Comments on: Acid2, Acid3, and the power of default

Opera CTO Håkon Wium Lie asks how seriously Microsoft's Web browser will support an upcoming Web standards test.

[MadLyb]

Wow, Sour grapes?

Granted MS has been exeedingly slow in adopting standards, but is Lie that concerned that he would begin attacking MS before they even ship a Beta of the product?

If I am the maker of a product, would I be inclined to let third parties tell me how to build it? I would try to serve my audience in the best manner, while insuring that my product continued to serve my business needs as well.

MS isn't a charity, it's a business, so take a little perspective.

That said, I don't especially like IE7 because MS is continuing their trend of dumbing down the interface and I expect IE8 to continue this trend.

As to ACID3, it is going to take much more than a rendering test to make browsers a stronger application delivery platform, with a major rearchitecture of the underlying protocols and systems to provide the efficient, consistent and reliable infrastructure, web applications need.

[bershi]

IE8

Microsoft has told the world what IE8 will do, so it's fair to start commenting on it.

You're right: they are no charity. Supporting open standards is not in their business interest, that's why they will never change.

[mababah]

Wow, missing the point?

Microsoft has explained what they want to do with IE8, and what they have stated that they want to do will damage the web even more. Why shouldn't Lie take them to task for what they themselves say that they will do?

[Penguinisto]

Wow, don't do code much?

Seriously. Let's start at the top:

[i]"If I am the maker of a product, would I be inclined to let third parties tell me how to build it?"[/i]

If I were to build a car, and in my execution of building it, ignore the NTSB, California's Emissions Board, and such... I suspect that I'd be screwed.

You see, Acid is a standards test. Does the browser meet it? If not, then it shouldn't be allowed to claim that it does.

As for "dumbing down" the browser, that's a problem with Microsoft's UI department, not the Web.

[i]"As to ACID3, it is going to take much more than a rendering test to make browsers a stronger application delivery platform, with a major rearchitecture of the underlying protocols and systems to provide the efficient, consistent and reliable infrastructure, web applications need."[/i]

Umm, I'll try to say this as delicately as possible: bullcrap.

* Right now, Microsoft's ideas of "application delivery" (e.g. ActiveX) also happen to be the main avenues for web-borne malware infection today... in spite of Java (and JavaScript).

* If it doesn't render worth a damn, then the UI (and consequently the user experience) is going to suck.

* You all-too-easily confuse 'intranet' with 'Internet'. A protected internal network is fine for running web-borne apps that really dig deep. The public Internet is not.

/P

[maccam--2008]

Pragmatic

...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...

[bershi]

Great to see Acid3!

I almost lost faith in WaSP when then seemed to support Microsoft's stand on proprietary meta tags yesterday. Today my faith has been restored -- it's good to see that they will continue their excellent work on Acid tests.

[ethana2]

absolutely

Their work is doing much to unify the web, and I am /extremely/ grateful for it.

*raises glass* --To the ACID team!

[lmasanti]

Are you sure?

quote:
"The IE 8 team has shown that it can render Acid2 correctly."

OK, but your own sayings tells us that they can be "faking it" thru
any one of the 3 options you posted!

[rinccc]

IE8 - is it capable of Acid2?

Microsoft has shown screenshots, so one must believe they have code to render Acid2 correctly. But that doesn't mean IE8 will pass the test. The point being made in the article is that, while Microsoft likes to say they can support standards, their prefer to ship products that are incapable of doing so without someone manually changing a setting somewhere.

Likewise, I'm sure Microsoft have the resources to support ODF in Office, but they prefer to use formats they have control over.

[bershi]

Microsoft - same old story

It seems that Microsoft still haven't learned how to behave. Their disregard for standards has plagued the web for a decade now. If this article is right, it seems they haven't changed a bit.

[tenbosch]

I love Opera, but...

I gotta say, I think Opera is arguably the best browser 'experience' out there. The Speed dial is my best friend. If you haven't tried it, you must!! Plus, I hate when I use Firefox and IE and attempt to use a mouse gesture and all I get is a pop-up menu. I think mouse gestures are the future. The widgets are awesome too. Well, except when you close the browser...

Now, all that being said. What frustrates me the most, is when I click on a link and the page looks all screwy in Opera. Obviously, the HTML/CSS is broken so that it looks good in IE. I don't care!!! Why can't they all look the same, regardless of browser. Or, when I click to view my GMAIL account and Google says the browser isn't compatible and I can try at my own risk. ARGGHH!!!

Please, please, please web browser companies, try and get along. Try and iron out the differences. Try and make each other look the same, even if it means breaking your browser. I could care less about a smiley face... :(

[mababah]

Opera's fault?

Is it Opera's fault if Google blocks it?

They can't all look the same regardless of browser because of Microsoft's anti-competitive practices! Instead of coding to STANDARDS, web developers are forced to code to specific browsers, and that means that they can only support one or two browsers, and the rest will be ignored.

Iron out the differences? Microsoft has been given the benefit of the doubt for many years, and yet they fail to deliver on their promises. Opera, Mozilla and others have tried to iron ou the differences for years, but Microsoft has been stalling, cheating, lying and doing everything it can to prevent competition.

[audiokat]

...but you should

You _should_ care more about the smiley face because it gets you
where you want -- a web page looks how it's designed in any
standards-compliant browser. It's not that browser vendors should
get along, it's that they should fully conform to the standards,
which is a goal of the ACID tests. It will allow more money to be
spent on innovation rather than making it work with every browser.

[www.hdgreetings.com]

Opera's own mistakes

Generally I agree that IE8 should enable standards by default or based on doctype.

However Opera is obviously biased here because of their massive lawsuit against MS.

I would ask this question:
If MS not following standards prevented Opera from succeeding, then how in the heck did Firefox do so well?

Why does Firefox decimate Opera in market share and is still growing?

Why do I use Firefox instead of IE on my computer?

If all these things are possible with big bad Microsoft in place it certainly seems Opera had the opportunity to get me to use their browser instead of Firefox.

One point I do agree with MS on is innovate don't litigate. The MS "monopoly" is not stopping Google one bit.

[mababah]

Opera has not sued Microsoft

"However Opera is obviously biased here because of their massive lawsuit against MS."

What massive lawsuit? All Opera did was to ask the EU to look into Microsoft's anti-competitive practices.

"If MS not following standards prevented Opera from succeeding, then how in the heck did Firefox do so well?"

Firefox did well? After all that money spent on Firefox, IE still has more than 80% of the market globally. It is still in a position to prevent competition.

"If all these things are possible with big bad Microsoft in place it certainly seems Opera had the opportunity to get me to use their browser instead of Firefox."

Not as long as Microsoft continues its anti-competitive practices. Even today, many sites still require IE. Even Firefox won't work.

"One point I do agree with MS on is innovate don't litigate. The MS "monopoly" is not stopping Google one bit."

Haha, that's funny.

Fact: Microsoft logged an antitrust complaint against Google last year.

Fact: Google logged an antitrust complant against Microsoft before that.

Apparently Google though Microsoft was engaging in anti-competitive practices as well! And apparently Microsoft's "innovate, don't litigate" is just nonsense. Because not only doesn't Microsoft innovate, but they complain about alleged anti-competitive practices too!

[mababah]

Microsoft and Google's antitrust complaints

Just to make sure this point is made properly:

"One point I do agree with MS on is innovate don't litigate. The MS "monopoly" is not stopping Google one bit."

This comment ignores the fact that Microsoft logged an antitrust complaint against Google, and before that, Google did the same with Microsoft!

So what happened to your hero Microsoft, eh? Looks like they are concerned about anti-competitive practices as well!

[lkrupp]

"We don't need no stinking web standards..."

We're Microsoft and we can do whatever we feel like. We have
90+% of the market and developers have no choice but to code
for us. What are you crybabies gonna do if IE8 is not standards
compliant? Refuse to let IE8 users access your web site? Yeah,
right.

Acid2, Acid3. pppffffftttt! What's that, some new drug?

Sincerely yours,

Steve Ballmer

[DrtyDogg]

Well

At 90+% of the market I'd say that IE is the standard and not what some other people say.

[rinccc]

Opera hasn't sued

You wrote: However Opera is obviously biased here because of their massive lawsuit against MS.

Opera hasn't sued Microsoft. They have sent a complaint saying that competition doesn't work for browsers.

[mababah]

Clarification: WaSP did not support it

Certain individuals connected with WaSP did support it, but the organization itself does not.

[zuted]

SON OF A B*TCH

As a web designer/developer this pisses me off to no end. I
cant tell you how sick I am of jumping through hoops for IE. I
have started recommending to all clients that they move to
Firefox or preferably Safari because its just not worth it to be on
IE. I have been holding out hope that MS would do the right
thing with IE but I can see now that its just wishful thinking.

I'm sick of conforming to MS... its time they conform to us.

[scottthesculptor]

What a useless test!

Wow! a test to make it look like the advertisers own the browser market.
If it renders in ACID then you know you'll be advertised to most effectively.

I'm happy to say that both browsers I have fail.
I install Flash on Firefox for the rare times I want to see a flash file. Default is to run IE without Flash installed, Active X disabled, no video, no animation, no sounds, and large fonts. It makes for a sensible non-animated browsing experience - but don't let the marketing folks know cause it fails the acid test

[mababah]

What a useless comment?

What on earth are you talking about, scottthesculptor? Do you even understand the purpose of the Acid tests?

Advertisers? Huh?

[rturner2]

As a web developer...

I can't believe that Governments allow non standard compliant web browsers to exist.

I would take a hard line approach like the EU and sue Microsoft and all other vendors that are not compliant.

IE costs every single country $1 millions per year in lost productivity - Governments and business have to pay web developers more money to make their web pages work!

THIS ISSUE EFFECTS EVERYONE!

Standards are developed for a reason - people are winging about "blu-ray vs HD-DVD", well, with web browsers, it is 10x worse.

PS - great article.

PPS - as a developer, we non built for Firefox, Opera and Safari and then spend countless hours getting the code to work on IE.

[Penguinisto]

I agree with you.

The blog on today's WSP page mentions a proposal by Microsoft to add flagging to be browser-specific (basically, you build the web page for one browser, and everyone else gets the shaft... guess which browser will get flagged more often than not?)

Check the source article out for yourself here:
http://alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype

Sneaky, innit?

/P

[ethana2]

Perhaps, but....

I'm sneaky myself. You know all those losers just get their browser stats skewed and **** off all their competent visitors.

Gecko and Webkit are the future. altenate useragents are the present.

[wp enterprises]

IE8 HAS ALREADY passed Acid2

Not that i'm the biggest MS enthusiast, but the link in this article for the test has a link on that page in the bottom left corner dated dec 19th/ 2007 that says IE8 passed Acid2
http://www.webstandards.org/2007/12/19/ie8-passes-acid2-test-2/

Your reporters really need to grow a brain

[rinccc]

No, IE8 hasn't passed Acid2

The point the article makes is that the celebration was premature. When IE8 ships, the author predicts that it will actually not support Acid2 despite previous claims and reports.

[sumwatt]

who should grow a brain?

reporter? it's called reading comprehension people - let's get it
together here.... :)

[Frewgle]

Where is Spock?

What about the OS/2 browser?...........

[The_Decider]

It would have to find a network card it can actually use first nt

nt

[jscott418]

Maybe we should bash web designers too

I think Acid 2 is only as good as the web designers who follow it.
I have seen countless times that two browsers even Acid 2
compliant display incorrectly. I am not sure you can blame this on
IE. Some of it is just bad web design. Plus, is it not true that Opera
has a beef with Microsoft right now. Did they not go crying to the
EU about IE being in windows. Maybe they should complain about
Safari being in OS10 too.

[mababah]

Is jscott418 completely lost?

You can blame it on IE because other browsers have to waste a LOT of resources (time, money, developer time) to be compatible with IE rather than polishing their support for open standards.

Opera did not go "crying to the EU". They asked the EU to look into Microsoft's anti-competitive practices.

Similarly, Microsoft asked the EU and the FTC to look into anti-competitive practices by Google recently.

And before that, Google did the same to Microsoft.

So according to you, Google and Microsoft went crying to the EU as well.

> Maybe they should complain about Safari being
> in OS10 too.

How clueless can you get? Mac does NOT have a dominant position in the desktop market, and they are NOT abusing their position to prevent competition in the browser market.