Comments on: Bush defends India job outsourcing

President says best remedy is to encourage prospective employees in U.S. to acquire more skills.

From a flunky, C-grader level President

Where would George Bush be without his family connections and money. Lets face it, he did not make it to the Whitehouse based on his skills or intellect.

What a joke!!!!

[Rolndubbs]

Random rants....

At least post an argument for or against outsourcing, the state of the global economy, developing competition in foreign markets, or something that might be considered relevant to the article. Debate is a great thing, but only if people put forward there ideas/perspective on events and decisions. You simply posted a random flame that had nothing to do with the topic of the article.

[Christopher Hall]

Tired, overblown, and irrational

Last I checked, being a valedictorian is not one of the many requirements for President of the US. If anything, I'd rather have C-students in the White House because the smarties tend to have no people skills.

And since when has the Washington crew (or any politician, for that matter) been held to the highest standards of intelligence and ethics? If you're going to pick on the politicians, you've got a huge job ahead of you.

If you're going to criticize the President, at least use some current events. If you wanted to touch on his connections and money, the Dubai Ports World hooplah would have been a better candidate than his academic performance.

[rcrusoe]

Better check your facts

I've got plenty of problems with GW. I think he needs to close
the souther border, kill the ports deal, etc. etc. etc. But when it
comes to selecting a President based on intellect, in the last
election, you could toss a coin for all the difference between
Bush and Kerry.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/
2005/06/07/
yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student?mode=PF

IMO, no one who will do what is necessary to be elected POTUS,
is the kind of person you want in the office.

[master_xg]

you sound like a bitter old maid

W scored higher on his entrance test than Kerry or Gore...his
grades were higher than those of Kerry @ Yale.

Perhaps your right.... maybe he was not smart enough to invent
the internet...maybe he was not smart enough to bash the USA
in a time of war in an Arab country...maybe should have cheated
at University as did Teddy...

Where would your hero, Hillary Clinton...Rodham Clinton be if
she did not ride the coattail of her husband?

I guess the bottom line is you should get your facts straight...

You are the joke.

[kamwmail-cnet1]

Message has been deleted.

[devodave]

US class system

There is strong class segmentation in the US, despite the popular mythology that there isn't.

There is a capitalist class (stock owners and executives) with about 1% of the population and around 80% of the assets. This is the class of most of the US presidents. You don't see these people much unless you are one of them.

There is a professional class (college educated) with about 20% of the population. Some have money but still are never accepted in association with the capitalists.

And, working class at 60%; poverty class, 20%. These two classes have little ability to get quality education. College is difficult to get into for these people and they find they don't fit in due to social differences.

Less than 10% of the US population move from one class to the adjacent class in their lifetimes. Despite that, class envy is huge. People imitate the class one step up.

Not as severe a caste system as in India, but real, nonetheless.

[devodave]

US education is not free

Although the popular saying is that US public education is free, it is not.

Each person decides how much to pay for school.

You can pay $2000 in property tax per year to go to a public school rated "Academic Emergency".

Or, you can pay $6000 in property tax per year to go to a public school rated "Excellent". And, the associated costs mean that you need to make well over $60,000 per year to go to these schools. (Unless you get creative and rent a rich person's basement.)

If you live outside a major city, you have no choice but low rated public schools.

That doesn't sound free to me. Not equal opportunity either.

[SeizeCTRL]

Wouldn't it be great

if we could outsource CEO / CIO / CFO positions, outsource congress and the president... I'm sure there are millions of people in this world that can do the same if not better job for much cheaper, so why stop at IT jobs. Let's start out sourcing the over paid jobs, these guys who have multi million a year salaries while they are laying off and out sourcing jobs underneath them.

Take a pay cut and get your company in order and you might not have to hire 3rd world programmers to meet budget.

How do we compete on the price?

This is want I want to know. Somehow every offshoring supporter seem to overlook it.

[kamwmail-cnet1]

Message has been deleted.

[Rolndubbs]

Certain markets...

There are certain services/products that we can't compete with developing countries as far as price goes. But look at the customer service backlash dell is facing, cheaper isn't always better. There are two ways to remain competitive. We have to either offer a product/service that is worth the extra cost, or find a new way of providing the service at a comparable cost.

If dell loses %4(just a guess, I have no idea on actual figures) of their customers due to customer service issues, I am betting that puts a large dent into the money they saved by outsourcing their IT support. Things such as quality of service need to be taken into consideration when outsourcing jobs that require CSR's, and being cheaper does not always equate with being more efficient.

It boils down to this. If outsourcing offers your company a better opportunity to compete, no president or CEO who is being responsible to his shareholders is going to pass on the cost saving opportunity. But there are many factors that just cost per man hour to take into consideration.

[wowk99]

Right On George

Yes America, get a better education, upgrade your skills, then immigrate to India, work for less money..We will teach them a lesson they won't forget..

[rstinnett]

Who is he trying to fool?

This from the same man who recently SLASHED higher education funding opportunities and has done everything in his power to make sure that access to education is barred for many Americans.

How about we outsource the Presidency to India? God knows they can't screw up this counry nowhere near as bad as Bush has.

[Rolndubbs]

Not the governments job...

It isn't the government's job to fund higher education. The governments job is to protect life, liberty and property. Higher education is a privelage, not a right. It often requires hard work and sacrifice by an individual to pay their way through college. I don't pay taxes to put others through college after paying my own way through. People need to be responsible for themselves, not expect the government to just hand them everything.

[als]

Can I take back my votes?

The dumbest things I have ever done, is to vote for GWB twice. Jobs are outsourced to cut company costs, and for no other reason. Ceos Carly Fiorina and Craig Barret, among others, put forth the notion that jobs are outsourced, because the American worker lacks skills and education. That is utter BS.

[BogusName]

I feel your pain

but I under no circumstance would have voted for Gore or Kerry. I do have principles unlike those two.

I here too what you are saying to about those corporate raiders. One day when those corporations are no longer recognized as American, they'll realize their mistake.

[darkwaterx]

fool me once...

fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me....

twice?...well, all i can say is you got what you deserved.

[dmm]

why we can't compete on price

1) minimum wage laws & overtime laws
2) social security, medicare, & medicaid
3) strict environmental laws & regulations
4) egalitarian educational system

Basically, we have decided not to be a nation of "haves" and "have nots" -- at least not to the degree that is found in India, China, etc. Time will tell whether we can sustain that. It may turn out that we can't. It may instead turn out that these other countries can't sustain the inequalities in their systems. More likely, both will be the case: the middle class will strengthen in the "Second World" while it weakens in the West. It will no longer be true that smart, hardworking, well-educated Americans will almost automatically be able to earn a good living (but it won't be impossible either). And they will probably have to work longer hours for the same standard of living. On the other hand, technology will continue to improve life. This will be very uneven, of course. Some areas of life will improve even for fairly poor Americans. In other areas, technology will not advance quickly enough to compensate for global competition, and the average person will see his living standard drop in that area.

We need to ask ourselves: If we _could_ maintain our former dominance of industry and technology, but at the price of keeping the people of India, China, etc. permanently backward and primitive, _would_ we? Perhaps at times in the past America has fallen into the trap of "looking out for #1", but that is NOT the American ideal! We like to think that we are better than that. I hope we are.

[kamwmail-cnet1]

Hey I remember you...

You basically just keep posting feely goodie politically correct verbiage; while providing no truth or data to back up the demogagury.

Than when someone posts datum disputing your spiel, you try to get CNET to cancel their accounts.

Typical.

[Richard G.]

So you're basically saying...

So you're basically saying it's sucks America isn't a totalitarian dictatorship. After all, dictatorships have proven they have no use for:

"1) minimum wage laws & overtime laws
2) social security, medicare, & medicaid
3) strict environmental laws & regulations
4) egalitarian educational system"

Oh and for the record, it has been the BRITISH who kept the Indians down for so many decades, not American interests.

David I mean this in all sincerity...pack your bags and move to China. Trust me, their govt. has the kind of attitude you'll like.

[bcsaxman]

This is Bull

These things you mention are either inconsequential (minimum wage laws) or actually beneficial to keeping costs lower in an advanced economy like the US's.

Our current minimum wage, if it was actually some sort of standard that was used across the board, would make us one of the lowest cost export producers on the face of the Earth. In fact, manufacturers and companies usually pay 2+ times the legal minimum wage, because they couldn't hire anyone (legally) who would work for them otherwise. Minimum wages or less are only used in a few industries (like waiting tables, where tips are expected to make up the difference), or by those that employ illegal workers who come from places where they make even less. The reason - you generally can't live in an advanced, consumer oriented society on the minimum wage. So if such laws didn't exist, it still wouldn't change anything inso far as the cost of living in the US. As for overtime, besides being an emminently fair deal for the worker in question, its also a useful tool to keep manufacturers efficient. If they have to pay more just to keep someone working longer hours to make more product, the obvious incentive is to make your production process more efficient, if possible, so that you don't have to incur that cost.

As for 2,3, and 4 on your list - all actually work to keep costs lower in the fields they deal with. Environmental laws have substantial 'upfront' costs, but the costs that would be incurred from having to clean-up the toxic messes, and taking care of those getting sick or dying fron the same, would be orders of magnitude greater. Its all got to be paid out of the 'national pocket' at some point, so if the corporations have to bear the brunt in order to keep the overall cost lower for the country as a whole, that's just the way it should be.

Similar is the situation with SS/Medicare/caid. While we ceratinly don't utilize the levers of government to our best advantage in the US, other advanced economies have long since learned the cost savings that come from an efficiently run social safety net. In healthcare, not only do they have lower costs on the whole than we do, they also have healthier, more long-lived people. And there's no price you can put on the advantage healthy & experienced people bring to an economy of any sort. As for retirement, think of how much capital has gone up in smoke from companies reneging on their pension plans, and thus how the government has had to step in take up the cost of 'rescuing' these plans anyway - a double whammy. Meanwhile, the current SS system is the most efficient government program we have - something like 80-90% of each dollar going in goes to benefits. Contrast that with the Chilean privatized system (often held up as a counter-example), which is currently being strangled by management fees and unpredictable market fluctuations.

As for egalitarian education ... what exactly is the alternative? Only rich people going to school? How many underprivledged children do we flush down the toilet like that before we realize that one of them might have cured cancer, or invented a better light bulb, or what have you. Human beings are resources too, you know. And if you waste most of them, by not utilizing their brain power to the county's best advantage, that's as economically stupid as picking the best apples from the orchard by sorting through the seeds (i.e. before they've actually grown to their potential).

Again, if its all about efficiency & how any wasted national wealth puts us at a competitive disadvantage with countries that are so underdeveloped as to not have populations that are demanding equivilent standards of living yet (and it is), then these programs you mention aren't hindering us. They're actually keeping us in the game.

[schubb]

Jeez...

Since when is it my responsibility to look out for Indian/Chinese interests? I see no reason that I have to compensate for the rest of the world. If I have to work any more hours as you suggest, when will I sleep or see my family? The average US worker puts in more hours than the rest of the world already, how much more do people like you want?

[kamwmail-cnet1]

Whiners keep harping on "Price"

Try reading. This rebuttal was already posted. Lack of reading comprehension is yet another symptom of your problem, even though you were raised in a country with free education.
__________

Competing on price is not a problem. Pricing is a complaint used by retards in the past: i.e. coal mining and seamstress. In a country with free education, and all you can do is dig dirt or sew, you have a problem.

In a country with free education, and all you can do is whine about losing a job answering phones, you are pathetic.

In a country with free education, and all you can do is whine about losing piece work coding repetitive codes, you are pathetic.

That's one problem whiners have avoided: why are they so pathetic?

[dmm]

"Free" education will not help everyone

Not sure who you were replying to. It has already been pointed out above that US education is not actually free, since districts with better public schools have higher property taxes (and the housing costs more, too). But even if all schools were the same, not everyone would benefit equally. Kids are being told, "You can be whatever you want to be. Just dare to dream, and work hard enough." That's ridiculous claptrap!

It's not fair to call people "whiners" for supposedly not taking advantage of their "free education." Has it occurred to you that people are different, that some don't learn well in a typical classroom setting, that some have little aptitude for math or writing, or that some are debilitated by poor health, language barriers, or dysfunctional parents?

Certainly everyone can "succeed" in the sense of living a meaningful and fulfilled life. But not everyone can be a marine biologist, or an NFL quarterback, or a doctor, or an engineer, or a rock star, or a CEO.

[Captain_Spock]

I find it quite funny....

.... that there are quite a few post on this article by folks who are attempting to introduce/encourage/entertain a discussion on "pricing" and who may not have a clue with regards to how these apparent financial and economic results can/would be obtained. :-( And, guess how the American worker whose job has been outsourced to India can maintain his standard of living - Start-up your own company (if you think you are smart enough) and offer services (financial, economic and technical management consultant) to those Indian companies that do not have these skill sets; additionally, sell to India the technologies that they lack in their country, in time as their standard of living improves they will very much likely look to America companies satisfy their newely developed tastes!

[csg7]

America is giving away their jobs

If we think that any country can take away our jobs that there's no bigger fools than us.
Our corporates, who are americans too, are giving it away. how can u expect a country to snatch our job unless its offered by us.
Countries like India are executing what we are give them. Look inside for answers to solve this by education and better policies rather than blaming others which is the easiest to do for most of us !

[corporate_radical]

The Point

When executive management decides to off-shore jobs, who profits? You guessed it, executive management in the form of bonuses, increased paychecks and golden parachutes. Who suffers? The average guy who gets laid off and can no longer contribute to the economy. Who wins? Just look at the sales of yachts and luxury items. The rich get obscenely richer without proper corporate governance from the stockholders and the board of directors.

I agree with the previous post, let them eat their own dog food and off-shore some executive jobs that will save big $$$$.

[rstinnett]

Yet at the same time...

... we can give corporate welfare out to companies such as Enron, Chevron and the likes.

The typical Republican rhetoric at play. Take from the poor and give to the rich and then claim how it is our fault for being poor.

[dmm]

not this republican!

My platform to make U.S. competitive:
1) get rid of all corporate welfare (tax breaks, etc.)
2) get rid of all personal welfare (Soc. Sec., Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) except for disabled people and people over 75
3) get rid of all subsidies of all kinds (incl. flood insurance, most disaster relief, and education grants, as well as those benefitting specific industries)
4) do all forensic tests that could exonerate anyone in prison
5) those given a death sentence would have 10 years maximum to appeal
6) convert all life sentences for 1st degree murder to death sentences, retroactively
7) make 1st degree rape a capital crime, retroactively
8) make embezzlement of more than $1M a capital crime, retroactively
9) make drug trafficking across state or national boundaries a capital crime, retroactively
10) eliminate the mortgage interest rate deduction and the charitable giving deduction
11) permanently set the personal and dependent deductions to what they were in 1955 (in constant dollars)
12) balanced budget amendment to Constitution
13) mandatory 1-year service by all citizens between ages of 18 to 21 in either military, National Guard, Peace Corps, or Service Corps
14) National Guard can not be sent overseas without permission of both houses of Congress
15) amend Constitution so that federal judges shall have a 10 year term of office
16) amend Constitution so that simple majority of both houses of Congress can nullify a judicial decision
17) amend Constitution to eliminate seniority system in Congress
18) change congressional rules so that simple majority can stop a filibuster
19) kill the Space Shuttle and the ISS; use the money to fund research
20) triple taxes on energy but reduce income taxes to make it revenue-neutral
21) reduce reliance of military on super-expensive weapons platforms

[http://I reserve the right to flip-flop on any issue.|http://I reserve the right to flip-flop on any issue.]

[Get_Bent]

I have an idea

Why don't we outsource the Presidency to India? They certainly couldn't do a worse job of it than Junior....

[schubb]

NOT a junior

His Father George Herbert Walker Bush
Him George Walker Bush

I know that isn't the point of the thread, but that irks me.

[mrvista]

Bush: "You are nothing but a cost to be minimized"

Traditional Republican thinking looks at workers as costs to be minimized. With this mindset, of course companies are going to move jobs to where they can obtain their labor the cheapest.

I maintain that this is short-sighted because if you don't provide your local economy with jobs, you reduce the market for your products and those rich CEOs and board members will eventually have to deal with rapidly declining sales.

But this doesn't concern the Bush administration now. They rarely look beyond what they are going to have for dinner tonight. And by the time the American economy comes crashing to the ground, they'd already have fleeced America enough for them and their families to live quite comfortably for a long time.

[cohaver]

Logistics in Economic warfare

Robotics and AI is one way to fight back against outsourcing. Update our Automation systems at our Manufacturing plants can help. Open source Software to fight against big software companies that out source. Wind and Solar energy at manufacturing plants to lower production cost it now Almost cost as much as labor in the USA. And stop putting brokers and lawyers in charge of companies Technology to them are profit and bottom lines. America is famous for making it first and buying from somewhere else Latter. We need Generals in charge of our companies they see Logistics in Economic warfare.
We most teach Economic warfare and Manufacturing warfare to our MBA?S.
Remember this when you outsource you give up control of your local market by reducing
your customer base for a given product If your betting on income level of your customers
to be at level to buy given products and the over all market reduces this level by outsourcing you saved little and set your company to bankruptcy in future

[FutureGuy]

a small correction...

Even though I agree with most of what you said here a correction

IBM (an open source advocate) is one of the largest importer and outsourcers of jobs while Microsoft is a large net exporter and as a percentage of employees has one of least outsourced workforce for a software company. I heard this in a news report so don?t have the exact figures but I am sure one can search it up online.

[GrandpaN1947]

I feel much better now

I'm one of those unemployed guys who is no longer showing up in the unemployment numbers. I have to say, being 58 and unemployed and with no real hope for a meaningful means of support is quite disconcerting. At least, according to our President, I am contributing the betterment of our nation and that of India as well. Without those reassuring words, I would have thought our leaders had turned traitor and abandoned their countryman. I feel much better now.

[Jonathan]

umm the only real way to bring jobs back home..

Is to raise the average salary in other countries (Not just India but China and Africa as well.) to a point where companies don't save a crap load of money by outsourcing. America could have the best trained IT and coding professionals in the world but if X business can get support cheaper in Y country they will do it. Training and or schooling means exactly jack squat if a company thinks they can get something cheaper. I?m sitting in the middle of the perfect example. A year and a half ago my company outsourced their IT to one of the big 3 oursourcers. Not being happy with the results they then outsourced the desktop portion of that to a VERY cheap desktop support company. (A company that pays its off the street techs 50 cents over minimum.) I?ve jumped from company to company over the last year and a half. The justification is simple: we are saving money. Never mind the quality of support has dropped into the gutter.
Shrub and his cohorts don?t get this, which is ironic considering how pro big business they are: It?s all about the bottom line.

[Pmeyers1978]

ROFL

You men to tell me the guy in India makeing 5$ a day or whatever has more skills then me. ROFL, yeah i'll believe that when they know what the hell they are talking about. Ousourcing is about companies being cheap..they have your money and would prefer you to bug off instead of asking for help. Since they have to provide some help they set up some call center, where ppl get 2 weeks training, at least for DEll they get 2 weeks and then they put those ppl on the phone, never mind we can't understand them and they are purley reading a scripted troubleshooting manual. Its a joke, we need our President to setep up and make compines hire americans, not tell us we need more skills, do i need to learn how to talk like a forgein person taht you can not understand?

[Reflexsingh]

Ummm Not quite so Phil

I just read your post and wanted to enquire what makes you think that .... a person earning $5 a day = an unskilled person !!
Could you please justify this assertion with some reasoning and facts.
Oh and have you been to places like India to see what the skills of people there are like even if they earn lesser wages than their counterparts in the US.
Cheers !

[blagibb]

Sloppy outsourced tech support

I have actually worked for Dell. I've also had to deal with their outsourced tech support for a few years with my own computer. It?s good that Dell is providing jobs that could help 3rd world countries' economies, but the service is a joke and it?s shoddy at best. While working for Dell I can?t remember how much time I wasted fixing their mistakes that it seemed better to not outsource in the first place. It was always something amazingly trivial such as not dispatching the part, not calling them back, reformatting because the printer doesn?t print or sending 11 hard drives instead of one. And after dealing with customers that had to experience the outsourced tech support, it?s clear the customers are fed up with it. If you are going to buy a Dell PC, buy it from their business section, not the home user section.

[csg7]

It the same story even within US

Even if a local call center person can communicate better, its so hard to actually explain the problem and then get a real answer.
'Can i put u on hold sir' is all i hear and then get a stupid reply in the end.

[blagibb]

Agree to disagree

I've had great success with techs on the business side of Dell's tech support (not outsourced). They are easy to reason with and I can get problems resolved way faster than I can with outsourced techs, i.e. 10 min < 1 hour. When I talk to an outsourced tech I feel like I'm talking to a robot.

[concernedcitizen]

If Next Google, Amazon, Is Created In India? Like Russian Roulette!

What if Google or Amazon or Ebay were started by a tech worker in India, China, or Russia, instead of by tech workers in the US? I think most people do not actually stop to realize the enormous negative consequences that such an outcome would have had on the US economy, like losses in future US revenue streams, not only for Americans citizens, but for the US Government (and Military) as well. When you outsource steel production to China, you can be pretty sure that a foreign steel worker will not create a million or billion dollar company (it hasn't really happend that much in the past, right?). But when you outsource the wrong tech jobs, you just can't reliably predict which tech employee might create the next big internet company that provides the US with jobs and the US government with revenue (this actually has happened a substantial number of times in the past!). It's kind of like playing russian roulette, but with potentially enormous future revenue streams, instead of with ones own mortality. You just don't know for sure. -- Do you pull the trigger and wait and see? (Bush apparently likes this choice) - or do you decide not to play russian roulette to begin with? (I feel safer chosing this alternative).

[concernedcitizen]

Update: US Companies Only Care About THEIR Profits - NOT USA Revenues

US Corporations have an interest ONLY in THIER current and future corporate profits -- they do NOT care or concern themselves with current or future US Revenues. So, for companies, outsourcing is great; they increase THEIR profits by decreasing THIER costs (which of course is exactly what they are suppose to do). But what is good for US corporate profits is not necessarily what is good for future US government revenue streams. You see, it is not the particular US company doing the outsourcing that has to pay the price if the next Google is created offshores as a result of THEIR corporate offshoring -- it's the US government (and US citizens) that will pay the price.

[Captain_Spock]

"You just don't know for sure"....

... You and everyone else that are concerned about these issues can "know" for sure if you know how to do your Financial (IRR), Economic (ERR), Technical, Risk Analyses et cetera, et cetera.... (I have some formulas available for you) How do the US Political Leaders; or, for that matter - any country's leaders factor in these sophisticated evaluations is quite beyond me. If you ever find out - would you be so kind enough as to let the world know! :-\