Comments on: Gates calls for 'infinite' H-1Bs, better schools
Microsoft chairman urges fixes to immigration law, better math and science education, and more research spending.
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Idiot.
I know I will email my congressman and senator a letter along with a link to this posting to see how Joe's argument doesn't stand up.
Everyone knows that H1B visa costs Americans jobs and that very few companies pay a prevailing wage, especially when there is no one enforcing that law.
What kind of argumentation is that? Because I know what I am talking about I lose the argument???
I already have written my Congressperson and Senators with my arguments.
The rants against Congresspeople that others have posted here don't make a very convincing "argument" for you...
But of course, you anti-immigrants are welcome to expose yourself as loons and nutcases...
Economists, the people who are the actual professionals, know better. Look up the work of George Borjas from Harvard, for example.
Anyway, thanks for playing. No go back and learn things.
Parts 1 and 2 of the 3/7/2007 Lou Dobbs show on the Bill Gates testimony can be watched by going to the following links:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9183967286974233731
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3581912965027051739
As a public service, I will soon put excerpts of some of the most outlandish statements by Gates and his senatorial groupies. The Dobbs show just isn't enough to show how much of a sham this hearing was. The public wasn't invited to the Bill Gates show, but anyone will be able to watch my video clips.
Stay tuned!
To find out more about H-1B and to get on the free "Job Destruction Newsletter" email list, go to this link:
http://www.jobdestruction.info/
When you go from building to building, all you see is Indian workers and now they are hiring a lot of people from China.
These people have very poor communication skills and I wonder about their ability to even program well.
I mean look at the products that are coming out of Redmond, Vista is a freaking joke!!! XP was way better, I would never even consider to upgrade, MS stole a lot of things from OS X, even little icons, it's disgraceful.
I see Microsoft compared to Mitsubishi, they steal other car companies successful designs (Porsche, Volvo, Subaru) without thinking twice about it, that's what MS does too, on the daily.
Next thing you'll see is them hiring the North Koreans, bottom line, there is a lot of quilified U.S. Born or Naturilized citizens, who get passed over, because these people are willing to work for less.
Bill Jill and Co., is selling our American way of life down the toilet and Congress and the Immigration and Naturalization Service is allowing it.
I would now be viewing Bill as a national security risk and Ballmer too. Longer term they will do more bad for this country than good.
Linux is an operating system that was initially created as a hobby by a young student, Linus Torvalds, at the University of Helsinki in Finland. With no budget, he came up with a better OS, than MS will ever be able to copycat, that's why they are licking SUSE Linux ass right now, because they kind of see this in the future.
Just my opinion.
Mainframes are dead, and have a long time. That has nothing to do with H1s. H1s have existed since 1990, so it is obvious that your husband's predicament has nothing to do with H1s. It has to do with mainframes being phased out.
What I find is that JoeF2 is not a compassionate American. He doesn't consider worthwhile (without a noteable degree of contempt), the documented dissention from his idealistic concepts. I feel certain that JoeF2 lacks knowledge and fails to feel that many Americans yearn for the opportunity to improve their position in life. He must be of the mindset that in this day and age that a degreed foreigner (regardless of their credentials) has more to bring to the labor force in this country, than do workers who seek to move up through their experiences and talents.
But this is the discompassionate civilization we have created so we must lend time and consideration to his undesireable comments and consider what they really mean.
It can all be summed up in a few sentences. Based on all comments, People such as JoeF2 feel that Patriotic Americans are incompetent and incapable of significant achievement. Apparently they feel superior to Patriotic Americans or have created a world where they consider themselves Supreme and believe we all beckon for their most precious attention.
People who own such narrow minded attitudes that they would promote the idea that H1-B Visa's are not harmful to the success of the American workforce, have no compassion or moral sense of decency, since, there is ample opportunity to arrive in this nation through established processes. To create an "infinite" supply of H-1B Visas would create a glut of inadequately trained hopefuls who would capitalize on the opportunity. People who would support such a contemptuous condition in the midst of relatively stable economics seek a quick turnaround on their investment. They must simply desire to line their pockets with the sweat of hard working people who seek simply a better life and will stop at nothing for the opportunity to do so.
Good Day All.
What really needs to be done is to tighten the H1B process, so that companies cannot just go out and hire anybody on an H1B. People in foreign countries can provide fake experience and educational transcripts. I agree there are a lot of genuine and smart people on H1B, but the H1B process has too many loop holes that are being exploited.
And this is coming from a H1B visa holder.
visa is given to foreigners ONLY IF they cant find, or hard to find, a
citizen to do the job. H1B per se is not bad. Blame the law and
people implementing the screening.
What really needs to be done is to tighten the H1B process, so that companies cannot just go out and hire anybody on an H1B. People in foreign countries can provide fake experience and educational transcripts. I agree there are a lot of genuine and smart people on H1B, but the H1B process has too many loop holes that are being exploited.
And this is coming from a H1B visa holder.
I'm currently working on H1B and let me assure you I'm not a "cheap foreigner". I get paid the same as an American would be, so maybe you should do your research before spewing out useless comments.
I'm currently working on H1B and let me assure you I'm not a "cheap foreigner". I get paid the same as an American would be, so maybe you should do your research before spewing out useless comments.
It's guaranteed, more h-1bs and we are going to get more off-shoring.
The U.S. is 8 trillion dollars in debt. Off-shoring is expanding the debt by taking away jobs in the U.S. This is a debt that U.S. companies are fleeing from right and left. A typical U.S. engineer pays half his wages out in taxes. These taxes service the debt but also support out troops, support our sanitation, our highway infrastructure, India has none of this people die right and left from disease, people riding a bicycle. Corporations are being given a free ride to create a sess-pool slum in India.
The h-1b program started the off-shoring craze by american companies. There was never any talk about off-shoring IT jobs, until India was encouraged by the h-1b program and by american companies to develop IT educational facilities.
This is similar to situations in other 3rd world countries growing coffee or other food for export. India has no infrastructure, the road to hyderabad is a 1 mile per hour traffic jam, the people live in shacks made from trash, the place smells due to lack of sanitation. International companies are creating a sess-pool in a foreign country, and telling american workers here we can hire someone to do this for 1/10 of your wages and live in a sess-pool, we don't need you.
The three top Indian out-sourcing firms, are also the top 3 users of the h-1b visas.
Americans kids, need role-models of americans making a living in Engineering. Right now, the only role-model they have is an underpaid H-1b engineer whose only goal is to get trained and take their job back to India.
Corporations want cheap workers with a bachelors degree, if they truly wanted the best and brightest, they would be calling for limiting the h-1b program to those with a Masters degree or higher.
The h-1b program is being over-used by IT sourcing, and software development companies. So many visas go to IT outsourcing companies, that medical and educational organizations are cannot (and will never be able) to get in the Doctors and Professors that we need to be able to help the U.S. economy.
I will leave you with a question... would you rather export U.S. jobs to India, china etc... or would you rather we bring people to the U.S. and make them pay US taxes etc.?
I will leave you with a question... would you rather export U.S. jobs to India, china etc... or would you rather we bring people to the U.S. and make them pay US taxes etc.?
In the region I live in, there is a surprisingly large amount of high tech firms.
From network hardware companies that can stand against the likes of Cisco and be very successful, to embedded device makers, to software houses. Almost all of them are not finding the workers they need locally.
The first company I mentioned were forced to open another small office in the silicon valley just to get workers. Companies here are offering wages and benefits that match those wages in high cost of living areas like california, just to entice people here. The cost of living here is very low, a very nice house can be had for <$300,000, where the same house in calif. would run 2-3 times that.
Meanwhile the university that I attend has an all time low enrollment rate in computer science. When I graduate, there will be no problem at all in getting a very nice job, locally or nationally. And most of the open jobs here are senior positions, not entry level work.
Granted a lot of the work here in my city are truly high tech jobs, that require cutting edge skills. Perhaps that is the problem, IT is a field where you need to be constantly retraining. However, a good chunk of the work only requires a solid background in C or C++ with thorough knowledge of software engineering. People with a less then solid background and/or outdated skills shouldn't be shocked that they are having trouble finding work. I really don't think they should be blaming immigrants.
These days too many people only want to make big money with no effort, so they get dime a dozen business degrees, but most don't do well in that area, but at least a business program doesn't limit drinking time.
The jobs are out there. Form small shops to the giants, anyone with the background, and up to date skill sets can get hired and do well. So why the low enrollment rates in computer science and engineering, and as I understand it, this is a problem all across the US. Is it just the fact that it is a very challenging major that is scaring people away? Perhaps, but from what I see at my school and read about, math programs are doing well, especially among women. So it is not the math or physics requirements that scare people off.
Could it be perception? People see H1 people coming in droves. People see and read about outsourcing. This leads to the idea that tech jobs are not abundant, when in fact they are. So enrollment rates drop, the tech sector grows and needs new workers, but where are they supposed to come from?
The fact of the matter is that knowing a language or two is not enough. Companies need workers with the skills that really can only be gained in a formal setting. From my very limited experience the people I have heard complain that they "lost their job" to an immigrant, and those people that don't have the knowledge to continue to grow in a field that will likely never stand still. Yes, not everyone that lost out to an immigrant are under skilled, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule, IMO. My point is that too many people in the IT world are lacking the background in the fundamentals and theories of CS.
But anyway, there seems to be this circle that is feeding off itself. Tech sector grows, needs more workers then is available, looks offshore, people assume jobs are leaving the country so don't apply to the programs, so there are fewer qualified grads, so the companies look offshore, and around we go.
I am all for a global economy, but I am also think that the US needs to do a better job of educating people so they can actually get accepted into technical programs. But the industry as a whole needs to do a better job of encouraging people to go into high tech areas of study.
Unless there is a better job of boosting enrollment, by not only showing how exciting this field is, but also showing the available jobs, things will only get worse.
Every study I have read has shown there are more high tech jobs then qualified people. People have to come from somewhere. Would people be more comfortable is the majority of H1's were of European descent? I think some of it may be racism, a lot is close minded protectionism.
But the fact of the matter is that H-1B is a band-aid over a gaping wound. It is a temporary, but important solution, but with nasty side effects. Calling for infinite H-1B's in the same breath as calling for better schools is contradictory in some respects.
Yes, this program is necessary, but it needs to be administered more intelligently, and there needs to be a concerted effort from schools, government and industry to start stitching the wound that this program covers. Otherwise the wound will fester.
Granted a lot of the work here in my city are truly high tech jobs, that require cutting edge skills. Perhaps that is the problem, IT is a field where you need to be constantly retraining. However, a good chunk of the work only requires a solid background in C or C++ with thorough knowledge of software engineering. People with a less then solid background and/or outdated skills shouldn't be shocked that they are having trouble finding work. I really don't think they should be blaming immigrants.
These days too many people only want to make big money with no effort, so they get dime a dozen business degrees, but most don't do well in that area, but at least a business program doesn't limit drinking time.
The jobs are out there. Form small shops to the giants, anyone with the background, and up to date skill sets can get hired and do well. So why the low enrollment rates in computer science and engineering, and as I understand it, this is a problem all across the US. Is it just the fact that it is a very challenging major that is scaring people away? Perhaps, but from what I see at my school and read about, math programs are doing well, especially among women. So it is not the math or physics requirements that scare people off.
Could it be perception? People see H1 people coming in droves. People see and read about outsourcing. This leads to the idea that tech jobs are not abundant, when in fact they are. So enrollment rates drop, the tech sector grows and needs new workers, but where are they supposed to come from?
The fact of the matter is that knowing a language or two is not enough. Companies need workers with the skills that really can only be gained in a formal setting. From my very limited experience the people I have heard complain that they "lost their job" to an immigrant, and those people that don't have the knowledge to continue to grow in a field that will likely never stand still. Yes, not everyone that lost out to an immigrant are under skilled, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule, IMO. My point is that too many people in the IT world are lacking the background in the fundamentals and theories of CS.
But anyway, there seems to be this circle that is feeding off itself. Tech sector grows, needs more workers then is available, looks offshore, people assume jobs are leaving the country so don't apply to the programs, so there are fewer qualified grads, so the companies look offshore, and around we go.
I am all for a global economy, but I am also think that the US needs to do a better job of educating people so they can actually get accepted into technical programs. But the industry as a whole needs to do a better job of encouraging people to go into high tech areas of study.
Unless there is a better job of boosting enrollment, by not only showing how exciting this field is, but also showing the available jobs, things will only get worse.
Every study I have read has shown there are more high tech jobs then qualified people. People have to come from somewhere. Would people be more comfortable is the majority of H1's were of European descent? I think some of it may be racism, a lot is close minded protectionism.
But the fact of the matter is that H-1B is a band-aid over a gaping wound. It is a temporary, but important solution, but with nasty side effects. Calling for infinite H-1B's in the same breath as calling for better schools is contradictory in some respects.
Yes, this program is necessary, but it needs to be administered more intelligently, and there needs to be a concerted effort from schools, government and industry to start stitching the wound that this program covers. Otherwise the wound will fester.
That exactly is the problem. Lots of people think they can stay employed with their skill set from 20-30 years ago when they came out of college, and they then use immigrants as scapegoats when they lose their jobs. People seem to think they are entitled to a job, no matter what.
"However, a good chunk of the work only requires a solid background in C or C++ with thorough knowledge of software engineering. People with a less then solid background and/or outdated skills shouldn't be shocked that they are having trouble finding work. I really don't think they should be blaming immigrants."
I also saw lots of people, in particular during the dot-com boom, who got jobs if they were able to read HTML. They tended to be the loudest ones blaming immigrants when they got fired in the dot-com crash. The typical blame game. Common sense has gone out the window.
"Is it just the fact that it is a very challenging major that is scaring people away? Perhaps, but from what I see at my school and read about, math programs are doing well, especially among women."
One part is certainly the perception that CS is hard. Your comments about women in math is interesting. There are studies that girls do better in math and CS in highschool if they are taught in female-only classes. They don't have to fight the expectation that girls are bad in math. And there is a push in several universities to get more women to sign up for CS.
It is Bill Gates' job to go to Congress and ask them to take the limit off the supply of low-cost high-skilled labor that his company needs.
There is another question here though - With the high quality telecommunication technology available today, why can't Microsoft simply hire the talent they need in other countries and let them work from there? Perhaps that wouldn't have the desired effect on worker's salaries in Redmond.
That's what they are forced to do if they can't get people here.
"Perhaps that wouldn't have the desired effect on worker's salaries in Redmond."
Hmm, I don't follow you here. That would have the effect that the workers in Redmond would compete with the workers abroad who get paid less, don't have the US labor protections, etc.
It is much better to have the workers in the US getting US salaries, getting US benefits. It's a win-win situation.
loser.
It is tough arguing, eh? In particular since you don't have any arguments. All studies that are not just opinion pieces show that H1s are good for the American economy.
And I haven't seen any logic from you, either.
Here is some logic for you: People on H1 get paid the same salaries as Americans, they pay taxes, they spend their income here. Ergo, we have a level field salary-wise, their taxes and spending benefits the US economy.
If they weren't here earning a US salary, they would compete with us and get a much lower salary abroad. They wouldn't pay taxes here, wouldn't spend their income here. Anybody with even the most basic understanding of logic can see that it is better for the US to have these people here in the US. QED.
Or is his goal to abuse people who want to come to the US by paying them substandard wages and driving the wages of citizens down because of the cheaper H1B labor?
Is that your goal also Joe?
Well I think Americans are waking up...
I indeed hope that Americans are waking up and listening to the truth instead of the distortions from anti-immigrant nuts.
The US is already quite open --- being any more open, we might as well hands the foreigners the keys to our country.
It's incorrect to suggest that erecting immigration barriers protects Americn jobs except in eth very short term. Eventually investment moves to the best value.
The only thing that protects American jobs in teh long teram is American competiveness -- in skills and compensation.
It's similarly misleading to state that outsourcing loses American jobs. That's like saying that sneezing causes colds. Non-competitiveness loses jobs. Outsourcing is a symptom -- not a cause.
In addition, outsourcing frees up capital for additional investment, and the US is often the beneficiary of investment due to the large number of high-tech companies there. The US has a lead in this area, but it's a lead being eroded by a poor education system.
The US has a record trade deficit, with countries that refuse to raise the value of their currency.
The U.S. government is 8 trillion dollars in debt, a huge proportion of the national wealth is being diverted to pay the interest on that debt.
A typical U.S. citizen pays half of his income in income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and various government fees. That typically means that the average U.S. engineer pays out, in taxes more than the 3x the cost of the average Indian engineer, trained using an h-1b or L-1 visa.
The biggest users of H-1b Visas are offshore outsourcing firms that are using the h-1b visas to train foreign engineers in the U.S. in order to move those jobs back to India.
India has no infrastructure, people in India live in houses made from garbage, people in Hyderbad are content to go to work on a one mile per hour road to their high tech jobs. Corporations like Microsoft, are sending jobs to India, because they want to escape the U.S. national debt, and the high cost to maintain a standard of living that is free of disease and stagnation.
And with H1s in the US, jobs stay here and are not sent offshore. That's why it is good to have people on H1 here. It really is simple logic, and basic economics.
It's no secret that the biggest users of h-1b Visas are Off-shore outsourcing firms.
Tata consultancy wouldn't exist without h-1b Visas.
This h-1b program is facilitating, right and left, the offshore-outsourcing of U.S. jobs.
The h-1b program encourages, open discrimination and bigotry against the U.S. workforce.
In open testimony before Congress, a prospective applicant attempted to apply for a job, and was told she was not qualified because she was not an h-1b candidate.
If you let in an unlimited number of any worker, wages will drop. And the h-1b program has consistently, by all government reports (see the U.S. Federal Government's GAO report), allowed employers to higher skilled workers below their market value.
If you want to stop off-shoring, reform (replace or eliminate) the the h-1b program so that it only allows in workers with skills that are not easily offshored and in greater demand, such as Doctors.
You must limit the quantity of workers entering the U.S., because the cost structure in the U.S. is dependent on high-wages.
If you allow wages to depress (too much) in the U.S. the result will be a drop in Federal taxes, and a default. The final result will be a world-wide-recession. And a new U.S. depression.
Why is it that Denmark and Sweden and Norway have higher standards of living than the US? Because they aren't so blinded by weirdo ideologies that are a pale substitute for thinking.
No one denies that H1Bs have the effect of depressing wages. That's because they do . You like that. So what?
I am not a socialist. I just think that it's not business's job to look out for the good of the country; it's ours and that has to take the form of action though govt.
H1Bs are nothing but a government subsidy for corporate America. I am for the free market. Sometimes labor is scarce, and employers have to pay. Sometimes labor is plentiful and employees have to tighten their belts.
H1Bs are not about the free market in any way shape or form- they're about artificially flooding the market with labor to drive wages down. That's it.
Have they? I don't think so. In any case, they have much higher taxes, and they pay certain public benefits out of the higher taxes. First lesson in economics: nothing is free.
"No one denies that H1Bs have the effect of depressing wages."
Who is "no one"? Do I know him?
It is a fact that H1s do not depress wages. H1s have to be paid the same as Americans, by law. It is tough to argue when the facts are not on your side, eh?
195,000 in 2001
195,000 in 2002
195,000 year 2003
85,000 in 2004
85,000 in 2005
85,000 in 2006
925,000 H1Bs admitted into the US since 2000.
the L1 visa which is used by bodyshops has no numerical upper limit
Some 14 million Americans and legal workers currently cannot find full-time jobs in the United States. More than 100,000 American programmers are unemployed. When those who are underemployed or working in other jobs because they cannot find programming jobs, the total grows to about half a million.
First, the quotas weren't always filled.
Second, people become Permanent Residents and US citizens.
Third, the L1 has nothing to do with the H1. It requires that people worked in the foreign branch of the company for a number of years.
- Some FACTS about H1B visas
- by asdf March 8, 2007 7:05 PM PST
- Can employers legally hire H1bs even though an American is qualified and wants the job?
- Like this Reply to this comment
-
-
- Lies
- by JoeF2 March 8, 2007 7:56 PM PST
- That obviously does not come from the link you have at the bottom, but from an anti-immigrant organization. Let me guess: zazona...
- Like this View reply
Processing -
Showing 2 of 3 pages (249 Comments)ANswer: Hell yes. There is no requirement that employers consider U.S. workers before hiring a nonimmigrant.
Question: Can employers pay below the prevailing wage to immigrant workers brought here on Visas?
Answer : Hell yes. The L-1 visa permits U.S. employers, such as Oracle, to pay third-world wages to tech workers from other countries, even when they are working at U.S. sites.
Question: how many L1 visas are issued each year?
Answer: There is NO LIMIT on L-1 visas. None. Zero. Zilch.
Q4: How many Americans are unemployed due to the H-1B legislation?
Answer: Approximately 500,000 highly-skilled U.S. workers are now unemployed as a direct result of H-1B visas. After 6 months, and unemployment ends, then those who have not found jobs are NOT counted amongst the unemployed- they fall off the official count. Therefore , the number is far higher, especially when including the large number who have simply left the field.
Question: Doesn't anyone in the government know what effect this is having on Us workers?
Answer: Hell yes. The GAO has published a scathing critique of the H1B visa program which it says is rife with abuse, in fact the title of the report is: Better Controls Needed to Help Employers and Protect Workers..
Question: what can I do to help stop our nation from destroying its technical lead in the world?
Answer: you can call your congressman. You can search the web for anti-H1b organizations and join in their efforts. You're better off fighting in numbers than individually.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/he00157.pdf
They are a completely clueless, and their "statistics" has long been debunked.
Finally, the GAO study is from 2000, and covers things in the 90ies. As I have mentioned before, lots has changed in the H1 program in the last 10 years (actually, partly in response to the GAO report.)
Bottom line: you continue to make a fool of yourself in public. Poor boy...