engineering workplace

are you aware that Gates is on his way out of Microsoft and is becoming a full-time philanthropist? His charitable endowment (including Buffett's contribution) is on a completely different scale from nearly all other charities. You should really get informed before regurgitating the chatter you've heard around the breakroom at Walmart.

[Nizzuts]

education + immigration

weird that almost everyone agrees that education in this country is broken in one way or the other but then won't concede this leads to a shortage of qualified skilled workers.

[JoeF2]

Yeah

For most posters, logic doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

[tetsuyo]

immigration - education

In California where it is fair to say is the hotbed of all immigration issues in this country, the education system has been broken by the mass problem of immigration. The system is just stressed out by the flood of immigrants in this state and that problem is created by employers(of all kinds) who have opened the floodgates of job opportunities to immigrants because they are cheap to hire. So cant you see how that simple fact makes the rich richer and the poor poorer in this country?

The 2 immigration issues(legal & illegal) are very closely related to each other because in each case there is a good job offered to an immigrant and we are seeing that an effect is rippling thru our society that is tearing the middle class apart. (Anyway that goes without saying because any immigration bill passed by Congress will deal with both forms of immigration. So please lets not try to separate the 2.)

I am for immigration because it is great for any country. But, you gotta take care of your own people first! You cant have Bill Gates building a highway for immigrations just to prop up his slagging empire. The days of Microsoft being highly relevant to American society is over. Now that company just seems to be doing more harm than good. I say that because immigration is supposed to ultimately help a country and its citizens progressively. Not break them down with lower wages and weaker schools and opportunities thus making them subservient wussies to their imperial government.

[Jake Leone]

Businessweek: The h-1b program is a "conduit to offshoring"

Businessweek: The h-1b program is a "conduit to offshoring"

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070208_553356.htm

This article details that the top 3 users of h-1b visa, for 2006, are Indian IT Off-shore outsourcing corporations

Infosys used 22,600
Wipro used 19,400

There isn't an american company in the top 6.

There are only ~65,000 h-1b visas per year. So if Universities and Medical institutions are wondering why they can't get Visas, it's because most of them are being used to off-shore U.S. jobs.

Quoting this BusinessWeek article

"In addition, the (h-1b) temporary visa program includes no requirement that companies in the U.S. try to hire American employees before they turn to foreign workers"

So even if you complained about your company prefering to hire a Indian workers, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court. And Even if you applied for a job and were the best candidate, it could "legally" be taken by a worker from Indian, and you "the american citizen" can stay on the unemployment line.

[JoeF2]

Wrong again

"So even if you complained about your company prefering to hire a Indian workers, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court."

Yes, you would. Read the law, not some article.
The journalist who wrote the article obviously didn't check the law, either.

[jefframse]

Or: we could simply locate our firms abroad

If there aren't enough engineers here in the states to staff our firms, we can accelerate the relocation of those firms abroad where there are sufficient qualified and motivated workers. Being of a techical nature, the work can be easily transferred to sites around the world, including where the firms may utilize their developed technology.

Sad, but similar to other industries such as the Textile industry looking for cheaper labor; our engineering and other technical industries are looking for available labor, (and perhaps secondarily, cheaper labor although this is not the priority at this point). If it can't get done here, then it'll get done 'over there'.

OK: Let's get those people over HERE and keep our firms HERE ...and... get working on motivating and qualifying people HERE for our engineering firms. How about it? Any questions ?

[Jake Leone]

The h-1b program is helping companies move U.S. jobs overseas

Companies like Microsoft are lying when they say they are going to move more jobs offshore unless they get more visas. The truth is, these companies are using the h-1b program to train foreign workers, and then send them back home to start the offshoring process.

Read the Business Week article:

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070208_553356.htm

Most h-1b Visas are used to train Indian citizens, who are then sent home, and used to offshore (move) american jobs overseas.

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates doesn't care for the U.S. workforce. Microsoft has a corporate policy to shaft it's U.S. workforce. See the following article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/30/EDGRJN7CFB1.DTL

Microsoft, Oracle, and other corporations are escaping from the responsibility of the 8-Trillion dollar federal debt. Half of a U.S. engineer's salary is taxes. These companies are further depressing wages, paying h-1b worker an average of 13,000 dollars (20%) less than their american counterparts. Thus further adding to the U.S. budget deficit and National debt, by reducing the amount of tax revenue and forcing a U.S. worker to the unemployment line.

The h-1b program has no protection for the U.S. workforce. The U.S. Department of Labor has said it is okay to hire an h-1b worker, over a U.S. worker, even if the U.S. worker is better qualified.

This was brought to light in open testimony, before congress, where a U.S. worker phoned a recruiting company and asked to apply for a job. She was told she could not apply for the job, because she was not in the U.S. on an h-1b visa.

The George Bush Department of Labor did not file any charges against the company. Even though most Americans would clearly see this as a case of open-discrimination against the U.S. workforce.

Companies prefer to hire h-1b visa worker over U.S. citizens, because:

* Foreign workers can be trained and then take the skills back home and continue the offshoring of U.S. jobs.

The 3 top users of h-1b visas are all foreign IT offshoring firms. Together these 3 companies take around 70% of the available h1b visas each year.

[Jake Leone]

Indian Commerce Minister: "It (h-1b) has become the outsourcing visa"

The following was taken from the International Herald Tribune:

According to the But the H-1B visa is being put to a starkly different use: It is now a critical tool for Indian outsourcing vendors to gain expertise and win contracts from Western companies to transfer critical operations to places like Bangalore.

"It has become the outsourcing visa," the Indian commerce minister, Kamal Nath, said by telephone this week while attending global trade talks in New Delhi, at which India is pushing the United States for a larger H-1B quota.

"If at one point you had X amount of outsourcing," he said, "and now you have a much higher quantum of outsourcing, you need that many more visas."

Read the full IHT report at:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/12/business/visa.php?page=2