Comments on: Sun says Microsoft pact not a blow to standards

Despite a new window into Microsoft's proprietary technology, Sun Microsystems won't stop its call for open standards, executives and analysts say.

[David Mohring]

Leading Microsoft by the nose when it's Sun's nose with the ring?

The terms and conditions of the settlement do not make any sense for Sun in the long term.
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/44348.htm

Look at the actual terms and conditions of the settlement. Stephen Shankland, could you ask the Sun folks exactly how it going to be able to lead Microsoft into more "open pastures" when the actual terms and conditions put the ring though Sun's nose?

[RamaBrooks]

Sun's comments about openness

I find it rather comical and ironic that Sun Microsystems would make comments about how Microsoft needs to be more "open". In the IT shop I work in, we can purchase the EA volume licensing from Microsoft. They send us several hundreds of CD-ROMS (everything but video games in every possible language). Any PC or server that is based of the i386 architecture, we can install the media on. We only pay for the licenses we use.

The few Sun workstations and servers we have purchased do not come with any media on CD. Sun forces us to pay for a CD. Solaris install files are on a partition. If the Sun box is not configured properly then we need to shell out money for a media CD. We do not have this problem with any other UNIX vendors, just Sun.

Hardware is something you don't hear Sun talking about openness on. Consumers had to apply a lot of pressure just for them to continue developing Solaris for Intel. Sun as I have told the UNIX die hards at work is the "Microsoft of UNIX" (even though they are more apt to brand Red Hat with that title).

The point I am trying to make is that Sun tries to control everything (hardware, software and purchasing the media). I can buy a server running Microsoft Windows or even a PC from any number of server/PC vendors. And it comes with the media CD. If the hardware breaks, I have multiple choices for replacements or even to purchase upgrades. With Solaris boxes you are only stuck with dealing with Sun (unless you are lucky enough to have Solaris for Intel).

Sun's support contracts are difficult to negotiate and getting a tech out to swap out a bad hard drive or motherboard is darn near impossible. While FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, Microsoft Windows, AIX, Be OS and Novell have adopted the industry standard PS/2 port for keyboards and mice, Sun maintains their own standard. It is bad when our UNIX administrator needs a replacement keyboard for a Sun box and I have over 25 brand new PS/2 keyboards that are useless to him.

Video is another headache that Sun has introduced in our enviroment since we have to purchase specail "Sun" KVM adapters. Sun does not even bother adopting the industry standard VGA port for their video cards. And then our monitors are useless to the UNIX admins unless they have a special adapter (purchased through Sun) to convert a SVGA monitor (industry standard) to Sun's video card port (Sun's standard).

From both a hardware and software aspect, Sun Microsystems is a lot worse and monopolistic than Microsoft's practices because at least Microsoft is not trying to be the only company that you can buy hardware for.

The main reason Sun has picked a fight with Microsoft is because the NT Server started to bite into Sun's dominance of the server and high end market. Sun has made some pretty good developments to the computing industry, but those have mainly been software like Java and other web based technologies.

The arguements that Scott McNeily makes would have more credibility to me if they came from Linus Torvald because at least he is not running the most monopolistic computer company in the entire industry like Scott McNeily is.

Speaking of Linux, KDE desktop came from the Open Source's movement to port Sun's CDE (Common Desktop Enviroment) to Linux and other types of UNIX. If Sun wants to be a credable Open Source advocate, maybe they should make CDE an open source product as well as turning Java over to the IEEE to define and set standards for.

We are now replacing Sun Solaris servers with Dell Servers running Linux. At least we get better hardware support from Dell.

Bottom line, you can react emotionally with UNIX is better than Windows or vice versa, or you can just start questioning and thinking on your own.

[jnemeth1]

Sun is not nearly as bad as claimed

The price that that Sun charges for media is more then reasonable. In the media package, you get detailed installation documentation, release notes, etc. You also get CDs full of documentation in multiple languages, trial software, open source software, etc. With MS you only get the OS CD and nothing else. If you really don't like this, you can download ISO images for the OS CDs from Sun's website and burn them yourself (no waiting). Once you have one set of media, you can install it anywhere you have licences.

No major brand truely has openness in hardware. Just wait till you have to pay $400 to replace the power supply in a desktop machine made by Compaq. And, of course, if you want to upgrade the hardware, you will have to go back to the manufacturer. Sun is no worse than any other workstation manufacturers or high end PC manufacturer.

I can't say much about Sun support contracts. Never needed them, since I have found Sun hardware to be extremely reliable. I've only ever had problems with mechanical devices such as fans and hard drives. I can replace those myself for much less money then I would spend on any support contract. Also, I never buy hard drives from a computer manufacturer. They are all grossly overpriced. In general, you shouldn't buy accessories from a computer manufacturer (including RAM) unless you have money to burn.

OSes do not adopt hardware standards, hardware manufacturers do. Your comment about various OSes adopting the "PS/2 keyboard standard" is total nonsense; it is an apple and oranges comparison. Furthermore, the PS/2 keyboard port is not an industry standard. It is something that IBM invented for use with their PS/2 computer, hence the PS/2 part of the name. The rest of the PC industry has adopted it, but it is really just the PC AT keyboard (the only difference is the shape of the plug). On the other hand, modern Sun workstations (servers don't need dedicated keyboards) use USB keyboards, which is an industry standard. Do not mistake the PC industry for the entire computer industry.

VGA is not an industry standard, it is another thing that IBM invented for use with their PS/2 computers, which has been adopted by the rest of the PC industry. Again, do not mistake the PC industry for the entire computer industry. However, modern Suns do use VGA connectors for most of their video cards. Also, the 13W3 connector was used by a variety of workstation vendors, albeit with different pinouts. As for adaptors, you don't have to get them from Sun, you can get them from a variety of places (including various vendors on eBay for about $10). Besides, you don't need a KVM, just use a serial switch. Unlike most of the PC industry, Sun produces real servers.

The statement that Sun is a lot more monopolistic then Microsoft is total nonsense. Microsoft tries to sell you all the application software to use with their OS. Sun doesn't. Sun uses industry standard hardware interfaces such as USB and PCI. Its OS uses industry standard APIs such as POSIX and SUS, not proprietary ones like MS does.

You can run several OSes on Sun Sparc hardware including Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris. Also, Sun made changes to the Sparc processor, so that it could run a "portable" OS known as Windows NT. Word is that a port was done in the lab, but that it never saw the light of day. In the end, when Windows 2000 came out, MS dropped support for everything except PCs.

Given that Windows NT started biting into workstation sales in general, not just Sun, it could be said that it was Microsoft that picked a fight with workstation vendors. However, that is neither here nor there.

Sun has given the computing industry a lot. Although, the Sparc processor has fallen behind, Sun's roadmap shows that they are planning on fixing that. Solaris is generally recognised as the best. It certainly beats the crap out of Linux (which by the way, isn't even an OS). They have created several technologies which are now standard in the UNIX industry, such as NFS, NIS, and PAM. This is in addition to stuff used in the entire computing industry such as Java.

Linus Torvalds is no better then Scott McNealy. He is a dictator in the Linux world. Your example would have been better using somebody from the BSD world, since both FreeBSD and NetBSD are democratic (Theo de Raat is a dictator in the OpenBSD camp).

CDE is not a Sun product, it comes from the Open Software Foundation, thus Sun doesn't have the right to make it open source. However, as of Solaris 9, Sun is using GNOME as its GUI. IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) as its name implies does hardware standards, not software standards.

As for replacing Sun Sparcs running Solaris with Dells running Linux, have fun with your proprietary hardware, which comes with its own horror stories. As I pointed out above, Linux isn't an OS. An OS in the Linux world is known as distribution. Many of which can be quite proprietary in the way they are administered.

The bottom line is that before you can think on your own, you need to get your facts straight. Thinking on your own, is a good thing. But you definitely have to do your research and get your facts straight, so you don't end up spouting complete nonsense.