Comments on: Microsoft aims to topple Lotus' Domino

Introduces tools to help IBM Lotus Notes users to switch to its own communications and collaboration software.

[Jack K1]

Punters

Organizations with Domino that haven't bothered to develop any of their own collaborative applications would benefit by switching... to a nice POP3 mail server.

Organizations that have developed collaborative applications will quickly rediscover why they never bothered with Exchange. This reminds me of GE. They wanted to consolidate a half dozen or so e-mail systems, so they bought Exchange and everyone migrated. Two years later, they bought global licenses for Domino because they realized they needed effective collaborative components.

Domino is to workgroup collaboration what Excel is to paper spreadsheets. And Exchange? Imagine hand-coding your spreadsheets using ASP. Net?

[rcrusoe]

You are correct

Notes and Exchange are quite difference products. But many people just think of them as email and calendaring.

If Microsoft really pushes they can probably make big gains with companies that don't need "a highly secure, mail-enabled, multi-platform, open, client/server, distributed database management system."

Those that do, like the CIA, are likely to stick to Notes.

http://www.dominopower.com/issuesprint/issue200006/notes.html

[richto]

You dont know what you are talking about...

Your comments indicate that you have little knowledge of the subject. POP3 is not an enterprise solution.

POP-based and IMAP-based solutions are best suited for home and personal use where requirements for data recoverability and security are not high.

POP was designed to support offline mail processing. With POP, e-mail messages are removed from the server and put on the local POP client. This places the data management and security responsibility in the hands of the user.

And Applications in Notes / Domino! Imagine coding them in Domino and then porting them to Websphere if you want ongoing support...No dont imagine - you will have to...

Above all it is soooo appropriate the thing is called Lotus 'Domino' - Its always falling over. They still have massive stability problems on Windows 2003 that IBM seem unable to fix.

[zaznet]

Maybe this will help IBM

I'm hoping that Microsoft drawing attention to Notes will bring in some customers who could really make use of this tool. It's been many years since I've had a chance to play in Notes, but I've yet to see anything as flexible.

[richto]

Exchange has countless advantages

I cant see that anyone in their right mind on a greenfield site would use Notes. Exchange has countless advantages.

I can install Exchange and with less than 5 minutes configuration after the installation being finished from the CD I can be receiving my emails via push traffic to my Outlook inbox on my mobile phone with no other software required. Just try doing that on Notes!

[richto]

Notes is truely an awful platform

Organisations with Notes / Domino want to look at the many integration and collaboration advantages of Exchange as soon as possible. Notes / Domino is a truely awful, clunky product, everything about it sucks, and IBM cant even get the latest version stable on Windows 2003. As a classic example of its poor design you have to create, manage and send a physical 'ID' file to be stored locally for everyone who has an account! You cant even put it on the network - they 'dont support' that! The login doesnt integrate with Active Directory either. And its Webmail? Wow what an awful awful attempt at a webmail solution.

Exchange on the other hand has the best email client in existence, Outlook, and the best Webmail client too - Outlook Web Access. It also has unmatched integration and collaboration into Office, Project Server, Sharepoint Portal, Visual Studio, Fax, Voice Mail, Instant Messaging, Video Conferencing, etc, etc, and complete integration into the best RAD environment there is - Visual Studio .Net 2005. Dont fancy coding in Java? (although you can) How about Visual C++? Or Visual C# then? How about Visual Basic? etc. etc. Or all of them togther?

Domino / Notes is to Email what morse code is to communications. Clunky, painful to use and it works, but you wouldnt want to use it out of choice... Where as Exchange is just the best thing in existence right now for email and office groupware and integration.

[zizzybaloobah]

Have you even used or developed in Notes?

Who cares if Domino isn't stable on Windows 2003 (and I personally haven't found that to be the case) when you can easily run it a number of other OS platforms. Does Exchange run on Unix? on Linux? On AS400?

Regarding the use of physical ID, this is one of Notes strengths and is key the security of the Notes client -- and the main reason that the Notes client hasn't been susceptible to the multitude of problems experienced by Outlook users. And BTW, the id can be stored on a network drive, or even carried on removable media for users who switch from PC to PC. Users who prefer a slick UI may choose Outlook, but users who wish to be secure choose Notes.

Having used both Outlook's and Notes's web mail, I'd have to say neither is a sufficient substitution for their real counterparts, but at least Notes webmail can fully function in a browser other than Internet Explorer.

Regarding development, you can use all those mentioned languages and IDE's to develop Notes applications as well - you are not limited to Domino Designer.

I wonder if you even under the stand the basic fundamentals of Domino security and development, or are you simply a Micrsoft fan boy.

[Mooneyp]

It is amazing how opinions differ

I have worked with both Domino and Exchange for 10 years now. I know which is the better product, and want to set some facts straight regarding this post. Usually I wouldn't bother considering the name used to post.
1. I have NO stability isues with Domino on 2003 server, or on Linux, or on 14 other platforms that the product runs on.
2. You do not need to store the id file localy. Domino has been supporting roaming profiles for over 3 years. Look it up!
3. iNotes(Domino Web Access) -v- OWA. iNotes has more functionality, is richer and supports more browsers. It also offers encryption natively (using x509 or Domino RSA keys)
4. Integration - Are you serious? Yea, Exchange integrates with MS products, and little else. Domino supports integration with many open standards and many third party tools, including fax/sms/blackberry and is more secure. As for RAD - lets pick a worflow application, a simple one... see which platform gets it developed quickest. Or how about developing for Domino using Java/formulae/script or integrating with COM/VB .net etc - all can be done.
Notes as a mail client is not the best. But it is far more then that. Outlook as a mail client is not the best either - but it does little else.
Also, I have reviewed the MS migration Analyser already that was released today. Details here
http://www.pmooney.net/blogsphe.nsf/d6plinks/PMOY-6L2TN4#comments

[npole]

Mixed on Lotus Notes

I have tried to be a huge cheerleader for IBM products.. but they
make it very difficult. Where I would joingyou in IBM bashing is
the following :
- They rotate their sales reps more freq. than I change
underwear. The new reps no less about the product that a 1 year
admin, and everything is like pulling teeth.
_ They change product names and licensing very frequently as
well. This leads to confusion and frustration for end users.
_ They should have taken a note from the MSFT playbook and
integrated the entire Smart Suite into the Notes product back at
R5. This was a hughe mistake. They should look at building a
new "Smart Suite" on the Eclipse platform for the new version of
Notes (R8)
- The client is heavy, but it loads more documents faster than
Outlook. But is has better multi-platform support than MSFT
- IBM has ignored the "co-exisit" market place. With the amount
of virus traffic and other stuff, I don't want all my eggs in a MSFT
basket
_ IBMers are not at all open to criticisim. I have tried, they have
blur blinders on.


-
* You have to create, manage and send a physical 'ID' file to be
stored locally for everyone who has an account!
- I think this is a good feature. If you have administered a Notes
server, you would know that you can also store the credentials in
the names.nsf which means this will not be necessary.
* You cant even put it on the network - they 'dont support' that
This is not true. I have an ID share on the network.
* The login doesnt integrate with Active Directory either.
Hmm, don't let the monopoly of MSFT fool ya. There are AD sync
services and Windows 2000 Sync services. This is wrong
*And its Webmail? Wow what an awful awful attempt at a
webmail solution.
- Ok, I agree with this. They should use AJAX in the new version.
And they should hire a business partner to work on interface.

[MKenzie]

you forgot to add your smiley :)

I support a large organisation that uses both Notes and exchange. There must be a 1000 calls relating to exchange errors for every Notes call I get.

[ro53ben]

Migration Tool Results

With excitement I clicked to the announcement and through to download the tools. Instead of telling you what happened, I thought I'd show you. So here's the story in pictures. Remember, this is the final released version of the tools being run at a live production site of a major blue-chip corporation. I am a Lotus customer, not a supplier.

http://www.jaffacake.net/dx/notes-ms-migrations-tools-my-story

[richto]

Wrong Client

Try running it with a supported client version installed...

[Captain_Spock]

Who Cares About.....

... someone saying; "Exchange on the other hand has the best email client in existence, Outlook, and the best Webmail client too - Outlook Web Access. It also has unmatched integration and collaboration into Office, Project Server, Sharepoint Portal, Visual Studio, Fax, Voice Mail, Instant Messaging, Video Conferencing, etc, etc"; when there are a battery of other Collaborative Applications from IBM such as IBM® Workplace, and WebSphere:

http://www-142.ibm.com/software/sw-lotus/products/product4.nsf/wdocs/appdevhomepage

that will soon come with the integration of the O_P_E_N -- D_O_C_U_M_E_N_T -- F_O_R_M_A_T -- S_T_A_N_D_A_R_D_S (OPEN OFFICE) that Microsoft does not now support. Why do you think everyone else on planet T_H_R_E_E would want to follow you on your journey around the dark side of the "REDMOND" MOON. WHY DON'T YOU J_U_S_T -- G_E_T -- W_A_R_P_E_D if you do you might come to reality! ;-) Come in B_O_C_A -- R_O_T_O_N... We are hearing S_Y_M_P_H_O_N_I_E_S (DOMINOES)

[richto]

Which hardly anyone uses....

"battery of other Collaborative Applications from IBM such as IBM® Workplace, and WebSphere"

Which hardly anyone uses in comparison to MS Office for instance.

Who cares about 'Open Document' support. That's just some crap beign pushed by a few government departments trying to reduce their Microsoft license fees. If Microsoft dont support it then its irrelevant, unless it suddenly makes 10% market share (rather unlikely).

[Earl Benser]

I didn't know that Lotus was still around.

Where do they hide????????

[Captain_Spock]

Guess Which Groupware Product The Editor's Choice....

... a_w_a_r_d went to; read the article for yourselves here:

http://www.networkcomputing.com/showitem.jhtml?docid=1506f3

Now we all know why "they" want to be the COME BACK KIDS!

[richto]

2 years ago though...

I note this review was 2 years ago and it says:

"Microsoft finished close on IBM's heels. Exchange is capable of building a top-notch collaborative environment"

Perhaps they would have a different winner with Exchange 2003 SP2...

[richto]

Lotus,,,

IBM bought them and succesfully managed to bury the 123 Spreadsheet which was market leader when they purchased it. They are doing an exceptionally good job of following on with killing Notes off...

[luigiza]

Lotus,,,

I, as a Lotus Notes developer, agree 100% with you.
Sometime I think that IBM stands for:
I Bless Microsoft (for ***... me).

[Captain_Spock]

Innovations to the extent of....

... their "l_i_m_i_t_a_t_i_o_n_s"; what has happened since Excel, and even the "one" in Open Office have all "borrowed" from Lotus 1-2-3; did they find themselves so challenged by the "C_O_N_C_A_T_E_N_A_T_I_O_N" that they have settled for the "single" mouse click. Show the "economist" and the rest of the "world" how they can convert to Economic Rate of Return (ERR) from Internal Rate of Return (IRR). I do hope you do understand the drift; and, if I were you... I would consider a quick "crash" course or guess what, your Lunch, Dinner and your "K_O_N_A" will all go to some very enterprising youngsters in China, Russia or India! ;-)

[richto]

Microosft have led in innovation...

Office had led innovation in this field. No competitors have done anything more than try to copy Office. Microsoft spend $5 billion a year on R&D after all.

Office 12 again shows that they are continuing to improve and develop the end user experience and functionality while other poor copies such as Open Office just try to play catchup and copy every aspect of Microsoft's solutions. imo you get what you pay for...

[Captain_Spock]

Lotus: Some truth to the whole issue...

... that them at Lotus Corporation was running scared of the "C_A_R_B_O_N -- U_N_I_T_S" operating out of REDMOND and were only too glad that LOU GERSTNER extended the "golden" hand of friendship so that they can continue in their existence and for that reason; if none else, their survival was based on what they coined as their MOTTO the "L_O_T_U_S -- D_E_V_E_L_O_P_M_E_N_T -- C_O_N_T_I_N_U_U_M". Perhaps, the inevitable entry into the Space/Time Vertex is what is scaring the day-light out of the apparently Command Line Challenged "C_A_R_B_O_N -- U_N_I_T_S" from the REDMOND CAMPUS that still hold the opinions that we are still living in a "WINDOWS WORLD" as they dream. There is "LINUX" calling. Wake up and live!

[Captain_Spock]

Clones Will Always Be Clones....

... and that is why it is the considered opinion that (during the JEFF PAPOWS days at Lotus) a N_A_T_I_V_E -- P_O_R_T of the L_O_T_U_S -- S_A_M_E_T_I_M_E -- F_A_M_I_L_Y -- O_F -- P_R_O_D_U_C_T_S to OS/2 W_A_R_P would have sent a "N_O_T_E_S/S_M_A_R_T_S_U_I_T_E Real-Time Message and Hope to those users "struggling" with Windows and Office that help is soon on the way! This it is believe was a innovative misstep on the part of IBM/LOTUS. Yet, there is still time to escape the "REDMOND TIME-LOCK" if we are able to travel at W_A_R_P -- S_P_E_E_D! ;-)

[richto]

Not Very Likely...

Not very likely though when Microsoft have the best operating system, the best applications and the best server infrastructure and are cheapest to run and integrate best is it?

[misterpuppydog]

What do you think about Ray Ozzie joing Microsoft?

I'm currious to know what everyone thinks about Ray joining Microosft. Notes/Domino became one of the best collaboration platforms of all times under Ray and once he left IBM managed to really sink that ship. Now Ray is at Microsoft steering them and it makes me wonder if its time to think about Microsoft.

[misterpuppydog]

What do you think about Ray Ozzie joing Microsoft?

I'm currious to know what everyone thinks about Ray joining Microosft. Notes/Domino became one of the best collaboration platforms of all times under Ray and once he left IBM managed to really sink that ship. Now Ray is at Microsoft steering them and it makes me wonder if its time to think about Microsoft.

[Charleston Charge]

Great Addition

I think adding Ray along with some others and the reorganization that has taken place is pushing MS in the right direction.

[luigiza]

What do you think about Ray Ozzie joing Moscrosof?

You asked: 'what everyone thinks about Ray joining Microosft'.

Quite simple. They, in Redmond, at last hired The Teacher in workflow.

[Captain_Spock]

There iIs A Time And Place For Everything....

... and Everyone; just as Ray Ozzie is to Notes while he was at Lotus... the same should be thought of Mike Zissman as to Lotus Instant Messaging (Lotus SameTime) at IBM. How far would you expect to find the "APPLE" from the "TREE"... and in squeezing two different species of apples just what do you get regardless of whether you squeeze them near to the trees or at different factories miles apart (apple juice and not orange juice from one); in this case L_O_T_U_S -- N_O_T_E_S -- S_Q_U_A_R_E_D perhaps, that's what I think about Ray Ozzie joing Microsoft?

[Captain_Spock]

Do They Think That They Can Re-Write History!

... here is where it all began; "The History of Notes and Domino - Notes and Domino began in the work of Ray Ozzie, Tim Halvorsen, and Len Kawell, first on PLATO Notes at the University of Illinois and later on DECNotes. Lotus founder Mitch Kapor saw the potential in Ozzie's collaboration project and the rest is history":

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/lotus/library/ls-NDHistory/

[laloooji]

When did you start working for Microsoft?

I did not know Microsoft pays employees to pu browse and post marketing talk in news.com

[David Arbogast]

Give it up

Just what conclusive evidence have you found to support your biased theory?

[Arydus]

Yes, but how well does it work?

If it's as good as the user migration tool for the NT to 2000 change then I wouldn't touch it. That was one of the worst migration tools I've ever had the displeasure of using.

Besides... who'd ever want to migrate from Domino and then have to worry about viruses and hackers using the security holes in the M$ products? ;-)

[Captain_Spock]

It Is INCOMPREHENSIBLE...

... Why ARTHUR ANDERSEN LLP which conducted a LOTUS NOTES SEMINAR in NEW YORK on FEBRUARY 7, 1995 did not consider a closer COOPERATION, COLLABORATION AND COORDINATION with British Airways (yet another known Lotus Notes User)... maybe this time around they will be working closer with the "JAPANESE" and the "FRENCH" when travelers around the world would once again experience travel onboard that version of the "CONCORDE". Wouldn't it be nice to be able to just r-e-p-l-i-c-a-t-e your data half-way around the world. I just can't wait to see how quickly (at "Warp" Speed perhaps) the next C_O_N_C_O_R_D_E will get us to H_A_N_N_O_V_E_R... can you! ;-)

[Captain_Spock]

GOING FOR "DOUBLE" GOLD !

Guess which O_P_E_N -- D_O_C_U_M_E_N_T -- F_O_R_M_A_T -- S_T_A_N_D_A_R_D_S supported application can get you the real thing (for your feasibility studies - "Cuyuni gold mining project: http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article?id=41843990 ) this year not the next: L_O_T_U_S -- W_O_R_K_P_L_A_C_E! So, that's your DOUBLE GOLD; IBM WORKPLACE and the REAL THING, Now, what't the THIRD? The secret is in the FEASIBILITY STUDIES! Let's see what your answers are!

[Captain_Spock]

WYSIWYG!

So, what are the projections... As it has always been in the tradition, with L_O_T_U_S -- 1_2_3: WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. If drilling in "AURORA" (which one, the "GOLD MINE" or the "OS"! ;-) will get you GOLD... why go to XCHANGE (for Silver) when you are certain to obtain GOLD with/from H_A_N_N_O_V_E_R! ;-) ;-) ;-)